Ep. 25: Down in a Hole

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Welcome to M4 Medicine, mystery,
mayhem, and sometimes murder.

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I'm Andrea Marciano and RN with
35 years of experience across

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various fields.
From direct patient care in

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hospitals to home health,
geriatrics, and injury medicine,

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I face life, death, and
everything in between.

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And I'm Crystal Miller and RN
with 13 1/2 years of experience.

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My work spans home health,
Hospice, emergency care,

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geriatrics, and occupational
health.

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From the chaos of trauma based
quiet moments with patients,

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I've seen stories that defy
explanations.

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We've been friends for over 25
years and as nurses we've shared

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countless stories that have left
us and our families speechless.

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Now we're bringing those stories
and many more to you in

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medicine, mystery, mayhem, and
sometimes murder.

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Each week, we'll uncover cases
that challenge the boundaries of

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medicine, sharing the human
stories behind the science.

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From puzzling medical mysteries
to shocking real life crimes,

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we'll bring you stories that'll
leave you questioning everything

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you thought you knew while.
We're both experiencing these

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nurses.
We want to make it clear we're

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not here to give medical advice.
This podcast is about

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storytelling, education and
exploration, not diagnosing or

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treating medical conditions.
This is medicine, mystery,

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mayhem and sometimes murder.
Let's dive in.

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Hey Crystal, how are you doing?
I'm doing pretty well.

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How are you?
I'm very well, thank you.

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I'm enjoying the beginning of
spring, starting to plant my

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garden, and watching my garden
grow.

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Speaking of spring, I've got
baby bunnies in a nest in my

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front yard, in my front garden
actually, and I'm so worried

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about them because it's been
raining really bad.

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There's been flooding all around
me.

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We didn't have any flooding but
we definitely had some heavy

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rain and some standing water for
a while.

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And I'm so nervous that they
didn't survive it.

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And I have no way to check
because if I disturb their nest

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then their mother will probably
abandoned them and I'm so

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worried about it.
That's the worst we had.

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I looked in the back of our
cabin, we have a gazebo and I

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saw a cute little nest that a
bird had built in the top.

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It was clearly empty.
It they all flew off already.

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And we've got some little baby
geese.

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I mean, excuse me, duck, ducks
in our pond.

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I said geese for some reason.
But ducks.

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We have some little chicks and
some of them have succumbed to

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the chicken in the sky, but we
have some that are surviving.

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Yeah, it's funny how how spring
really is like baby animal time.

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This is the first time I've ever
had any baby animals in my yard.

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We also found, well, Lula, my
cat found a toad in my house the

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other day, so that was
interesting.

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Yeah, just a little, but he's a
chocolate chip cookie standard,

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like chocolate chip cookie.
That's fine.

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Did she bring the frog in?
That no, she doesn't go outside.

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So she just, she just cornered
it for us.

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She hadn't heard it though.
She just cornered it for us and

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she was able to grab it and
release it.

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That's hilarious.
She probably had no idea what

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that thing was.
We have a bunch of a bunch of

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toads in the back.
I hear them singing all the time

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and sometimes they stay, but
usually they migrate.

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There's across the street from
us.

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There's a retention pond that
doesn't get any action.

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Ours gets very little, but it's
still sometimes they just, they

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come out of the Creek and they
go across the street to the

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pond.
I don't know why they don't just

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stay in our pond because it's a
lot friendlier, but they don't.

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So.
Anyway, well, good.

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So what do you have for us
today?

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Today I wanted to tell the
story.

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This is probably a pretty
familiar story to a lot of our

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listeners.
It may not be as familiar as to

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younger generations necessarily,
but I want to talk today about

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Baby Jessica or the baby in the
well.

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Let me tell you what my sources
are really quickly.

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I'm scrolling down to it.
My apologies.

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I used the an article from Texas
Monthly called Jessica Mcclure's

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Well of Hope, a story from the
Smithsonian Magazine called The

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Story of Baby Jessica. 30 years
later a story from People

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magazine The Rescue of Baby
Jessica New York Times after

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baby Jessica a life spent
struggling the Today show an

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interview of Jessica McClure
Jessica McClure before the

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headlines, before the cameras,
before she became America's baby

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Jessica she was just.
Jessica McClure, a curious 18

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month old girl from Midland, TX,
a little girl who loves singing

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nursery rhymes, exploring
backyards, and making her

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teenage parents laugh.
I want to make sure that our

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listeners understand that we
want to give, we want to make

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sure that we keep our, I think
we've said this before, but we

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want to make sure that we keep
our stories humanized when, when

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there are human beings involved
and not, you know, relegate them

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to just statistics.
And so I do have a little bit of

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some back story about Jessica's
parents and kind of her first 18

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months of life.
Her mother, Sissy, was just 17

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when Jessica was born.
Her father, Chip, was barely 18.

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They were two young kids trying
to build a life in the middle of

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West, TX oil country.
They lived modestly, surrounded

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by extended family, love and the
kind of quiet hope that says

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maybe tomorrow will be better.
Jessica's world in October 1987

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was simple.
Her mom's daycare, her aunt's

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backyard, the wide Texas sky.
But then, in one moment, in a

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single blink of distracted time,
everything changed.

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So are you familiar with this
story?

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Oh my gosh, I remember living
through it and watching the news

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and just being so worried.
That was two years before my

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first child was born, and I
didn't know yet how quickly

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someone that age can move.
Just the moment of not paying

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attention.
And I remember how some of this

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played out.
It was very tense for everyone.

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So I was in college by then, and
it was just, yeah, I just

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remember watching it all the
time on the TV.

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It was one of the first things I
remember watching live.

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That's interesting you say that
because actually it was in the

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infancy of CNN, which was the
basically the original 24 hour

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news cycle television station.
And so CNN was was actually

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broadcasting it live 24/7.
Yeah, I remember that.

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Were you old enough to remember?
I mean, given the 10 years I was

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11.
Yeah, but do you remember it?

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Yeah, absolutely.
And I remember that.

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I just remember how dirty she
looked when she came out.

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And I was not prepared.
I was not prepared for that,

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which is so funny.
But I was 11, right?

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I was expecting just a baby to
come out.

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Yeah, not a.
Dirty, broken baby.

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Yeah, yeah.
It was very intense.

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It really was.
What were you just reading from?

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What was that source?
Do you remember?

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Oh, that's my own writing from
all the sources.

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Oh, OK, great.
I kind of write.

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I kind of writing to read man, I
got to use it.

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Yeah, you do.
Carry on, OK?

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On the morning of October 14th,
1987, Jessica was playing

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outside at her aunt's house,
where her mother, Sissy helped

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run a home daycare.
The backyard was dusty,

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cluttered with all toys, and
somewhere near a fence line, a

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forgotten relic and abandoned
well casing.

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Only 8 inches wide, just big
enough for a toddler's foot to

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slip inside.
So I wanted to give you a visual

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of what 8 inches wide is.
It's about the size of a dinner

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plate.
OK, The well had once been

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capped by a large rock or cement
piece, and a few days earlier

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someone had moved it, planning
to fix it later.

