Ep. 4: A Spoonful of Atropine Helps the Murder Go Down

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Welcome to M4 Medicine, mystery,
mayhem, and sometimes murder.

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I'm Andrea Marciano and RN with
35 years of experience across

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various fields.
From direct patient care in

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hospitals to home health,
geriatrics, and injury medicine,

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I face life, death, and
everything in between.

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And I'm Crystal Miller and RN
with 13 1/2 years of experience.

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My work spans home health,
Hospice, emergency care,

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geriatrics, and occupational
health.

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From the chaos of trauma based
quiet moments with patients,

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I've seen stories that defy
explanations.

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We've been friends for over 25
years and as nurses we've shared

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countless stories that have left
us and our families speechless.

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Now we're bringing those stories
and many more to you in

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medicine, mystery, mayhem, and
sometimes murder.

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Each week, we'll uncover cases
that challenge the boundaries of

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medicine, sharing the human
stories behind the science.

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From puzzling medical mysteries
to shocking real life crimes,

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we'll bring you stories that'll
leave you questioning everything

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you thought you knew while.
We're both experiencing these

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nurses.
We want to make it clear we're

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not here to give medical advice.
This podcast is about

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storytelling, education and
exploration, not diagnosing or

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treating medical conditions.
This is medicine, mystery,

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mayhem and sometimes murder.
Let's dive in.

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Hey Crystal, how are you doing?
I'm doing well.

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How are you?
I am very well, thank you.

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Anything exciting going on in
your life?

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Nothing other than starting to
get menopause symptoms. 0 out of

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10 do not recommend.
Do not recommend.

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Trust me, I get it because I've
been 0 out of 10 in this

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experience for I don't even want
to think about how many years

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now, but it's been more than
enough.

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And we were, I was talking with
a friend of mine who's on the

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very outside edge of it right
now, and she was saying, how

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fair is this that we get to have
all of these experiences of

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women that just are bogus?
Yeah, they're they're havoc.

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They're mayhem.
They are.

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They are.
Yeah.

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And I just don't get it.
Sometimes I just wish I wasn't

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involved in this process.
There's not.

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It's not like there's a vote
that we get to have, is there?

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Because as you said earlier, we
vote no, thank you.

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I'm.
No, I'm fine.

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I would be so happy to never
have hot flashes.

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I'd be so happy to have full
control of my brain.

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I would be so happy to be able
to think of the words I want to

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say and not suddenly spout out
some word that has nothing to do

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with anything I'm even talking
about.

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And I was telling you earlier
also, the itchiness makes me

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crazy.
Starts in your ears.

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Look for that.
That's fun times.

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So ears start itching and then
kind of it's global, at least

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for me.
I am itchy all the time.

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And then there's the tinnitus
and then there's do you want

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anything else?
Because.

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Thank you.
As our listeners may not know,

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we have 10 years between US11
well. 11 because you're October,

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Yeah, No, it's.
Ten.

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Yeah, it's 11.
Regret because we're so close.

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That's right back up the train
there, sister. 10 for me.

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But yeah, it's amazing what
these next 10 years, how much

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fun you'll have.
Oh, I'm so excited.

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I feel so blessed and lucky.
Yes, well, I'm here to welcome

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you into the menopausal.
Experience you.

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Well, as our show is not about
menopause, which is good because

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it would just be far too
frustrating and we have so much

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frustration in the world right
now, we don't.

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Need to add any to do yeah?
Well, one of the things today

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that we're doing is diving into
the shadowy side of medicine,

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which is murder.
And we talked, right?

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We had talked originally that we
were going to address murder as

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one of our topics.
It won't be our only one, but

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we'd like to welcome you back to
the M4 Podcast.

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And we do explore the
fascinating intersection of

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medicine, mystery, mayhem, and
as is today, the special

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occasion of murder.
Crystal and I both really listen

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to a lot of murder podcasts, but
we didn't want that only thing

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that we focus on because we
think there's just a lot more to

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talk about.
And with our backgrounds, we

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feel like that's really
important today.

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We have this case.
I just say this all the time

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when we talk about stuff.
This case to me is just mind

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boggling.
And I don't know what mind

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boggling really means, but my
mind, maybe that's why I can't

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think of all the you're boggled.
I'm boggled.

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I'm constantly boggled.
And I am on so many levels.

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And that's a personal story.
Another another podcast for that

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one as well.
But so far we have discussed and

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the mystery and intrigue of
medical things that have done a

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rye, if you will, and there's
chaos really every day.

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I've said this before, but every
day I wonder how does anyone

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actually have a body that
functions correctly throughout

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the day?
Even with things like menopause

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and things that are chronic, we,
we survive day-to-day with a

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body that can go haywire at any
moment.

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And, and a lot of times I just
think about that going, I don't

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get how even in this case, so
many things can go correctly to,

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to get through a day.
The thing that we're stepping in

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today, as I said, is murder.
And sometimes it intersects with

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healthcare.
When it does, it captivates the

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public imagination.
And sometimes I think that we're

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just a bunch of sickos because
we're so fascinated by how

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things are going wrong.
Right?

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Sure.
Yeah.

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Yeah.
So I'd like you to.

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I'd like to take you through a
guided meditation.

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Actually, just kidding.
It's not a guided meditation

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because.
It wouldn't work for me.

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It wouldn't.
That's true.

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But just imagine, and we've both
experienced this.

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We're in a bustling hospital.
The monitors are humming, people

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are murmuring, staff people
talking quietly.

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There's that low rumble of sound
that you hear all the time.

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I don't think there's ever been
a time in a hospital that it's

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been quiet.
Maybe at night.

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Well, no, because you still got
the monitors.

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Even then, even then, there's
just nothing.

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There's no time in the hospital
that I'm aware of that is just

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totally quiet.
There's just too much going on.

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Doctors and nurses rush from
patient to patient administering

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standard care, life saving care
in the hospital.

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We really all kind of hold on to
that hope of recovery and

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healing.
It's always that's what the goal

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is to help to people get through
the times that are hard because

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there.
I don't think I can think of a

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time that someone's been in the
hospital, myself included.

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That is because I was looking
for a nice vacation, right?

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I know let me go to a 4*5*0*
hospital.

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Any of that.
Beneath the surface of all of

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this that goes on, we expect
certain things, we expect

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certain sounds, we expect hope
and hopefully healing.

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But sometimes secrets may lurk.
And what do we do when medicine

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and malice collide?
There's a lot of a lot of times

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that that can happen.
There have been a lot of stories

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throughout history that are
factual and some that are

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fictional that talk about things
that happen.

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The mysteries and murder within
the halls and walls of hospitals

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in clinics, right?
I mean, we've heard of a lot of

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them, probably watched many of
them.

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Everything from something like
murder, She Wrote to having that

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be in the hospital or Matlock,
who goes into different things

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and looks at cases of murder and
mystery.

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And then you've got your things
like the show house and, and

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other kinds of shows that are
not, in my view, realistic,

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right?
And and but.

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Everything's not rhabdomyosis.
I I'm as surprised as you you

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are, but no, it's amazing how
many people anyway.

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But these stories have gone on
really since the beginning of

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time when medicine has started.
Some of times the criminals that

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commit these acts of murder in
hospitals are called angels of

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death.
It's usually something that is a

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surprise to people where the
person starts out and they look

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like they're serving the
patient, but then end up

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stepping aside or stray.
And it really, as you listen to

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the story that I'm going to
bring up in a few minutes, I, I

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want you to think about the ways
that you think that someone can

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go from maintaining their oath,
as in do no harm to the things

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that make them start to murder
In, in history, there's some

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real life cases that have
shocked the world.

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One of them is the case of
Doctor Harold Shipman.

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He was a British physician and
he was convicted of killing

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multiple patients under his
care.

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That's a case we may talk about
later, but it's one of the

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things that some people know in
history and there's a variety of

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them through history that has
happened.

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And then you've got people in
the hospital that are considered

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medical detectives, and those
are the forensic teams and the

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medical examiners.
So when somebody dies, as most

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people know if if they meet
certain parameters, if they're

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under 80 and they have no known
medical condition or maybe they

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had a condition that that was
thought to have been able to be

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cured, but they suddenly died,
then those kinds of cases are

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looked at to see what went
wrong.

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And then there's a whole bunch
of potentials of what might

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happen next.
There's learning conferences,

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there's things like that.
We we need to know what happened

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so we know how to prevent it
from happening again if

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possible.
And sometimes just the body is

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so stressed that it cannot
recover from something that we

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probably think it should cover
recover from.

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And then they were they are able
to these medical detectives, if

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you will, are able to tell if
there is something that's

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suspicious or if there is
something that is an unexpected

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air quote expected outcome.
So sometimes that can happen

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too.
And I like to think of them been

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blending science and sleuthing
because I enjoy sleuthing.

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I love finding out the little
details and facts, right, which

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is why we're here, right.
And then as we mentioned,

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there's the fictional portrayals
when I think anybody who watches

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a show about their specialty,
like medicine or maybe you're

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car mechanic and you watch a
show about it and they're like,

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that's not what really happens.
We talked about it.

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That's not what really happens.
Or law enforcement or whatever.

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We on The Who actually practice
know what's more likely to

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happen.
And sometimes the portrayals of

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these shows are are good and
they seem really on track.

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And other times I'm like, do
they even know what side of a

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Band-Aid you would stick to a
person?

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I don't.
Know.

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But but these shows do often
dramatize the tension between

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life saving care and lethal
intent.

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They do it everything with music
and storyline and and things

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like that.
But you know, life isn't really

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quite that linear.
There's usually a few other

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twists and turns.
But do you have any idea,

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Crystal, or have you ever even
thought of what would drive a

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medical professional to cross
the ethical line between caring

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and killing?
Have you ever thought about

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that?
Not in the sense of like sitting

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down and saying to myself, now,
why would Jane go from being a

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nurse to being a killer, right?
I've only ever asked it

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rhetorically in passing, right?
Like, why don't you do that?

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And then moving on.
Right.

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Exactly.
Because I mean, I think to me,

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for people who do things like
that, the rest of us can't

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really understand because it
doesn't make sense to us.

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And that's that's true for any
kind of killer I think that we

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hear about.
Most of us cannot relate unless

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of course, it's in self-defense
or for our children, our Mama

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bear comes out and that's
different.

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But in cases where there doesn't
seem to be a real gain, it makes

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it very to me, confusing and
complicated.

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I don't I don't see how they can
step over that line.

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Right.
Yeah, I don't either.

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There's been a lot of study
about this in in murder

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generally, but also in the
medical related murders.

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And psychologists and
criminologists have analyzed the

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00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:05,720
motives.
They range anything from power

229
00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:09,960
and control to sometimes the
person who does these medical

230
00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:13,080
killings feel like they're doing
a mercy killing because the

231
00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:15,640
person is suffering too much or
they're too difficult for their

232
00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:18,160
family or whatever.
And so it's going to help and

233
00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:20,000
sometimes it's for a financial
gain.

234
00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:22,680
And we're going to be talking
about a few of these cases

235
00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,520
throughout time, only one today,
but overtime we will.

236
00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,560
And it's, I find it very
interesting to see who looks

237
00:12:29,560 --> 00:12:31,760
like they're motivated by
certain things.

238
00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:33,400
But of course, we can never
know.

239
00:12:33,560 --> 00:12:37,080
But many times the warning signs
that these people are doing the

240
00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:39,520
things that they're doing are
overlooked or they're

241
00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:42,120
rationalized.
And you say something along the

242
00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:44,000
lines, well, that can't be
right.

243
00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,160
That can't be what happened.
That doesn't make any sense.

244
00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:49,280
It's one of the things to me
that makes these crimes

245
00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:54,760
especially chilling because we,
we don't expect something like

246
00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:56,000
that.
We don't think it's going to

247
00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,120
happen because that isn't what
we promised to do.

248
00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:03,200
And we know now, especially in
modern hospitals, there's a

249
00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,600
whole range of safeguards to
prevent harm, everything from

250
00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:09,680
the training to technology that
tracks the medicine and

251
00:13:09,680 --> 00:13:11,040
treatment.
I was telling a friend of mine

252
00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,840
the other day that when I was in
nursing school, there was a

253
00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:17,880
couple that was passing meds to
each other, medication, narcotic

254
00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:21,360
medication.
And it used to be so much easier

255
00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:25,840
to do because we would
literally, we have a key on a

256
00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:30,160
bungee cord thing that the nurse
who is in charge of the key for

257
00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:32,920
that shift, it wasn't even the
director of nursing, It was just

258
00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:35,920
one of us.
And we would rotate and we'd get

259
00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:38,080
the key and we were in charge of
the drug cards.

260
00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,000
And sometimes we'd go home with
a key.

261
00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,200
We'd have to come back, bring
the key, but that was how it

262
00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:44,600
was.
And we just counted.

263
00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:47,040
We would say, OK, we gave this
to this patient.

264
00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:50,120
We'd write it down.
Nobody ever really checked to

265
00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:52,240
see if the patient got it.
They didn't check to see if it

266
00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:54,800
was in our pockets.
They didn't check any of that.

267
00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:59,120
We just were either trustworthy
or not I suppose.

268
00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,680
But this particular couple I had
been in school with was passing

269
00:14:02,680 --> 00:14:05,560
to each other and and so they
would go back-to-back shifts.

270
00:14:05,680 --> 00:14:08,640
Ultimately they got fired and
they actually never even took

271
00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:13,080
boards because they did this
criminal act before they were

272
00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:14,640
even officially nurses.
Oh my.

273
00:14:14,680 --> 00:14:16,920
Gosh.
And I thought, gosh, you go

274
00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:19,680
through all of this for that.
And then of course, we went to

275
00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:22,560
jail and one of them went to
prison and and it was, it was

276
00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:23,920
wild.
I don't get it.

277
00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:28,120
But now in hospitals there are a
whole lot more safeguards, and

278
00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,200
it's a lot harder to get
medication you shouldn't have.

279
00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,680
It's a lot harder to not give
medication when you should, and

280
00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:37,360
that kind of thing still
possible, I suppose.

281
00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,840
And that's one of the reasons
that people who have malicious

282
00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:43,960
intent should be watched and
should be.

283
00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:48,480
These things should be tracked.
But sometimes processes still

284
00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:52,360
don't work.
But in medicine, especially as

285
00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,120
this is what we're talking about
today, there are people, men and

286
00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:57,760
women, and we trust them with
our lives.