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And like so many dangers in
ordinary life, it was forgotten.

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It was one of those I'll get to
it situations with not a thought

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to any possibility of danger to
anyone.

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I mean, obviously the thought
had been there at some point

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because the rock was put there
or the cement block was put

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there.
But whoever moved it for

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whatever reason, they just, it
did not occur to them that the

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importance of putting it back.
And I want to emphasize also

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that this rock was absolutely
not removed out of malice or

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forethought of anything.
It was just as just a sad

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mistake.
When I if I remember correctly

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in the original story, they were
looking to reactivate this well.

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They were looking to see if it
was still a good well on the

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property.
I didn't hear.

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It's not, it was not actually a
water well.

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It was an old, an old oil
detecting well.

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That's not the right word, but I
believe I have it in my story.

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But yeah, so it was.
It's called a, it's called a

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well casing.
And they use it to see, to see

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if there's oil and when.
OK, let's, let's talk about her

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falling.
So Jessica was wondering, just a

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few steps from the other kids at
this home daycare run by her

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mother and her aunt stepped onto
the spot and vanished.

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Her fall was silent.
The first anyone knew was when

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the other children screamed.
Sissy ran outside, scanning the

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yard and saw nothing until she
heard it.

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Jessica's tiny cries coming from
beneath the earth now did you?

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Do you remember hearing Jessica
in the Well?

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Yeah.
Yeah, that's one of the things

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that's a, that's a core memory
for me is.

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And we're going to get to the
most endearing part in just a

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minute, but.
Yeah, I, I think I remember what

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it was probably.
Do so.

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The 911 call came fast.
So fast the dispatcher first

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thought it was a prank.
My baby fell down a well.

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It sounded impossible, but it
was real.

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Jessica McClure was 22 feet
underground, wedged inside a

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crumbling shaft that was never
meant to hold life.

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And what's interesting about
this also is that Welsh that

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well casing was not actually 22
feet deep.

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The ground was so unsettled and
not compacted that she actually

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broke through the bottom of the
well and fell an additional

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number of feet.
I don't know how many exactly,

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but she was far below the bottom
of the of the well.

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So first first responders
arrived within minutes, but they

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quickly realized this was not a
normal rescue.

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The well was too narrow for any
adult to descend.

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Like I said, the surrounding
soil bit that's Hard Rock mixed

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with sandy loam was dangerously
unstable.

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Yeah.
Because I remember them being

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really worried that if they
tried to send anything down to

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her, not only was she small
enough not to really be able to

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grab something, but they worried
they were going to collapse it

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more.
Yep.

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So one wrong move.
I think might have just said

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this could trigger a collapse.
They couldn't pull her straight

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out, so they would have to.
Well, actually, I'm going to

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back up a little bit because
they did try putting down a

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rope.
Yeah.

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She was too little to know what
to do with it.

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So they decided that they were
going to dig a parallel, well

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essentially next to the the one
that she was in and tunnel

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sideways to reach her.
They knew it would be dangerous.

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They knew it would be slow, and
they also knew that Jessica

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didn't have forever.
You know, it's a simple plan in

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theory.
Dig a parallel shaft, then a

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horizontal tunnel.
Excuse me, to her location.

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But nothing about the reality
was simple.

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Equipment failed, compressors
broke, drills jammed against

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unexpected rock layers, and time
was running out.

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Here comes the sweet part.
Jessica's breathing, heard

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faintly through microphones
lowered into the shaft, changed

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over the first hours.
She whimpered.

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She called for her mother.
And then she started singing

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faint broken songs, Winnie the
Pooh melodies drifting up from

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the dark.
And that, that is a core memory

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for me.
Just that sound of hope.

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Frankly, just phenomenally
unbelievable and endearing.

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Can you imagine having been
there and hear this teeny tiny

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little voice and just know it
was there, but then also know

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that, as you said, the time was
limited?

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They had sent an air tube down.
They were pumping oxygen in,

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yes.
They were worried about her

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being so compressed that she
could not fully breathe.

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Yep, they pumped oxygen in the
whole time.

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00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:05,760
CNN, like I said, aired near
continuous live footage.

228
00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,560
Every major network network
picked up the feed Across

229
00:12:09,560 --> 00:12:11,760
America, televisions flickered
with updates, right?

230
00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,440
I mean, those of us who didn't
have CNN because their moms and

231
00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:19,120
dads wouldn't buy them cable
were able to watch it on the

232
00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:21,320
local news.
And maybe not in real time, you

233
00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:25,120
know, as much as CNN, but just
in practice, practically or

234
00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:29,320
relatively real time.
Yeah, I remember we had it.

235
00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,840
I was, if it was 87, I was
already at college.

236
00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,040
And so we had, I'm sure we had
all the cable stuff because, you

237
00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:40,560
know, we wanted it.
And I, I just remember it being

238
00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:44,120
available and I was watching it
and it was summertime, I think,

239
00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:45,400
wasn't it?
What was the month?

240
00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:47,960
October, OK.
Because I couldn't remember if I

241
00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:52,000
was in college classes or not.
And I work too, but I remember

242
00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:53,960
watching it as much as I
possibly could.

243
00:12:54,520 --> 00:13:03,160
Yeah, You know, churches prayed,
schools held vigils, people held

244
00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,800
memorials, vigils.
You know, I said that with

245
00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:08,880
candles and things like that
staying up all night.

246
00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:12,280
And then behind the scenes,
rescuers started discussing

247
00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:15,320
darker options if tunnelling
failed.

248
00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:19,160
An explosive experts explosives
expert was standing by to blast

249
00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:22,080
an opening, the last desperate
measure that could easily have

250
00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:25,120
killed Jessica in the process.
It was a choice no one wanted to

251
00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:31,200
make. 20 hours passed, then 30,
then 50.

252
00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,120
Now consider this.
We're at 48 hours is 2 days.

253
00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:39,080
So 50 hours were two whole days
into this baby in a well.

254
00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:42,760
The rescuers battled exhaustion,
dehydration and despair.

255
00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,760
Not only were they battling
their own exhaustion and

256
00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:50,560
dehydration, they were battling
Jessica's dehydration and

257
00:13:50,560 --> 00:13:53,280
exhaustion.
You know, men wept openly when

258
00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:55,440
setbacks delayed tunneling the
tunneling process.

259
00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,080
Jessica's faint cries rose and
fell like the beat of a fading

260
00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:03,560
drum.
Finally, after 58 agonizing

261
00:14:03,560 --> 00:14:06,440
hours, a team of miners,
engineers and paramedics

262
00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:07,800
finished tunnelling close
enough.

263
00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:12,440
The final push fell to a young
paramedic paramedic named Robert

264
00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,160
O'Donnell.
He crawled through the narrow

265
00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,640
shaft wedged against sharp
rocks, moving inch by inch

266
00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:22,800
towards Jessica's trapped form.
When he finally reached her, she

267
00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:26,520
was barely conscious.
Her tiny body was twisted, her

268
00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:29,680
right foot pinned painfully
against her head, her skin

269
00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:33,920
bruised and scraped.
Robert whispered to her, gently

270
00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:38,640
shifted her, lubricated her with
petroleum Jelly and pulled.

271
00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:43,240
And Jessica McClure, against all
odds, emerged into the light.

272
00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:52,280
Bruised, scared, scarred,
crying, weakly but alive.

273
00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:56,200
And everyone else was crying
very strongly and going

274
00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:58,960
hysterical.
Yes, yes, absolutely.

275
00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:00,880
I was crying.
I mean, it was such an

276
00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:02,920
emotional, you know, just so
emotional.

277
00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,520
Like I said, she came out just
looking so pathetic.

278
00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:10,960
And of course I mean pathetic in
the sense of just helpless and

279
00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:13,640
broken, you know, I already said
it.

280
00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,400
And so it was just, it was
really, it was really

281
00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:22,360
heartbreaking to watch, but then
also so uplifting and relieving.

282
00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:24,760
It is real, a real dichotomy,
you know.

283
00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,240
Yeah.
So Jessica was rushed to the

284
00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:29,320
hospital.
She suffered severe bruising,

285
00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,520
dehydration and circulatory
damage to her foot.

286
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:36,640
Surgeons worked to save her leg,
ultimately amputating only a

287
00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:38,800
single toe.
Jessica would carry a scar on

288
00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,800
her forehead for the rest of her
life, a tiny dent left by the

289
00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:45,320
pressure of the well walls.
But the bigger scars would be

290
00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:47,800
less visible.
Jessica's parents, Sissy and

291
00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,280
Chip, were hailed as heroes.
But the reality behind closed

292
00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:55,240
doors was different.
The media circus was relentless.

293
00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:57,680
Offers flooded in.
Interviews, endorsements, movie

294
00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,080
rights.
And with them came judgement.

295
00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:04,840
Locally in Midland again, a
place that says we take care of

296
00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:07,920
it ourselves, not everyone was
supportive.

297
00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,480
Whispers blamed Sissy for
negligence, blamed Chip for poor

298
00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,360
judgement.
Small town rumors, cruel and

299
00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,840
inevitable, the young couples
marriage buckled under the

300
00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,120
weight of fame and trauma.
Within a few years, they quietly

301
00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,360
divorced.
Jessica grew up out of the

302
00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:26,400
spotlight, shielded as much as
possible.

303
00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,760
She said she doesn't Remember
Remember the rescue at all.

304
00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,080
The only scar that reminds her
it happened.

305
00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,760
Sorry, it's only the scar that
reminds her it happened.

306
00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:39,280
When she turned 25, she gained
access to the trust fund

307
00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:43,000
established in her name, once
valued near $1,000,000.

308
00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:48,560
Market downturns, including the
2008 recession and crash, left

309
00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:50,360
it a fraction of its former
size.

310
00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,320
Jessica used it to buy a modest
home.

311
00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:55,440
Nothing flashy, nothing
Hollywood.

312
00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:57,600
She married, had children of her
own.

313
00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,440
Live quietly Today.
Jessica McClure Morales, which

314
00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,760
is her married name, is a
private woman grateful to live a

315
00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:06,359
life.
Most people don't recognize her

316
00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,359
end.
When asked if she believes that

317
00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:13,359
she's a hero, she says I was
just a baby.

318
00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:16,440
Yeah, which I think was.
Really hilarious it's.

319
00:17:17,079 --> 00:17:19,760
Like duh.
Nope, Nope.

320
00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:21,319
I fell in a well, I'm.
Not.

321
00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:25,440
Yeah.
Unfortunately, not everyone

322
00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:27,839
touched by Jessica's story
survived.

323
00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:31,360
Robert O'Donnell, the paramedic
who pulled her from the well,

324
00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:35,000
suffered years of PTSD and
depression after the rescue.

325
00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,080
Unable to escape the flashbacks,
unable to rebuild a peaceful

326
00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:43,840
life, Robert died at his own
hand in 1995, just eight years

327
00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,000
after the rescue.
His hero, his heroism, saved

328
00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:51,120
Jessica, but the memory of those
58 hours cost him everything.

329
00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:53,360
Wow.
Well.

330
00:17:54,360 --> 00:18:00,400
And that's actually amazing to
me because he saved her life.

331
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,400
And he actually, if I remember
correctly, he was selected

332
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:07,960
strictly based on his size
because he was the smallest.

333
00:18:08,120 --> 00:18:11,080
They wanted to get someone there
as fast as possible.

334
00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:13,320
And so the smallest person is
the one who went.

335
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:17,320
Did it say in there what it,
what was the PTSD issue?

336
00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:21,640
I mean, I I wonder what it was
that affected him that way.

337
00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:26,920
It didn't really go into it, it
just said that he struggled for

338
00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,440
years after the rescue.
He found it nearly impossible to

339
00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:32,840
return to normal life, haunted
by what could have gone wrong.

340
00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:37,120
Oh sure, in 1995, the world lost
him to suicide.

341
00:18:37,120 --> 00:18:40,440
A reminder that sometimes the
trauma of saving a life can cost

342
00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:42,040
your own.
Yeah.

343
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,440
Wow.
Well, in trauma, people, I

344
00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,280
think, look at trauma as being
only something that was a

345
00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:51,640
negative thing, but it has to be
a negative thing to be a trauma.

346
00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:55,240
It can be a very significant
positive thing as well, but in a

347
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,680
traumatic sort of way.
Like that, that, yes, she

348
00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,400
survived.
And as they talked about that,

349
00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:03,960
the marriage of her parents did
not happen.

350
00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,960
And I look at that too and think
they were 17 to 18 years old,

351
00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:11,600
for heaven sakes.
Yeah, Like, I mean, I Remember

352
00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:15,200
Remember how I was when I was 17
or 18 and to be going through

353
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:19,120
all of that and I remember as a
parent making decisions that

354
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,440
certainly could have ended up
equally terrible.

355
00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:24,680
I didn't have a kid in a well,
but I mean.

356
00:19:25,360 --> 00:19:29,640
I fell into an ice fishing hole.
My my best little girlfriend.

357
00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,160
We were four years old.
She fell into I don't know if

358
00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,400
you remember, and maybe you
never saw it because it was old,

359
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,320
old, old, but Payson downtown
used to have a canal that run

360
00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:40,680
ran in front of the stores on
Main Street.

361
00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,400
It was a walking street, and it
had actual canals that ran right

362
00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:46,720
in front of the stores.
And there'd be bridges you'd get

363
00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:48,320
between, you know, over the
canal.

364
00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:53,000
And one time my friend Hannah
fell into that canal, and my dad

365
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,760
had to race forward like 3 or 4
bridges so that he could, you

366
00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,120
know, reach down and catch her
as she came out from under that

367
00:19:59,120 --> 00:20:01,560
bridge.
It was horrifyingly scary.

368
00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,920
I'm sure.
And she survived, and nothing.

369
00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,280
She survived.
And does that mean that my dad

370
00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,360
or her dad or whoever was there,
I, at 4 years old, had been

371
00:20:10,360 --> 00:20:11,280
negligent?
No.