287
00:14:57,760 --> 00:14:59,560
Right.
When you go into the hospital,

288
00:14:59,960 --> 00:15:01,520
yeah.
When you go into a hospital, you

289
00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:05,600
expect in many cases to come out
better than when you got there,

290
00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:10,120
or at least more stable, right?
I mean, to not have that

291
00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:13,840
expectation, obviously most of
us probably wouldn't go to a

292
00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:17,360
hospital if we think that we
might live or we might not.

293
00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,440
That wouldn't really instill
very much confidence.

294
00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:23,720
But there are people who are in
the medical field that go rogue

295
00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:27,240
for whatever reason, and their
leave, they use their medical

296
00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:29,840
know how and they try to grit
away with murder.

297
00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:34,600
The modus operandi or MO of a
serial killer can range wildly.

298
00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:38,520
And if you think about the kind
of killers that most of us have

299
00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,320
heard of at different times,
there's some people will snatch

300
00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:43,800
their victim, they'll they'll be
kidnappers and they'll take them

301
00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,120
right off the street.
They'll break into houses,

302
00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,960
they'll do, they'll mug people,
they'll do things like that.

303
00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,560
And those are the things that we
kind of are more used to hearing

304
00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,000
about.
And they might have a weapon of

305
00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:57,640
choice.
That could be a gun, a knife, a

306
00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:00,160
hammer or ligature.
And there might be a sexual

307
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:02,120
element.
Sometimes there is, sometimes

308
00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:03,920
there isn't.
There can be torture or

309
00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:06,400
mutilation.
One of the things that is the

310
00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:10,640
less discussed kind of silly
serial killer is the one that's

311
00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,120
different from usual.
And they don't stop the streets.

312
00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,880
They don't go out anywhere to
get them.

313
00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,120
They wait until somebody comes
to them.

314
00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:22,240
And as I say, a lot of times
they've been called Angels of

315
00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,720
Mercy and I have an issue with
that state that title because

316
00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:27,680
Angel of Mercy sounds like it's
good thing, right?

317
00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,960
Yeah, yeah, Angel of General
sounds like it's a good thing.

318
00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,440
Yeah, Angel's here.
Wait a minute.

319
00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,000
This Angel is not the same
thing.

320
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,760
So I don't like the title.
And it's actually been shifted

321
00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:43,120
in most cases away from Angel of
Mercy to healthcare serial

322
00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,920
killers or medical serial
killers because an Angel of

323
00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:48,760
Mercy, it makes it sound just
too sweet.

324
00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:50,640
Yeah, even an Angel of death,
right?

325
00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:53,200
Just still sounds like it's like
sweet.

326
00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,720
It's like Pixies or fairies.
Yeah, it's giving it a lot of

327
00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,720
leniency and credit for actually
sort of doing something good, it

328
00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,560
sounds like, right.
But today what we're referring

329
00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:06,000
to is the very rare cases of
doctors, nurses and caregivers

330
00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:08,839
who exploit their positions of
trust.

331
00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:10,520
Because that's what it's about,
isn't it?

332
00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:15,839
Trust and then they they
complete their own nefarious and

333
00:17:15,839 --> 00:17:19,520
murderous ends.
It's just, it's hard to talk

334
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:23,079
about this for me a little bit
because as a nurse, the thought

335
00:17:23,079 --> 00:17:26,880
of these people walking in and
doing these things hurts me

336
00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,840
because that's not what we
commit to.

337
00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:31,560
That's not what we're trained to
do.

338
00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:35,280
That's not what I would ever
want to be associated with.

339
00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:37,480
When somebody says nurse, I
would hate to have them think

340
00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:41,560
that because I'm a nurse, wow,
I'm probably trying to pull one

341
00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,920
over on somebody or kill someone
or yeah, which I don't.

342
00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:49,600
But but these people in the care
environment who do target the

343
00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:55,040
vulnerable patients and usually
they go for the most vulnerable

344
00:17:55,360 --> 00:17:57,640
and they kill them, as we
mentioned before, for a variety

345
00:17:57,640 --> 00:17:59,560
of reasons.
They like the feeling of God

346
00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,800
like power, a financial benefit
or just purely because they're

347
00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:08,120
psychopaths.
And research has told us that

348
00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,560
the majority of the murders take
place in the hospital settings

349
00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:16,040
because it's a medical murder.
20% occur in nursing homes and

350
00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,720
the remaining 6% within the
victims homes themselves.

351
00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:23,680
So that surprised me actually
that they've in studies and I

352
00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:27,240
can't remember how old the study
was, but then only 6% of them

353
00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,160
were in their own home.
I agree and.

354
00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:34,280
Particularly because home health
and Hospice is so like you're on

355
00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,400
your own all the time.
It's, I don't want to say it's

356
00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:40,280
unsupervised, but I mean it, but
it is unsupervised in the sense

357
00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,400
of nobody's actually in the room
with you, nobody's watching you

358
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,000
do your job.
You don't run across your

359
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:47,040
colleagues.
You know what I mean?

360
00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:50,680
It's just you and your patient
and maybe their daughter or

361
00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:52,080
their neighbor is sometimes
right.

362
00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,040
The more, the more often than
not it's you and your patient.

363
00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:57,680
Right.
And I think the main, the main

364
00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:03,040
reason there's not more in homes
is because the availability of

365
00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,240
the medications needed to do
these sorts of things are

366
00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,800
greater in the hospital, unless
the nurse is carrying around

367
00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:12,560
their own vials of things, then
it would be much harder.

368
00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,160
I think it's still even harder,
like I say, in the hospital than

369
00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:17,760
it used to be, but it's even
easier than it would be in a

370
00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,200
home because there would be so
many limited supplies.

371
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,480
So that's the way I look at it
is maybe that's why it's a lower

372
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:25,760
level.
And as you also said, though,

373
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,280
there are many times that there
are people there.

374
00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:29,960
Sometimes they are in the
hospital too.

375
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,760
But have you ever as a nurse,
then you know I need you to step

376
00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:34,480
out because I'm going to do
blah, blah, blah.

377
00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:35,800
Yeah.
So then nobody.

378
00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,000
No, that hospitals are boring.
You know, I was in a hospital

379
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,840
recent, I guess it wasn't so
much recently anymore but

380
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,960
recently ish for 9 days after I
had a complication with surgery.

381
00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:48,280
And I'm not going to ask
somebody to sit there and be in

382
00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:50,240
there with me all the time.
It's boring.

383
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:52,360
Go live your life and don't be
bored.

384
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,720
I don't have a choice.
I have to be here, but oh, don't

385
00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:57,960
be here.
And when I don't feel well, the

386
00:19:57,960 --> 00:19:59,800
last thing I want is somebody
staring at me anyway.

387
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:00,720
No kidding.
No kidding.

388
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,320
But one of the things I wanted
to mention relating to these

389
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,360
medical murders is that more
than 50% of the killings are

390
00:20:08,360 --> 00:20:11,120
carried out using drugs or a
lethal objection of some

391
00:20:11,120 --> 00:20:14,760
description.
So that that makes sense to me.

392
00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:18,160
And as we talked about, victims
are generally elderly or

393
00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,320
extremely ill and their deaths
are easily explained.

394
00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:24,440
It's rare that someone who's
going around killing these

395
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:28,040
people kill someone that is
perfectly healthy, that maybe

396
00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:32,200
just came in for a surgery to
fix a broken arm and everything

397
00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:33,440
else was fine, but then they
died.

398
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:37,160
It's more often someone who was
compromised and it and it

399
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,440
wouldn't necessarily be checked
into.