372
00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:15,880
It meant that a child was
curious and did a curious thing

373
00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:19,760
and it ended up in an accident
that could have been horrible.

374
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,800
Yeah.
You hear, you hear all the time,

375
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:24,600
all the time.
These stories of.

376
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:27,760
I just turned my head, right.
I just looked away for a second.

377
00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:29,720
I went.
To the bathroom, for heaven's

378
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:31,320
sakes.
I went to the bathroom, right?

379
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:35,080
It, it actually reminds me.
It's a similar sort of thing.

380
00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:37,400
Babies and children who die in
hot cars, right?

381
00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,920
One change in routine.
Mom always takes the kids to

382
00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,520
daycare on Monday, But this
Monday, mom has something.

383
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:47,200
Dad's taking them to daycare.
One simple change.

384
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:49,600
Dad says, I know I'm taking them
to daycare.

385
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,120
Dad gets in the car.
Dad decides to stop at

386
00:20:52,120 --> 00:20:54,960
Starbucks.
Dad gets into his routine, goes

387
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:59,040
to work, it comes out hours
later to a dead kid, right.

388
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,240
Like and there yes, there are
cases where it's been

389
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,800
intentional, it's been homicide,
but the majority of them are not

390
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:09,200
the majority are just accidents.
And it it scares the hell out of

391
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,400
me.
I mean, less so now that my kids

392
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:15,040
aren't little and I they have
other concerns, obviously, but

393
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:19,240
not of them slipping and falling
into a pond necessarily.

394
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:21,960
Or not a pond, but.
Not being able to get out.

395
00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:23,640
Yeah, Canal.
Yeah, exactly.

396
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:28,120
I feel really, really terrible
for her parents, and small towns

397
00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:31,040
can be brutal.
I wish that her town, their

398
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,000
town, had been kinder to them
and more supportive instead of

399
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:38,680
gossipy and unkind and
judgmental and that sort of

400
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:42,400
thing, you know?
Yeah, it's such an easy thing to

401
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,920
fall into, I think talking about
something like that.

402
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:49,800
And then if we look at how she
survived for all that time, I

403
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,880
remember that they had talked
about trying to get her some

404
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,240
food or water.
But again, based on her age,

405
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:58,680
they didn't think that they were
worried about her drowning

406
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:01,040
really because of not being able
to drink it properly.

407
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,600
And they couldn't start IB, of
course, or anything like that.

408
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:08,520
And so as I remember, they tried
a couple things to get her some

409
00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,880
water but she she couldn't grab
it because we're arms were or

410
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:13,840
something.
I can't remember exactly but if

411
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,160
you recall.
OK, let me think about it,

412
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:17,400
'cause I don't want to tell it,
right?

413
00:22:18,360 --> 00:22:21,640
Was it her arm or her leg that
was basically bent all the way

414
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:23,400
up?
Her leg because her foot was

415
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,240
basically up by her.
Ear Yep, that's right.

416
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:25,600
That's.
Right.

417
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:27,880
Yeah.
And so I imagine if her foot was

418
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,760
up like that, even if she had
her arms up, I don't think she

419
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:33,280
could have moved anything to her
mouth.

420
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:35,240
I imagine she was very wedged,
yeah.

421
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,920
Yeah, she was because I remember
seeing pictures and also at the

422
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:42,760
time them showing the diameter
of a tube and putting a doll in

423
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:46,280
there and just showing how tight
it was and how it would be

424
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,680
impossible.
The fact that there for other

425
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,640
kids that saw it and responded
was huge too.

426
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,480
Even though her outcome she
stayed in there for so long

427
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,480
didn't change.
If they didn't know where she

428
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,200
was and she was searching it
would it could have delayed

429
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,280
things for hours and hours even
further and gone beyond her.

430
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,040
Because it's fairly well known
that a person can survive for 72

431
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,280
hours without water.
But when you're talking about an

432
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,680
18 month old person who has no
real reserves, that's a

433
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:17,080
different thing than an adult
person who has some reserves,

434
00:23:17,360 --> 00:23:19,080
right?
One of the things things also

435
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:25,480
that I want to talk about is how
resilient babies are and

436
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:30,960
children are and the fact that
she was able to self soothe and

437
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:35,760
kind of protect herself from
whatever panic or that sort of

438
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:41,360
thing might might come up along
by singing songs from Winnie the

439
00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:45,560
Pooh and babbling to herself and
you know, all of that sort of

440
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:47,200
thing.
And I just, you know, if that

441
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,640
had been, if that had been an
adult, I think that the odds are

442
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:53,800
very high that they would panic
and they would not self soothe,

443
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:55,520
right?
And they would put themselves in

444
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,000
further danger because of that
panic and that fear.

445
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:03,560
Yeah, and the good thing about
her age is she didn't know all

446
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:05,200
the possibilities.
Right.

447
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:07,080
Which helps a lot, like you
said.

448
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,320
Basically what you're saying is
that she she didn't know about

449
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,640
being claustrophobic.
She didn't know that being

450
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,240
wedged that way was likely to
have at least part of her leg

451
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:18,800
lost.
She didn't know all of those

452
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,320
things.
And that, I think, can really

453
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,080
help if the possibilities are
unknown.

454
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:29,080
I think it's a little easier not
to panic thinking about all the

455
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,840
possibilities.
And I remember them talking

456
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,080
about how she was singing the
lullabies to herself that her

457
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,080
mom used to sing to her or sang
still did.

458
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:43,960
I mean, she was not used to I
she sang to her and I imagine

459
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,600
that's one of the reasons they
knew she was OK is when she

460
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,760
would start making sounds again
because she would stop making

461
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,640
sounds for a while and they
hoped that she had fallen asleep

462
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,800
versus died, but they didn't
know until she started making

463
00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:59,640
sounds again.
Also, I was thinking about it

464
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:01,960
too.
Can you imagine the sounds that

465
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:05,360
must have been around her and
how how magnified they were

466
00:25:05,360 --> 00:25:07,680
underground?
Some of them would have been

467
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,880
muffled, but some of them would
probably have been magnified as

468
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,960
well.
One of the things that they were

469
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:19,240
working out was how far below
her did they need to dig to make

470
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:23,000
the horizontal tunnel and how
far away from her the vertical

471
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,040
tunnel without compromising
everything else.

472
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,160
And they couldn't put anything
into support it.

473
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,600
They couldn't do anything.
I remember that being a huge

474
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:33,200
discussion going how do we do it
and give her the best chance of

475
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,400
survival, even just getting to
her.

476
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:41,120
Yep, exactly.
And just the yeah, we talked

477
00:25:41,120 --> 00:25:46,680
about the paramedic, I believe
it was Robert O'Donnell and how

478
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,600
it was so stressful for him and
I'm.

479
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,800
And he wasn't even the one doing
the drilling and you know, that

480
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,000
sort of thing.
He was just, like you said, the

481
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,600
smallest person to go down into
that newly dug.

482
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:03,680
So just the stress of, well, I'm
sure being the the one

483
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:05,800
responsible for her ultimate
survival, right?

484
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,720
Because you're the one that has
to pull her out and get her up

485
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:11,880
to safety.
If you don't, that's on you,

486
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,800
right?
And even, I mean, even if let's

487
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:19,760
say the new, sorry, I guess well
got well that they dug, even if

488
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:24,320
that had collapsed unrelated to
anything that Robert had done,

489
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,480
it's still probably would have
been, you know, what did he do

490
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,320
to 'cause that?
And I can imagine that that, you

491
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:33,600
know, like I said, that's kind
of where he got caught up and is

492
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:35,840
all the possibilities that could
have happened if it had gone

493
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,720
wrong.
And I feel really sad that he

494
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,720
could not just be happy with the
outcome that did happen.

495
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,920
Because it just, it just makes
me sad.

496
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,720
I'm I, I'm kind of speechless,
which is terrible for a podcast,

497
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,440
but it just really makes me
really sad because, you know,

498
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,360
that's something to be proud of
and that's something that is

499
00:26:56,520 --> 00:27:00,040
amazing and truly miraculous.
And it's just a bummer.

500
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,960
Well, and also in a totally non
judgmental way, not like we're

501
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,160
like what a jerk.
We're not doing it it.

502
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,800
I can't even imagine.
And also thinking of it from his

503
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,720
point of view, he had to go down
this hole and cross the ways and

504
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:14,200
if it had collapsed, he would
have died.

505
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:20,120
So there was that part too,
which probably was, I mean, it

506
00:27:20,120 --> 00:27:25,120
had to have been on his mind,
but I imagine his, his desire to

507
00:27:25,120 --> 00:27:27,480
save Jessica was a higher
priority.

508
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,960
And just, I mean, I guess
talking this part out of it, I

509
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:36,240
can see how this would be very
difficult if he had.

510
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,520
I don't know if he was old
enough to have his own kids.

511
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,800
I can't remember how old he was,
but also if they had.

512
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,800
I imagine as a paramedic, if it
was eight years later, I doubt

513
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,960
he was a 15 year old paramedic,
so he was probably children.

514
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,920
I don't know if he had children.
Yeah, and if he had his own

515
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,640
kids, that would also lay
another layer on it.

516
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,840
That's one of the reasons I
couldn't work Pediatrics or

517
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,920
NICU, because I had small
children when I first started

518
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:03,880
nursing.
And I knew I was already

519
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,720
concerned enough because I think
of, oh, OK, this could happen.

520
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:09,800
This could happen because I'm a
nurse and I already know all of

521
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:11,480
that.
But if I had watched it in the

522
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,960
hospital and watch kids to come
from things that I didn't want

523
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,480
to have to be worried about that
for my own children, I, I just

524
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:20,840
felt like I couldn't do it.
It wasn't a fit for me.

525
00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:22,640
But there's so many layers on
this.

526
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,640
Yeah, OK, so I looked it up and
the saddest part about Robert's

527
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,240
tragic death that I'm quoting a
Facebook page for Baby Jessica.

528
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,680
The saddest part of Robert
Roberts tragic death was that he

529
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,160
left behind two young sons,
Chance and Casey O'Donnell.

530
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,880
Yeah, so that's a bummer.
That is.

531
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,280
Jessica McClure captured the
world's heart because she fell

532
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,200
into the unimaginable and
somehow lived to tell the story.

533
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,800
She wasn't the 1st and she
wasn't the last, and she won't

534
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,120
be the last.
There's something about a cry

535
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,840
from beneath Earth, something
ancient, something primal that

536
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,320
pulls at us even now.
So I want to share a few other

537
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,320
stories.
Stories of survival, of

538
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,040
heartbreak, and how sometimes,
despite everything, we keep

539
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,080
reaching for the light.
Before baby Jessica, there was

540
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,120
Kathy Fiscus.
Have you ever heard of the story

541
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,880
of Kathy Fiscus?
The name sounds familiar but I

542
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,440
can't place it right now.
OK, in 1949 in the small town of

543
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,120
San Marino, CA, 3 year old Kathy
was playing with friends in a

544
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,680
field.
There, like in so many places,

545
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,080
shaped by human hands and
forgotten by time and old well

546
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,240
waited, uncovered, open,
waiting.

547
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,160
Kathy fell in.
The well was 14 inches wide,

548
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,200
wider than Jessica's but just as
deadly.

549
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,400
Rescuers worked feverishly for
nearly two days to reach her

550
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,360
while the entire West Coast
listened listened live on the

551
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,360
radio.
So this was live broadcast on

552
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:47,080
the radio because it was 1949
rather than CNN.

553
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,160
But it was the first time
America followed a disaster

554
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,560
unfolding in real time.
Millions waited, prayed, cried.

555
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:55,800
But when they finally reached
Kathy, it was too late.

556
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,400
She had died hours before rescue
crews had even arrived.

557
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,120
Kathy's death shattered her town
and changed America.

558
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,760
Wells were sealed.
New emergency protocols were

559
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,760
imagined.
But as you know, memory fades.

560
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,920
And by 1987 in Midland, TX,
another forgotten well would

561
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,280
wait.
Yeah, wow.

562
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:21,280
To know that that lid was off
most of the time, I don't think

563
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:25,080
people would have thought that
the hole that Jessica went into

564
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,280
would even be big enough to
cause a problem, maybe break an

565
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:29,320
ankle or something.
But right.

566
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,560
That's what I was to say.
Maybe even like, yeah, like a

567
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:33,400
sprain, A groin or something,
right?

568
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,280
Yeah, but but why would a kid be
there?

569
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,840
Why would you?
All the things and it's just a

570
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:43,320
second of I, I just keep coming
back to my daughter.

571
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,840
And I think I've shared this
with you Crystal before, but not

572
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,680
our listeners, that when she was
about Jessica's age, well,

573
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,560
probably smaller because she
wasn't really crawling yet.

574
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,120
So she would have been maybe
eight or nine months old.

575
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:58,120
And she was at my sister's
house.

576
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,480
My sister was watching her.
I had come over.

577
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:02,240
It was after work and so we were
just visiting.

578
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,080
Juliana was taking a nap on my
sister's bed.

579
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,800
My sister surrounded her with
pillows because she was still

580
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,000
not really moving that much,
whatever age that was for her.

581
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:16,240
And I went in there and we had
to go and she had had an hour or

582
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:18,160
whatever I thought was long
enough, and so I went in to

583
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:20,560
check her.
The child was hanging from her

584
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:22,920
head between the wall and the
bed.

585
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:27,360
Oh, jeez, Just hanging there,
not crying, doing nothing.

586
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:29,680
And I was.
Oh, my gosh.

587
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,640
And so I grabbed her.
She was happy as the clam.

588
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,480
She just, hey, what, You know,
she just was all gibbly.

589
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,160
Gibbly, Yeah.
Gibbly she was so Gibbly Gibbly

590
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,800
Gibblets giblets she.
Was just laughing and and

591
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,440
visiting with me and stuff and I
was just like you were just

592
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,880
hanging from your head kid.
And she was perfectly fine.

593
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:50,280
There was no bruising, there was
nothing.