400
00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,280
One of the things that I read
was that most the way most

401
00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:45,560
medical serial killers are
caught is when a significant

402
00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:50,520
cluster of deaths begin to raise
suspicions or deadly substances

403
00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:52,840
are detected after toxicology
tests.

404
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,920
I as I read different stories
about this, I've seen that where

405
00:20:55,920 --> 00:21:00,040
all of a sudden you happen to
notice that on Susie Q's shift,

406
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:01,760
a bunch of people die every
time.

407
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,120
So they start putting it
together.

408
00:21:04,120 --> 00:21:06,400
And sometimes these killers,
I've read some stories about

409
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,440
them where they actually just
changed hospitals frequently

410
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,160
enough that nobody can watch the
tracks.

411
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:12,960
That's so counterintuitive to
me.

412
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,480
I'm just just you saying that my
thought is like, I don't want

413
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:18,480
anybody to die on my shift.
No.

414
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,600
My shift.
I know it's definitely.

415
00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:26,800
The idea of of somebody having a
shift and and your deaths are

416
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,240
become more frequent is just
like is that's a nightmare to

417
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:34,440
me, an absolute nightmare.
Like like you said, it hurts.

418
00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:36,320
It's like I don't no, no, no
please.

419
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:37,920
Please, please, please stay
alive.

420
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:40,320
Please please please.
Please, I mean, I'll do my job

421
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:42,480
to to help assist with that, but
please stay alive.

422
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:45,200
Yeah, really.
It's definitely a thing we like

423
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:50,960
and it's bad for numbers anyway.
But but it's truly a sick

424
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,760
concept, right?
I mean, for most of us, we just

425
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:57,560
don't get it.
But then again, murder's a sick

426
00:21:57,560 --> 00:21:59,640
business, right?
Yeah, I think that's the truth.

427
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,720
Today we're going to talk about
the vile deeds of one of the

428
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,800
most prolific ever healthcare
serial killers.

429
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:11,080
Her name was Jane Taupin.
Or get this, Jolly Jane.

430
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:13,160
Oh wow.
Right.

431
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:17,360
She spent six years in the late
19th century poisoning infirmed

432
00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:20,880
piece of people in Boston, MA.
This is her ambition, she

433
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,440
stated, to have killed more
people, helpless people, than

434
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,240
any other man or woman, whoever
lived.

435
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:29,360
Wow, that was her mission
statement.

436
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:35,880
I bet she didn't take him past
the NCLEX which is the board to

437
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,800
get your license.
Dear listeners, so so it is.

438
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,760
As you might imagine I went down
a bit of a rabbit hole for these

439
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,800
resources I use today, but the
primary sources were magazine

440
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,080
article called The 10 most
Prolific Medical Serial Killers

441
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,960
of All Time.
It was an Overview and analysis

442
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:57,520
of Crime and investigation of
the UK article called 21 Evil

443
00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,640
Doctors and Nurses who are also
Brutal Serial Killers from

444
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,360
allisinteresting.com. 17 Serial
Killer nurses who killed

445
00:23:04,360 --> 00:23:06,600
patients and hospitals by
ranker.com.

446
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,960
I looked up Jane Taupin in
Wikipedia because who doesn't

447
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:16,160
and and jolly Jane Taupin, the
Killer nurse obsessed with death

448
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,680
from the New England Historical
Society and a book called Jane

449
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:24,520
Taupin A Greed, Power and Lust
Serial Killer by Michael Potts.

450
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,120
Those were my primary resources
and there were 10 more.

451
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:29,840
I was shocked.
Wow.

452
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:36,680
So anyway, go back with me.
In history, Jane Taupin was born

453
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,760
with the name of Hanora Kelly.
Oh, OK, right.

454
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:42,560
Big leap.
Well, it'll make sense.

455
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,560
It'll make sense in a minute.
But at first I thought what that

456
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,480
that makes no sense at all.
At any rate, she was born on May

457
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:55,080
31st in 1854.
She lived until August 17th of

458
00:23:55,120 --> 00:23:57,840
1938.
She was an American serial

459
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,040
killer.
She killed 12 people in

460
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,320
Massachusetts between 1895 and
19 O1.

461
00:24:03,360 --> 00:24:07,360
She confessed, though, to
killing 31, and she's suspected

462
00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:10,760
to have killed up to 100 people,
100 people.

463
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,160
When you think about the serial
killers that have been targeted

464
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,440
in many of these shows,
podcasts, movies, books,

465
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:21,440
whatever, we're talking about
serial killers of maybe three to

466
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:26,240
10 people on average, because I
think it takes more than three

467
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,080
to become a serial killer.
Many of them I think.

468
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:30,560
There's a time, I think there's
a time frame limit also, but I'm

469
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,080
not.
Oh, yeah, it's true.

470
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:33,800
They have to do it within a
certain time frame.

471
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,040
If they've taken too big a
break, then they're not a serial

472
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:37,520
killer.
There's just a killer again,

473
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:39,360
right?
Whatever.

474
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:44,440
But this woman is suspected of
killing more than 100 people.

475
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,840
And she did all of these
killings in her capacity as a

476
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,400
nurse, and she targeted patients
and their family members.

477
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:53,440
Wild.
Right.

478
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:58,360
And later she admitted that she
committed some of these murders

479
00:24:58,360 --> 00:25:02,080
to satisfy a sexual fetish.
Yeah, it gets a little creepy.

480
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,760
I guess that's easy to say
because she's a killer.

481
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:10,720
So she she was born as, as I
said, Honora Kelly.

482
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,000
She was the daughter of some
Irish immigrants.

483
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:17,320
Her mother Bridget Kelly died of
tuberculosis when when Jane or

484
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:21,240
Honora was very young, her
father Peter was well known as

485
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,600
an eccentric and abusive
alcoholic.

486
00:25:24,120 --> 00:25:27,880
People nicknamed her father and
this is one of those triads that

487
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:29,520
happen when people become
murderers.

488
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:33,320
But this part of her triad she
was nicknamed or he was

489
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:35,880
nicknamed Kelly the crack as in
crackpot.

490
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:37,840
Jane's father was considered a
crackpot.

491
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:43,000
I never looked this up, but in
later years when they started

492
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,360
talking about Jane and her
history, it was said that her

493
00:25:46,360 --> 00:25:50,600
father had sewn his own eyelids
closed while working as a

494
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,600
tailor.
OK, how does one do that?

495
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,640
I think I would notice if I were
sewing my eyelids closed, but

496
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,720
just this is some of what she
was raised around and through.

497
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:06,800
So it is and so night and excuse
me. 1860, which was a few years

498
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,200
after Kelly's death or Kelly's
wife's death.

499
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,480
He surrendered her to the two
youngest children, 8 year old

500
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:16,320
Dalia and six year old Henora to
the Boston Female Asylum.

501
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,400
It was an orphanage for indigent
female children.

502
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:21,400
Mr. Kelly never saw these kids
again.

503
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:26,600
Documents from the asylum noted
that Dalia and Henora were

504
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,760
rescued from a very miserable
home.

505
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,720
Quotes no records existed
experience during the no time in

506
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,800
the asylum, but reportedly Delia
became a prostitute while the

507
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,720
older sister Nellie who was not
entered into this home because I

508
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,520
guess she was too old.
Nellie was later committed to

509
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,960
insane asylum, which we don't
call that anymore, but that's

510
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,880
what they called it.
Then in 1862, less than two

511
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,880
years after being abandoned by
her father, Hanorah was placed

512
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:56,560
with as an indentured servant in
the home of Miss CN Toppen

513
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:58,320
Toppin.
Does that sound familiar?

514
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,200
So.
And that was in Lowell, MA.

515
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,840
They were never.
She was never formally adopted

516
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,560
by the Toppins, but she took on
their surname to distance

517
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,240
herself from her former family,
and she eventually became known

518
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:13,880
as Jane Toppin.
Now I feel like I had remembered

519
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,600
the name Jane was a family name,
but I'm I'm not sure that's

520
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:19,960
accurate, but I thought I'd seen
that somewhere.

521
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,240
The toppings already had a
daughter, Elizabeth and Hanora,

522
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,800
or now Jane was on good terms
with the daughter.

523
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,360
In 1885, Toppin began training
as a nurse at Cambridge

524
00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:32,000
Hospital.
And unlike her early years,

525
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,680
where she was described as
brilliant and terrible, who

526
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:37,680
knows what that looked like?
Because again, they had no

527
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,920
records of her time in this, in
this insane asylum, if you will,

528
00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:43,640
or orphanage.
They apparently she came with a

529
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,680
history and.
We'll take a little baggage with

530
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:48,240
her.
Yeah, a little baggage, a little

531
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,440
baggage.
And at the hospital, though,

532
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:52,400
when she was training as a
nurse, she was well liked.

533
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,800
She was bright, friendly, and
that's when she earned her

534
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,000
nickname as Jolly Jane because
that's how she came across.

535
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,600
And once she became close with
her patients, she picked her

536
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,520
favorite ones and they were
normally elderly and very sick.

537
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,880
Now I can almost not read this,
but during her residency she

538
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,640
used her patients as Guinea pigs
and experience experiments with

539
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,560
morphine and atropine.
She altered their prescribed

540
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,360
dosages to see what it did to
their nervous system.

541
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:20,640
Oh my goodness.
Right.

542
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,720
And she spent considerable time
alone with her patients, making

543
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,080
up fake charts, medicating them
to drift in and out of

544
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,440
consciousness and even getting
into bed with them.

545
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:30,640
Oh, boy.
Right.

546
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,080
So as would happen, the hospital
administration grew concerned

547
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,160
over her obsession with
autopsies.

548
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,680
Apparently she just always
wanted to be able to see an

549
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,480
autopsy.
Whenever one came up, she wanted

550
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,640
to see it, but the hospital.
So they were a little concerned

551
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:45,160
about that.
The administration said, well,

552
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,160
that seems a little odd, but
they didn't know she

553
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:50,840
experimented with morphine and
atropine on her elderly

554
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,400
patients, which probably would
have brought them a little more

555
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:54,680
concern.
Yeah.

556
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,720
So this is something that I
thought was was really scary.

557
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:03,560
One patient, Amelia Finney, had
an operation in 1887, and

558
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,480
afterwards, she said Jane had
given her a dose of bitter

559
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,160
medicine, causing her to lose
consciousness.

560
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,960
Jane climbed into her bed and
kissed her all over her face.

561
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,000
But something startled her Jane
and she stopped.

562
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,320
The next morning, Finney decided
it had all been a dream.

563
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,400
Because Can you imagine if she
was given a medication that made

564
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,920
her loopy somehow?
Then it would be easy to think

565
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:26,520
it was a dream.
And well, that doesn't make any

566
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:27,920
sense.
I can't imagine that really

567
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,880
happened, right Missus?
Finney didn't worry about it

568
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,160
anymore.
But then 14 years later, when

569
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,120
Jane was arrested, Finney
realized it was no dream.

570
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,040
Oh my gosh.
I know I'm like, oh, I don't

571
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,240
think I wanted to know that if I
were she.

572
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,520
In the meantime, Toppen was
recommended for the prestigious

573
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:49,800
Massachusetts General Hospital,
and so she was nominated to go

574
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,640
there to work after.
That's where she got placed once

575
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,320
she graduated as a nurse.
And as we know, the nursing

576
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,480
training was a lot different
than it is now.

577
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,200
Basically, the way I've seen it
is based as long as you can wear

578
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,280
a nursing uniform and walk
around patting people on the

579
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:05,280
head.
And I was going to say and not

580
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,520
kill anyone, but apparently that
was not a requirement.

581
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:08,840
That's not even a requirement,
right?

582
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,880
And so it was fairly, fairly
simple training.

583
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:17,240
But she she did go to the
Massachusetts General Hospital

584
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,640
and she was there, she claimed
several more victims.

585
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:21,400
She was fired the following
year.

586
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,880
It didn't really say if she was
fired because she had killed

587
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,240
people or if she just somehow
had another issue.

588
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,040
I don't know what it was at that
point.

589
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,560
But she did briefly return to
Cambridge, which is where she

590
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,080
had taken her training.
She was soon dismissed for

591
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:37,560
administering opiates.
Reckless.

592
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:42,160
Then, because that wasn't enough
damage, she began her career as

593
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,800
a private nurse, and she
flourished despite the

594
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,440
complaints of petty theft.
So here's a nurse who's giving

595
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,880
meds Willy nilly, and now she's
stealing stuff.

596
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,600
But people liked her because she
was Jolly Jane, for heaven's

597
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:56,400
sakes.
Wow.

598
00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:02,600
Yeah, in eighteen, 8970 year old
Mary McClure became I'll on a

599
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,560
visit to Cambridge.
Her doctor sent Jane Taupin, who

600
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,840
he quoted to be one of her best
nurses, to care for her.

601
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:15,320
Well, Jane being Jane poisoned
Mary McClure and she died a

602
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,320
month later.
Jane killed a close friend with

603
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:23,360
strychnine so she could take her
job as a dining hall matron.

604
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,360
That's so bizarre.
Right.

605
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,360
And then I don't even know why,
why she would want that.

606
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:30,560
And maybe a dining hall matron
is different from what I

607
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:32,840
imagine, but I think of a lunch
lady.

608
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,360
I think it's fine.
Lunch ladies are awesome.

609
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,440
But she's a nurse already.
So I don't know why she wanted

610
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,560
to be a dining hall matron, but
she was wanting to be the dining

611
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:45,800
hall matron at Saint John's,
John's Theological School in

612
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,400
Cambridge.
She got the job, but it didn't

613
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:52,240
last, right?
The administration couldn't

614
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,400
ignore the complaints of
incompetence and missing money.

615
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:56,480
Oh, wow.
Right.

616
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,440
So a little picture into our
friend Jane.

617
00:31:59,960 --> 00:32:05,120
Outside of her job as a nurse or
as a matron in a dining hall,

618
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,840
she guzzled beer, told dirty
jokes, gossed up madly, and

619
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,520
enjoyed turning her friends
against each other.

620
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:13,880
Oh.
Wow.

621
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:16,160
So that was what she did on the
side for fun.

622
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,880
But to the doctors and their
patients, she seemed a highly

623
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,120
skilled, professional,
compassionate and cheerful.

624
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:26,760
And I think about this and the
so many different facets that

625
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,440
this woman had.
She's a petty theft.

626
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,960
She's a murderess.
She likes to pit her friends

627
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,760
against each other.
And in the time in the 1800's,

628
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,840
the fact that she guzzled beer,
told dirty jokes and gossiped

629
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,120
was pretty scandalous on all of
those levels.