594
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,320
I have no idea how long she was
hanging there, not very long

595
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,760
because I had checked her when I
got there, but literally it

596
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,400
could have been an hour because
I checked her when I got there

597
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,320
she was sound asleep.
So I went and visited with my

598
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,080
sister and there she was just
hanging there and no one was at

599
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:05,440
fault.
I mean, we didn't expect her to

600
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,880
be able to move and I still
don't know how she did, but

601
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:12,400
there she was hanging and and
not even just move, but get to

602
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:16,480
the point that she was hanging
by her head and it was just

603
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:17,760
wild.
Yeah.

604
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,240
And it wasn't.
Nobody did anything wrong.

605
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,720
It was, it seemed, reasonable.
All of it, Yeah.

606
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,920
What's the word I'm looking for?
It was just a freak accident of

607
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,240
a freak.
Appearance and fortunately it

608
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,320
turned out OK.
Yeah, thank goodness.

609
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,080
Did you have any other examples?
I do.

610
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:35,680
I have.
I wanted to talk about also the

611
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:40,320
Chilean miners. 60 years after
Kathy's fall, another survival

612
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:44,120
story unfolded, deeper, darker,
but filled with the same

613
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:48,120
desperate hope.
On August 5th, 201033 miners

614
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,640
were working underground at the
San Jose Copper mine in Chile

615
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:56,280
when the earth shook, tunnels
collapsed, walls caved in and

616
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:00,040
the miners, ordinary men,
fathers, brothers, found

617
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:05,320
themselves trapped in nearly
sorry excuse me, nearly 2300

618
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:13,640
feet beneath the surface.
For the 1st 17 days, 17 days, no

619
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:15,320
one even knew if they were
alive.

620
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,920
Families camped outside the mind
mouth.

621
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:25,760
Flags flew, candles flickered,
songs of survival and prayers of

622
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:30,480
hope filled the desert.
Finally, after 2 1/2 weeks, a

623
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,800
drill broke through.
Attached to the drill, a simple

624
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:37,840
note scrawled in in thick red
letters.

625
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:43,600
Estamos bien en El refugio Los
tresu dente.

626
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:46,960
We are well in the shelter.
The 33.

627
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:48,440
Yeah.
Is it?

628
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:53,800
Did I say right?
No, but well, I tried it's.

629
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:59,480
Not German, what do you know?
What followed was one of the

630
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:01,440
most astonishing rescue
operations.

631
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:06,760
Remember, they were down there
for 17 days and there were,

632
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:08,600
gosh, I just forgot the number
of how many there were.

633
00:34:08,639 --> 00:34:12,239
That's embarrassing. 30
something I forgot 33.

634
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,080
I just said the 33.
Silly girl.

635
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:17,880
So what followed was one of the
most astonishing rescue

636
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,080
operations in modern history.
Small capsules built to fit

637
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,480
through narrow shafts designed
to bring up the men one by one

638
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,840
through a 2000 foot climb in
near darkness.

639
00:34:28,199 --> 00:34:35,520
After 69 days underground, all
33 men were pulled to the

640
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:37,960
surface alive.
Yeah, and the whole process.

641
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,440
Oh, I'm sorry, I was going.
To say miracle born from pain.

642
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,320
Right.
And the whole process of getting

643
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:48,719
them things to survive and, and
water and air and.

644
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:53,199
I mean they didn't even reach
them for 17 days.

645
00:34:54,679 --> 00:34:55,920
They didn't even.
Yeah, that's right.

646
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:57,440
They.
Didn't even know they were

647
00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,320
alive.
And actually, I don't even know.

648
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,040
Finally after 2 1/2 weeks.
See, I I'm not even following my

649
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:02,960
own facts.
Good heavens.

650
00:35:05,240 --> 00:35:07,040
Getting all my numbers mixed up.
Yeah.

651
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:11,640
So after 2 1/2 weeks.
So 2 1/2 weeks is 7 + 7 is 14.

652
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,520
When 28 days?
No, 18 days.

653
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:16,360
Oh, it's the same.
OK, this is all done.

654
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,760
We don't math.
OK, so they were there 2 1/2

655
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:23,400
weeks before anybody knew they
were alive.

656
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,840
It's wild.
And you know, I have another

657
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,720
story I want to tell you that's
a little bit different, but it's

658
00:35:30,720 --> 00:35:33,080
another.
You could consider it a survival

659
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,200
story.
But you know, sometimes survival

660
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,960
stories don't end in rescue.
Sometimes they just.

661
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,280
Yes, please.
May I interrupt because I

662
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:45,400
remember one of the things being
talked about with the 33 is

663
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,360
frankly, how much effort are we
going to put into this?

664
00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:50,840
Right.
Because it was Because.

665
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:52,400
What are the odds?
Right.

666
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,320
There were such a low chance
that that these folks had

667
00:35:55,320 --> 00:36:00,440
survived and there there was a
lot of money spent and of

668
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,080
course, time and resources and
things.

669
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:04,880
And at a point they're going,
what are the odds that they're

670
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:06,360
alive?
It's probably very low.

671
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:08,640
They probably aren't.
So we're just going to go and

672
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,200
find their bodies.
But then people said yeah, and

673
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:15,120
we need to go find their bodies.
Yeah, we need that closure.

674
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,120
Go ahead, I just remember that
being a discussion.

675
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,800
No, that's OK.
Again, you know, sometimes,

676
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,000
sometimes survival stories don't
end rescue.

677
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:24,200
Sometimes it just didn't
mystery.

678
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,600
And I think we may have talked
about this another time.

679
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,320
I honestly can't remember.
But this is about Brandon

680
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:35,840
Swanson, who drove into a
shallow ditch late one night in

681
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,720
Marshall, MN, in May 2008, who's
19 years old.

682
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:41,280
And he called his parents for
help.

683
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,400
Sounding calm, embarrassed even,
but not panicked.

684
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,520
They stayed on the phone with
him as he tried to walk toward a

685
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:51,120
landmark they both knew.
For almost 45 minutes, Brandon

686
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:52,960
chatted lightly.
I'm almost there.

687
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,760
I see the lights.
And then suddenly he said, oh,

688
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,320
shit.
And the line went dead, and

689
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:02,080
Brandon was never seen again.
Extensive searches turned up

690
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,080
nothing.
No sign of struggle, no

691
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:07,520
clothing, no remains.
It was as if he had simply

692
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,600
vanished.
Many people believe he fell into

693
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:16,360
an unmarked well or fluttered,
fluttered, flooded cistern

694
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,200
hidden in the fields.
Others believe the ground simply

695
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,480
swallowed it up a hidden river
or steep ditch.

696
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,240
Brandon's story reminds us that
not all rescues come in time,

697
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:27,640
and not all cries are heard soon
enough.

698
00:37:28,240 --> 00:37:31,760
Yeah.
Forgotten wells are truly a

699
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:35,480
hidden epidemic.
Since baby Jessica's rescue,

700
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,360
dozens of children around the
world have fallen into abandoned

701
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:41,920
wells, cisterns and shafts.
Not all were as lucky.