630
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,000
And then to be considered a
professional, highly skilled,

631
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,960
compassionate, cheerful nurse, I
don't know how she would keep

632
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:51,800
track of really who she was in
the moment.

633
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,080
I barely have the skill to keep
track of who I am day-to-day,

634
00:32:56,080 --> 00:33:00,120
and I pretty much do the same.
I think back back to the

635
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:01,720
menopause.
Am I even human?

636
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:07,880
What is it?
So Jane was earning $25 a week,

637
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,600
and that was huge then because
most women, when they worked

638
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,200
outside the home earned an
average of $5 a week.

639
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,960
She reported later that she was
also getting sexual thrilled

640
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:20,320
with this criminal act by
climbing into bed with her

641
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:21,560
patients.
So she murdered them.

642
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,480
So she didn't just murder them,
she murdered them while she was

643
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:26,520
in bed with them.
While she was assaulting them.

644
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,800
Right, right.
And it didn't even say that she

645
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,400
ever assaulted them other than
that one lady kissing her.

646
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:32,920
Just being there was enough, I
guess.

647
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:35,880
You know, this isn't enough.
This is just a precursor, but

648
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:41,520
she began her poisoning spree in
earnest by 1895 by killing her

649
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,160
landlord, Israel Durham and his
wife.

650
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:48,520
No idea why.
And maybe maybe I mean, you

651
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,360
think I don't know.
This makes no sense to me.

652
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:56,040
And and what I think is that
they actually, these things were

653
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:57,960
determined later when she's been
caught.

654
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,880
It's not like people were
catching on that this was was

655
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,520
Jane at this time. 1899, she
killed her foster sister

656
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:06,120
Elizabeth with a dose of
strychnine.

657
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:10,080
Now remember she and Elizabeth
actually got along right, but

658
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,520
she killed her with strychnine.
Wow, got to watch her back on

659
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:17,120
that one.
In 1901, Toppin moved in with an

660
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,960
elderly Alden Davis and his
family to take care of him after

661
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,159
the death death of his wife
Maddie, who coincidentally

662
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,159
Toppin had murdered.
Oh my God, right.

663
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,840
So within weeks, she killed
Davis.

664
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:36,120
So the husband and his sister
Edna and two of his daughters,

665
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:40,719
Minnie and Genevieve, everyone
started to think that this was a

666
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:44,639
little bit sketchy.
Imagine that I know.

667
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,440
So the surviving members of the
Davis family ordered a

668
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,679
toxicology exam on many.
Now, I don't know why they

669
00:34:50,679 --> 00:34:53,440
didn't order it on Genevieve.
Maybe they just felt one was

670
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:54,719
enough.
I'm not sure.

671
00:34:55,040 --> 00:35:00,440
But at this time in what was it
1899 or excuse me, 19 O1 for

672
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,920
this one, this would still have
been a really rare testing and

673
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:06,880
exam that they would do.
Most of the time people died and

674
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:08,880
they're like, all right, that's
kind of how works.

675
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:13,040
Now, this toxicology exam showed
that many had been poisoned.

676
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,680
And so I don't know if they
extrapolated then that Genevieve

677
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,400
had as well.
But at that point, local

678
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,520
authorities assigned a police
detail on Top End to watch her.

679
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,800
And October 29th, 19 O1, she was
arrested for murder.

680
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,520
I as they watched her, it didn't
say in this that they watched

681
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:31,280
her and then they saw her do XY
and Z.

682
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:33,960
They just watched her.
So something must have triggered

683
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:37,720
their concerns because on
October 29th, 19 O1, she was

684
00:35:37,720 --> 00:35:41,040
arrested for murder.
As I mentioned, by 19 O2 she had

685
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:45,320
confessed to 31 murders.
Oh wow, I wonder how long it

686
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:48,000
took her to confess.
I wonder if she was like, you

687
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:49,440
got me, let me tell you all
about it.

688
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,960
Or if she was like, I just, I
don't know what you mean.

689
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,680
And then suddenly was like, you
know, eventually was like, OK,

690
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,600
you got me.
Right bat my eyes faint a few

691
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:02,160
times, things like that.
Well, it's she was arrested at

692
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,120
the end of October and then by
19 O2 she confessed.

693
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,480
So I don't know if that was
January 2nd or you know, I don't

694
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:10,480
know.
And so it's interesting because

695
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:15,160
who knows how that works.
But after she went to trial and

696
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:18,600
after the trial, one of you
might have heard this name,

697
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:24,080
William Randolph Hearst
Newspapers printed what was said

698
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,480
to have been Toppin's confession
to her lawyer.

699
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,600
She claimed that she had killed
more than 31 people and she

700
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,000
wanted the jury to find her
saying so she could eventually

701
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:38,120
have a chance of being released.
OK sister, you have killed 31

702
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:43,640
people even if you are saying
you're not going to get released

703
00:36:43,720 --> 00:36:47,160
usually.
And and I get that laws probably

704
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,240
were different then, but it
feels to me like that might even

705
00:36:50,240 --> 00:36:52,360
be against the pale at that
point.

706
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,800
Yeah, yeah.
And and Taupin insisted upon her

707
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,280
own sanity in court, She said.
This is my favorite.

708
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:03,240
She said she could not be insane
if she knew what she was doing

709
00:37:03,240 --> 00:37:06,520
and knew that it was wrong.
But nonetheless, she was

710
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:09,720
declared insane and committed.
Yeah, yeah, in.

711
00:37:09,720 --> 00:37:11,120
June.
I did not expect that.

712
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:17,240
I know right?
In June in 19 O2 she was found

713
00:37:17,240 --> 00:37:21,920
guilty by reason, or excuse me,
not guilty by reason of insanity

714
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,400
and committed for life to the
Taunton Insane Hospital.

715
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:29,360
She died there in 1938 at the
age of 81.

716
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:35,240
So she was there for 36 years.
So as a side note, I was just

717
00:37:35,240 --> 00:37:38,000
wondering which do you think
would have been worse, prison or

718
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,400
what they referred to then as an
insane hospital?

719
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,240
From what I've heard, the insane
hospital.

720
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:47,560
That's what I've heard too.
I happily have not been in one

721
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:51,720
in the 1800s, but.
I've been in one, but not in the

722
00:37:51,720 --> 00:37:52,920
1800s.
Not in the 18.

723
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:53,720
Hundreds.
You know this.

724
00:37:53,720 --> 00:37:56,640
I wasn't around in the 1800s.
What?

725
00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:01,160
I am shocked.
I've been in the Utah State

726
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:02,640
Prison.
Sorry, Utah State.

727
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:04,640
Happy now, Utah?
Wait a minute.

728
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:06,480
Well, I have, but I haven't been
an inmate.

729
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:11,160
I've been in, I was in the Utah
State mental Hospital in Provo.

730
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:15,640
No, I I also not as a patient.
I was going to say, there's

731
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:16,440
history.
I don't.

732
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:20,880
Remember, visited the Utah State
Mental Hospital before it was,

733
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,080
it was one of the last ones to
close in the country.

734
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:30,360
And so I, yeah, my, I want to
say somebody I knew worked

735
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:31,520
there.
I don't remember who to be

736
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:35,040
honest, but I visited with that
person and it was a rough place.

737
00:38:35,240 --> 00:38:38,120
At best, Yeah, indeed.
Well, I wanted to take it just a

738
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:42,280
minute to talk about some of the
victims that that Jane had had.

739
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:43,840
And this isn't an inclusive
list.

740
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,560
This is just some of them.
So Israel, we talked about who

741
00:38:47,720 --> 00:38:53,080
was a patient, died on May 26th,
1895 at 83.

742
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:57,960
Lovely Dunham, which was the
wife of Israel that I just

743
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:02,480
mentioned, was a patient, died
on September 19th, 1897.

744
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:06,520
So what I found interesting is
that, and she was 87, this is 2

745
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:10,200
years between when Israel died
and Lovely died.

746
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,600
Jane was playing the long game,
apparently.

747
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,640
Yeah, yeah.
And in some of these cases, they

748
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:19,280
think that she had financial
gain potential, like, oh, I know

749
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:21,680
sometimes some of these cases
I've read they've been put in

750
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:25,800
the will or something like that.
And or they start Skyping things

751
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,000
in the house, they start taking
this, they start taking that,

752
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:29,440
and pretty soon there's nothing
of value.

753
00:39:29,720 --> 00:39:32,000
And then they kill them because
there's nothing of value.

754
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:33,320
Nothing of value.
Right.

755
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:37,480
Another person was Elizabeth
Brigham, foster sister, and that

756
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:42,000
was her foster sister and she
died on August 29th, 1899 and

757
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,640
she was 70.
And remember she died of script

758
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:48,440
9 poisoning.
I'm sure that Jane was watching

759
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,880
the results and and then there
was Mary Mcnear who we talked

760
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:56,320
about before she died at the age
of 70 on December 29th in 1899.

761
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,720
Florence Caulkins, who is the
housekeeper for Elizabeth, his

762
00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:04,600
her step sister died on January
15th, 1900.

763
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:09,840
Just for memory's sake, this was
about six months after she had

764
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,520
killed Elizabeth.
So Elizabeth was killed and then

765
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,880
Florence was killed.
And Florence was only 45.

766
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:20,040
Oh wow, so then William Ingram
who was a patient died on

767
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:22,600
January 27th of 1900 and he was
70.

768
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,880
And Sarah Myra Connors was a
patient and friend.

769
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,720
Oh jeez, don't discriminate.
I kill my friends too.

770
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,160
And she died on February 11th,
1900.

771
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:34,600
She was 48.
Then there was Edna Bannister

772
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,760
who is a sister-in-law of
Elizabeth again step sister she

773
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,880
killed died on June 19th in
1901.

774
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,480
She was 77.
Maddie Davis was the wife of

775
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:47,480
Alden Dais we talked about
earlier, July 4th, 19 O one, age

776
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,720
62.
And then you've got Genevieve

777
00:40:50,720 --> 00:40:54,680
Gordon, who we also just
mentioned, and Maddie Davis.

778
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:58,200
And they both died on July 19,
O1.

779
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:04,040
They didn't mention their names,
but their father died on August

780
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:07,440
8th of 19, O1, and he was 64.
So I would think that these

781
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,000
girls were probably in their
late 30s or 80s.

782
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:12,960
Yeah.
And then the last one they

783
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,680
mentioned here, which is of
course not a list of 31, but

784
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,840
this is Mary Minnie Gibbs, a
daughter of Alden and Maddie,

785
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:22,480
and she died on August 13th, 19
O1 She was age 40.

786
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:27,680
So she killed the entire Davis
family between July 30th and

787
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,800
August 3rd?
July 30th of 19 O1 to August

788
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:32,800
13th of 19 O one.
Wow.

789
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:36,280
Yeah, wow.
So as we were talking about, we

790
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:37,560
wondered what on earth could
happen?

791
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,560
Why do people get to this place?
An article in the Hosier State

792
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,560
Chronicles, published shortly
after after Jane's arrest,

793
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:47,240
reported that Toppen would
fondle their victims as they

794
00:41:47,240 --> 00:41:50,000
died and attempt to see the
inner workings of their souls

795
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:54,920
through their eyes.
Yeah, that's Oh my gosh, like,

796
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:56,960
imagine that's the last thing
you see before you die.

797
00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:00,480
Her staring at your eyes, trying
to see the inner workings of

798
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,960
your soul in a malicious way.
That seems seems awkward at

799
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:06,480
best.
Best.

800
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,320
And under questioning she stated
she derived A thrill from

801
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,400
patients being near death and
coming back to life and then

802
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:14,960
dying again.
Oh wow.

803
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,280
She administered a drug mixer to
the patients she chose as her

804
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:21,120
victims, lay with them and held
them close as they died.

805
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:23,680
Oh, isn't that sweet?
Oh, isn't that sweet?

806
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:28,040
Right as we talked about Toffins
often consider an Angel of mercy

807
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:30,880
and the angels of mercy or now
as we talked about them are

808
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,960
medical murderers and and
hospital killer sort of things

809
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,440
are the type of serial killer
takes on a caretaker role and

810
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:39,280
attacks the vulnerable and
dependent.

811
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:41,680
Now she was a nurse when she did
this.

812
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,840
Some people are not but they are
in caretaker roles.

813
00:42:45,240 --> 00:42:48,600
But she also murdered for more
personal reasons, such as in the

814
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:51,720
case of the Davis family, she
may have been motivated by

815
00:42:51,720 --> 00:42:53,560
jealousy.
In the case of her foster

816
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:57,640
sister, she later described her
motivation as a paralysis of

817
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:03,200
thought and reason and in in
strong urge to poison right, So

818
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:05,560
topping use poison for more than
just one murder.

819
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:09,400
Because as we know, she used the
medications in most of them, but

820
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,120
in more than one she used
poison.

821
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:14,520
She had poisoned the housekeeper
just enough so she appeared

822
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:16,480
drunk.
And this is what is another

823
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:19,800
thing that seems odd to me.
She did poison her enough to

824
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,920
keep her looking like she was
drunk in order to steal her job,

825
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:24,680
right?
And she still wanted to steal

826
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:26,960
her job because she also wanted
to kill the family.

827
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:31,520
And she even poisoned herself to
evoke the sympathy of men who

828
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:34,360
courted her.
Again, as we know, jolly Jane

829
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,880
Taupin killed at least 31 people
between 1880 and 19 O one.

830
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:39,920
But the doctors who hired her
thought she was one of their

831
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:43,040
best nervous nurses.
And today, psychiatrists say she

832
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:45,640
was one of the most unusual
serial killers in history.

833
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:49,120
Like many serial killers, she
had an unstable childhood.

834
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,640
Unlike most female serial
killers, she did it for the

835
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:54,560
sexual thrill.
That's what is.

836
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:58,520
So I don't know if it's scary
or, or what the whole thing is

837
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:02,240
scary, but especially that in
cases of women, they almost

838
00:44:02,240 --> 00:44:05,040
never do that sort of thing.
But Jane couldn't resist the

839
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:08,560
excitement, admitted she had
aspired, as I mentioned before,

840
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:11,720
to kill more people than any
other man or woman, whoever

841
00:44:11,720 --> 00:44:14,440
lived and.
Aspiration and goals, baby.

842
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:17,360
Right.
And in that time frame, I don't

843
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:20,160
know how she would know anyway.
It's not like all of the news

844
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:21,880
was like it is now where we see
it everywhere.

845
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:24,920
So I got just had to keep
killing until whatever happens

846
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:26,440
in figuring 100 is probably
enough.