702
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:46,520
Regulations improved after 1987,
but forgotten wells still dot

703
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:50,800
rural landscapes, unmarked,
unsealed, unwaiting.

704
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,640
Each year, stories still
surface.

705
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,800
A toddler in India pulled from a
bore well after 58 hours.

706
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,520
A child in Tunisia, lost inside
a collapsed irrigation shaft.

707
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,920
Farmers falling into cisterns
hidden by overgrowth.

708
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:08,600
The Earth keeps its secrets
well, and the Earth doesn't

709
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:13,760
always give them back.
I have one more that's a little

710
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,280
bit different.
Again, this is about Alfie

711
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:18,840
Evans.
Sometimes the trap isn't beneath

712
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,040
our feet, sometimes it's inside
our own bodies.

713
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,760
Alfie Evans, born in Liverpool
in 2016, suffered from an

714
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,680
undiagnosed neurological
disorder that left him in a semi

715
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:30,880
vegetative state for over a
year.

716
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,080
His parents fought doctor's
court, even political debates

717
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,400
and ethical questions.
At its heart, it was the story

718
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,360
of two parents refused to stop
fighting for their child's next

719
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,480
breath.
Alfie passed away in April 2008,

720
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:47,800
but not before his story changed
medical law and but and not

721
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,600
before he made the world look
again at the fight between

722
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:54,440
survival and suffering.
Just come across stories about

723
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,680
more than a girl in a whale.
It's about all the moments when

724
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:01,120
humanity holds its breath,
reaching it, reaching down into

725
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:04,880
the dark with nothing but hope.
Sometimes we pull them out,

726
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:09,920
sometimes we don't.
But we should always try because

727
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,720
that's what survival demands.
Not perfection, not victory,

728
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,640
just the stubborn refusal to let
go.

729
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,920
And I think that's exactly what
you were kind of alluding to

730
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:21,640
with those Chilean miners,
right?

731
00:39:22,720 --> 00:39:26,160
We can't just assume that it's a
tomb.

732
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:28,080
And I did not mean to make that
rhyme.

733
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:34,800
And I think that's one of those
miraculous stories because 3333

734
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,080
people is a lot of people, a lot
of people.

735
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:43,920
And for all of them to survive
for what was it 60 something

736
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:48,840
days on, on, I don't know what
then, you know, 69 days and

737
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,160
maybe they had food with them.
I imagine 69 days is a lot of

738
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:53,800
days.
Nobody had that much food.

739
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,160
Yeah, true, because this is AI
got lunch boxes.

740
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:01,600
I didn't actually, I didn't
actually look into their full

741
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:04,640
story as far as like.
Like how they survived.

742
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,280
But yeah, it's, it's crazy.
Yeah.

743
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:13,920
And if I remember that's there
was some either active or

744
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:19,200
recently active air tube that
they were able to get some stuff

745
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,920
down or they were able to dig
something big enough to put some

746
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,400
supplies down and some air.
Because that's the other thing

747
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,560
they were worried about is what
fumes were building up in the in

748
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,760
The Cave that could be killing
these folks.

749
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,400
Because even if they were alive
at the beginning, could they

750
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,400
have survived all of the gases
that are happening under the

751
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:40,880
earth all the time?
So interestingly enough, when

752
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:44,240
they were first found and they
sent up the note, the 33 of us

753
00:40:44,240 --> 00:40:47,080
are in the shelter.
The 33 of us in the shelter are

754
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:51,960
well, they started sending
letters through it says doves,

755
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,200
quotation mark doves.
I'm not sure we know what doves

756
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:57,880
are in the old time miny, old
time, old timey, good timey

757
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:01,120
mining, but I'm not sure.
I doubt they're actually birds

758
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,560
because it's in quotation marks.
But.

759
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,640
They never Canaries anyway.
True, you're right.

760
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:12,480
Canary full mine dumb though.
Then Then later they were able

761
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,280
to send down or send in.
I don't know if it's the only

762
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:18,400
power was a fiber optic line
which enabled phone calls and

763
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:20,920
video conferencing.
Doctors also passed down a

764
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,760
biometric belt which allowed the
miners to monitor and transmit

765
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,520
their vital signs using wireless
technology.

766
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,280
Once they were discovered, the
men quickly established a

767
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:32,040
regular meal schedule, including
breakfast, lunch, dinner and an

768
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,680
afternoon tea.
Supported by a 500 Watt power

769
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,840
line, they installed lights to
simulate day and night to

770
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:41,400
diminish the impact of their
eventual return to the service.

771
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,440
Physiologists set up obligatory
exercise schedules to keep the

772
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,280
men fit for their trying passage
of the escape shaft, which they

773
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,200
may have to hold the same
posture for as much as an hour.

774
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,080
The miners began to help with
the drilling process, taking

775
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:57,280
shifts to clear away debris that
fell into the tunnel of the

776
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:00,960
mine.
They entertained themselves by

777
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:05,000
setting up small quote UN quote
casino where they played cards,

778
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:10,520
Domino's and dice games.
They also were able to install a

779
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:16,000
live feed of games like Chile's
friendly match against Ukraine

780
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:20,320
using a small projector.
I have no idea how they did that

781
00:42:21,240 --> 00:42:23,360
because that was before I
believe that was before they

782
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,320
were found.
Let's see, despite maybe maybe

783
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:27,800
that was after they were found
just.

784
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:29,360
Yeah, they had to have known
where to send it.

785
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:33,880
Well, and the crazy thing too is
when you talk about being

786
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:37,040
underground and and they sent
the lights, which almost seems

787
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:40,080
silly.
They need one of the biggest

788
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:43,840
challenges is the mental piece.
And if they were on there and

789
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,080
they had no idea that we was
trying to help them, even if it

790
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,320
was a shorter period of time, I
can't even imagine the mental

791
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,120
stress and strain that it would
take just to be OK.

792
00:42:53,240 --> 00:42:57,520
Just to not really lose your
mind down there in the dark and

793
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:02,680
have no hope and maybe not even
really knowing what direction

794
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:04,400
they needed to be going or
moving.

795
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,720
Should we dig up?
Should we decide dig sideways?

796
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:08,320
Do we just wait here?
What do we do?

797
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:13,240
Because they had to have had
some sort of tools, but I

798
00:43:13,240 --> 00:43:16,200
wouldn't have thought everything
they, certainly everything they

799
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:19,520
needed wasn't available.
Here's an interesting fun fact.

800
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:23,760
At one point they sent up 8
hours of their favorite jokes on

801
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:30,680
film.
Oh my God, what again, this is

802
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,640
this is similar to to baby
Jessica and it actually

803
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:37,120
contradicts what I said earlier
because they just just chose to

804
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:42,280
keep hope and not just hope, but
to maintain as best they could

805
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:46,040
their their mental health.
It's such a beautiful story

806
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:48,880
about survival instinct.
And it takes a pretty powerful

807
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:51,560
person to be able to do that.
And maybe the fact that there

808
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:54,080
were 33 of them, they could whip
each other into shape.

809
00:43:54,720 --> 00:43:58,600
But if a person was down there
by themselves, I would be

810
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,160
surprised if they would be
mentally OK when they got out.