847
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:27,880
I was.
Going to say until her heart

848
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,000
tells her that she's done.
She measures with her heart.

849
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:32,240
Measures with her heart.
Yeah, that sounds right.

850
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,120
Jane also displayed the earmarks
of a sociopath.

851
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:40,520
Not surprisingly, she told
outrageous lies and things that

852
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:42,840
were along the lines of her
father sailed around the world.

853
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:44,840
And remember, he was a very
abusive man.

854
00:44:45,240 --> 00:44:47,440
And she also had lost her mother
early on.

855
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:50,160
One of the other lies she said
was her sister, married English

856
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:51,920
nobleman.
Her brother was decorated at

857
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:55,040
Gettysburg by Abraham Lincoln.
She never even had a brother.

858
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:57,520
He was.
He was decorated at by Abraham

859
00:44:57,520 --> 00:44:59,240
Lincoln.
So those are the kinds.

860
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:00,600
Yeah.
Those are the kinds of things

861
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,080
that she lied about.
You talk about the ways that

862
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:08,000
people get twisted, air quotes
if you will, and this is one of

863
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,760
those situations where nature
versus nurture.

864
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:14,760
Was she Born This Way somehow?
Some people say sociopaths and

865
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:18,640
psychopaths are born that way
and then some of them can

866
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:22,080
control themselves, but some of
them cannot based on what

867
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:24,720
happened in their lifetime.
I don't know the answer.

868
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:28,120
I don't think even truly does,
but I think people have a lot of

869
00:45:28,720 --> 00:45:29,880
theories about it.
Do you have any?

870
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:31,840
Thoughts related.
I know it's, I know it's more

871
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:34,720
nuanced than this and I know
this isn't even necessarily

872
00:45:34,720 --> 00:45:38,560
accurate, but I do know that
there's a a theory that's out

873
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:42,360
there in the lay people's world
that you and I don't remember

874
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,560
even which direction it goes,
but you bear one and you make

875
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:47,400
another.
So like you bear a psychopath

876
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:50,520
and make a sociopath or you bear
a meaning give birth to.

877
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:53,640
So what is made one is 1 is born
that way.

878
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:57,080
So I don't like I said, I I know
that it again, it's way more

879
00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:59,920
nuanced than that.
And that's not an entirely

880
00:45:59,920 --> 00:46:04,840
accurate depiction, but yeah, it
just, it, it does make me

881
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:08,480
wonder, Like, it makes me wonder
if you go back to the nature

882
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:13,920
versus nurture argument, right?
The the British television show

883
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,040
Sherlock.
I think that's what it's called.

884
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:18,040
I think so.
And it might even be in the

885
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:19,720
book.
I haven't read Sherlock Holmes

886
00:46:19,720 --> 00:46:23,600
in decades, but you know,
Sherlock Holmes is just, he self

887
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:27,280
describes as a sociopath, right?
He says he's a sociopath.

888
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:31,040
So being an example of somebody
who can be a sociopath and not

889
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:35,360
use that as an excuse to murder
or not have the desire to murder

890
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:38,640
or whatever, right.
And so then that brings back the

891
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:42,280
nature versus nurture.
Can we another fictional example

892
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:45,840
is like Dexter, right?
Can we take a serial killer and

893
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:50,480
give them parameters, give them
rules, give them boundaries, and

894
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:53,480
have them do things other than
serial killing?

895
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,680
Now obviously Dexter is a serial
killer who kills serial killers,

896
00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:57,560
but.
Right.

897
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:00,880
That being a side, let's say it
was instead of killing serial

898
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:04,120
killers, let's say it was making
them smell like skunk for a day

899
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:06,280
or whatever so they can be found
by the cops.

900
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:07,600
I don't know, I'm just pit
bawling.

901
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:11,360
But like cat is there?
Is there a level of nurture that

902
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:16,600
we can present and implement
that could potentially prevent

903
00:47:16,720 --> 00:47:19,720
psychopaths or sociopaths from
killing?

904
00:47:19,720 --> 00:47:21,840
I don't.
Know Yeah, well, there was a

905
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:28,640
book I read recently called I Am
a Sociopath and it was by.

906
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:33,000
I'm not quite sure how to say
her name, but Patrick Gegen

907
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:37,600
she's a PhD and it's about her
actual life as a sociopath and

908
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:41,080
she talks about how she had to
make almost a daily, sometimes

909
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:45,480
hourly decision on not being a
psychopath because her urges

910
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,400
were there.
But she knew she air quote

911
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:50,920
shouldn't do that.
Now she didn't.

912
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,120
She in her book and it's worth
reading.

913
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:57,480
I really I found it just amazing
because my brain doesn't work

914
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:00,080
this way.
But she talks about how moment

915
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:02,160
to moment she even had to make
these decisions.

916
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,960
And what she ended up doing is
she did things that were of kind

917
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:08,680
of high risk, but it gave her
the thrill she needed.

918
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:12,040
So she'd break into home, she'd
try people's clothes on.

919
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:16,080
She'd do things like that.
She'd do smaller things that

920
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:20,920
sort of had no victims, if you
will, to get that high that she

921
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:24,000
was looking for without doing
something really horrendous that

922
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:28,800
she knew was not OK.
But it's not like she felt guilt

923
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:33,880
about it or it's not like she
just would feel bad if she did

924
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:35,680
it.
She just knew that it wasn't OK

925
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:40,040
and she wanted to to do enough
to not be kicked out of society,

926
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:42,920
if you will.
And it's just amazing that talks

927
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:46,320
about her entire entire life.
Some parts are easier to read

928
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:48,880
than others, but it was just, it
was just amazing.

929
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:50,840
Another mind boggling
experience.

930
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:54,640
It gave me a different look on
how that was.

931
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:58,280
So I believe that when you said
you can bear a sociopath, I

932
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:00,960
think that part was correct.
But a psychopath is built

933
00:49:01,240 --> 00:49:04,600
because I think from the things
I've read, sociopaths are the

934
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:07,920
are kind of born that way and
then they can morph into

935
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:10,640
something more significant.
But I think almost all

936
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:13,760
psychopaths are sociopaths.
That's what I've heard.

937
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:16,600
Again, could be incorrect
because I am not a psychology

938
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:21,320
nurse today, right?
But today we've taken our first

939
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:26,440
steps into the murder topic on
our M4 podcast.

940
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:30,240
Our journey that goes through
medicine, mystery, mayhem, and

941
00:49:30,240 --> 00:49:34,480
as we say, sometimes murder
shows that healthcare world can

942
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:38,560
be as enigmatic and suspenseful
as any crime novel.

943
00:49:38,720 --> 00:49:42,800
And it's it's just it doesn't
take long to look through a few

944
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:45,680
things to find these these
mysteries and murders and

945
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:49,440
suspense that go on.
We want to stay tuned for more

946
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:52,640
riveting stories.
I think the most mysterious

947
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:55,960
cases are usually just beneath
the surface.

948
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:58,320
You're here, you're here.
Well, thank you all for

949
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:00,400
listening do.
You have an idea for an episode

950
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:02,840
of this podcast?
Just want to say hi?

951
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:06,240
You can get in touch with us at
our M4 pod.

952
00:50:06,720 --> 00:50:15,920
That's OURM the #4pod@gmail.com.
We read every e-mail, and

953
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:19,280
sometimes we even respond just
like real professionals.

954
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:23,840
Because we are.
Old friends with new twists and

955
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:25,400
lots of body bags.