811
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:03,000
Yeah.
Oh, for sure.

812
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:05,000
Because you hear about.
Things or even if they would get

813
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:06,840
out.
Yeah, and you hear about things

814
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:10,640
in prisons where the person is
in solitary for X period of time

815
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:12,200
and they start losing it all
together.

816
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:17,360
Even even though they knew that
they were air quote safe, they

817
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,760
still didn't have the
stimulation, didn't have anyone

818
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:24,440
to talk to.
And if it there was light issues

819
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,760
or cold issues or whatever like
that, people will lose it all

820
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:29,880
together and they're in a
situation like that.

821
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:33,080
Yeah.
So listeners, we would love to

822
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:38,360
hear any stories that you have
that are stories of how one

823
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:43,400
moment changed your life forever
or how one accident changed your

824
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:45,600
life forever.
Or even how you just have a

825
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:47,680
survival story.
Or even just, yeah, just a

826
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:52,560
survival story, or if you have
stories of people in your

827
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:55,760
neighborhoods or just send us
stories if you'd like to, you

828
00:44:55,760 --> 00:45:03,840
can send those to field notes,
FIELDNOTES at our M4 pod.com.

829
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:09,360
So that's OUR letter M the
#4pod.com.

830
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:15,520
Again, that's field notes at our
M4 pod.com.

831
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:18,640
Excellent.
I'm looking forward to seeing

832
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:20,840
some of those things.
Thanks for that, Crystal.

833
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:24,160
It's nice to have those little,
little vignettes, if you will,

834
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:27,640
about things that people have
survived.

835
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:31,200
And as you said, some of the
stories don't include survival.

836
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,600
And every time I think these
things happen, we have an

837
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:36,920
opportunity to learn something,
whether something about

838
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:40,320
ourselves, about the will to
live, about ways that we maybe

839
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:43,400
we want to be prepared.
You listen to stories about

840
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:45,680
people have been buried in the
snow and you're supposed to take

841
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:49,160
a giant breath and put your arms
out as far as you can to make

842
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:52,560
your space as big as possible.
And there's other things that I

843
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:54,760
if I were in the snow area
anymore, I should know.

844
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:58,560
But there are techniques in
those spaces and times that if a

845
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:02,800
person is aware enough when
something's happening, then they

846
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:05,800
can do it.
My question for myself would be,

847
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:07,400
would I even think of it or just
go wow?

848
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:13,080
I think the propensity would be
to scream, which is letting air.

849
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,240
Out.
Instead of pulling it in right.

850
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:18,720
Well, I think I've talked.
I, I think I said this before, I

851
00:46:18,720 --> 00:46:24,240
marvel at some survival stories
because like I broke my ankle a

852
00:46:24,240 --> 00:46:31,360
couple years ago and it hurt a
lot and I cried a lot, even like

853
00:46:31,720 --> 00:46:34,440
barely touching.
It hurts so bad.

854
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:38,120
And then you hear stories of
people who like walk 15 miles on

855
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:41,880
a broken leg and a broken ankle
and a broken arm.

856
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:44,520
And I'm just like, I don't think
I could do that.

857
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:47,440
I mean, I've, I don't want to be
put in this situation either,

858
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:49,960
but obviously I've never been in
a life or death situation to

859
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:54,920
that extreme.
But I just, oh man, I, I marvel

860
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:59,680
at that having experienced
exactly what that feels like.

861
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:03,280
I know what it feels like to
have a broken ankle, you know, a

862
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:06,360
trimaliolar fracture, which
means breaks in my ankle as well

863
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:08,760
as my tibia broken.
I know how that feels.

864
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:12,120
And so the idea of I was
transported by ambulance on a

865
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:13,720
stretcher.
I didn't have to walk anywhere

866
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:15,680
until I got home, but that's a
different story.

867
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:20,400
I, I can't even, I can't even
imagine walking five feet on

868
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:22,960
that ankle, let alone 15 miles
or whatever.

869
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:27,640
You know, it just, I mean, my
hat's off to them because I just

870
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:30,360
don't know if I could do it.
I don't know if I if I would do

871
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:32,280
it.
When I feel like there's some

872
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:34,920
people that have a stronger
survival instinct than others,

873
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:39,960
just by nature and attitudes,
they come into things and just

874
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:41,920
know, well, I got to do it.
So here I am.

875
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:44,960
Yeah.
And, well, don't know how that

876
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:46,920
would happen.
I mean, obviously, you know,

877
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:50,560
with a lot of pain, it can, it
can really stop things.

878
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,000
And also our survival can
decrease if we're in a lot of

879
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:56,800
pain because we're in that whole
panic moment and our bodies are

880
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,160
hyper, hyper acting, if you
will.

881
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:00,720
Yeah.
Yeah, and that can make a

882
00:48:00,720 --> 00:48:02,360
difference too.
Another thing that can make a

883
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:05,440
difference, I was just thinking
is if it's my child that's in

884
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,800
danger, like I'm going to have a
whole different reaction if it's

885
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,640
my child than if it's myself.
I even had a whole different

886
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:13,680
reaction.
And then I think I would for

887
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:16,800
myself with my brother who
passed away 19 years ago.

888
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:17,760
Almost.
Yeah.

889
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:21,720
I just, I don't know, it's, it's
fascinating survival.

890
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:23,920
Obviously we're not sponsored by
them or anything, but if you

891
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:27,600
like survival stories, come back
to our podcast for more of them.

892
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:31,680
But there's also a show called I
Survived that is quite good and

893
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:33,800
is all about survival stories,
believe it or not.

894
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:36,880
I know it's hard to tell from
the title, but that's what it's

895
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:37,960
about.
What?

896
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:41,360
It's a descriptive title.
Well, thanks, Crystal.

897
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:45,080
I look forward to our next
recording, our next interesting

898
00:48:45,240 --> 00:48:48,040
episode of our M4 podcast.
I do too.

899
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:50,800
All right, if you've made it
this far, clearly you like a

900
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:52,480
little mayhem with your
medicine.

901
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,280
Or you just enjoy hearing us
ramble about weird medical

902
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:57,480
mysteries.
Either way, we'd love you for

903
00:48:57,480 --> 00:48:59,680
it.
So hit that follow or subscribe

904
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:01,080
button wherever you're
listening.

905
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:03,240
And toss us a rating or review
while you're at it.

906
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:06,080
Helps other curious weirdos find
the show.

907
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:08,880
And we know there are a lot of
you out there.

908
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:11,720
Oh so many.
Come join the chaos.

909
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:14,920
Thanks for listening to
Medicine, Mystery, mayhem, and

910
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:17,560
sometimes Murder.
Do you have an idea for an

911
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:20,440
episode of this podcast?
Just want to say hi?

912
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,840
You can get in touch with us at
our M4 pod.

913
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:30,800
That's OURM
thenumberfourpod@gmail.com.

914
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:35,320
We read every e-mail, and
sometimes we even respond just

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00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:38,120
like real professionals.
Because we are.

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00:49:38,240 --> 00:49:43,000
Old friends with new twists and
lots of body bags.