Ep. 27: Mama, Just Killed A Man

0:06 Welcome to M4 Medicine, mystery, mayhem, and sometimes murder. I'm Andrea Marciano and RN with 35 years of experience across various fields. From direct patient care in hospitals to home health, geriatrics, and injury medicine, I face life, death, and everything in between. And I'm Crystal Miller and RN with 13 1/2 years of experience. My work spans home health, Hospice, emergency care, geriatrics, and occupational health. From the chaos of trauma based quiet moments with patients, I've seen stories that defy explanations. We've been friends for over 25 years and as nurses we've shared countless stories that have left us and our families speechless. Now we're bringing those stories and many more to you in medicine, mystery, mayhem, and sometimes murder.

0:53 Each week, we'll uncover cases that challenge the boundaries of medicine, sharing the human stories behind the science. From puzzling medical mysteries to shocking real life crimes, we'll bring you stories that'll leave you questioning everything you thought you knew while. We're both experiencing these nurses. We want to make it clear we're not here to give medical advice. This podcast is about storytelling, education and exploration, not diagnosing or treating medical conditions. This is medicine, mystery, mayhem and sometimes murder. Let's dive in. Hey Crystal, how you doing? I'm doing well. How are you? I am awesome, thank you very much. Enjoying the variable seasons that we get in the Pacific Northwest. Awkward not. I mostly have my voice back.

1:35 You'll probably know for those of you who may not have listened to previous episodes. I had some laryngitis for a couple episodes. Seems to be pretty much resolved. It does. You sound pretty normal. You don't sound like Kurt the Frog anymore. Actually, I guess you can't sound like Kermit. Kermit the Frog's older brother that has had a deeper voice. Don't know who that is. Yeah, that's me. Anyway, So what do you have for us today, Crystal? Today's one of the days we're going to do This is a sometimes murder day, and we're going to be diving into one of the most chilling true crime stories of the late 20th century. It's a story of privilege, obsession and betrayal, and a socialite's descent into delusion and a family's unraveling.

2:21 Have you ever heard of the Bradshaw murder? I don't believe I have. It's happened in Salt Lake City. It's I could only find one other podcast episode on it and it was, I'll just say, hard to listen to. So I hope that I do a better job of covering this and it's more interesting to listen to when I do it. No shade to that other podcast. I'm you know, people have have their preferences and I'm sure that that that podcast has devoted listeners. It just wasn't for me. So but I was surprised I can only find one, one podcast and it was even the podcast was just a murder podcast that this was one of the stories they told. It's just interesting to me because. Because usually these big murders are sort of beaten to death by everyone.

3:08 Yeah, they are. And there were two books written about this murder. One of them was I think 600 plus pages. The other one was 400 plus pages. Like there's a lot of back story in this in this murder, and I keep saying murder. It's kind of weird meow all of a sudden. But especially coming from Salt Lake City, it's a really interesting frame for how this all goes down, because when you think of Salt Lake City and what do you think of Salt Lake City, what do you think? Well, I think some of my family is still there. I think of beautiful mountains, nice places, mostly nice people, things like that. Pretty low in the in the big crime area I think, but that could be my lens. Do you think of like society or either debutant balls or coming out?

4:01 I was never in that neighborhood. I was not in that neighborhood. So if. It's happening, Yeah. So, so when people think of Salt Lake City, more than likely they think of Mormons. I'm just going to say it because it is a heavily Mormon populated area and they probably think they probably, if they're not familiar with it, probably have an idea of more what's kind of an Amish lifestyle. But I've I've talked to a lot of people who think that Mormons live like the Amish and don't use electricity and stuff like that. Obviously it's not that backwards. You and I both have lived in Salt Lake City. I'm from Utah. You're have lived in Utah for a long time until you move to the Pacific Northwest. So we know that it's not like that.

4:42 And there's classy stuff like Eccles Theatre, you know, you we get traveling Broadway shows there. Look, it's. It's not a. It's not a. Backwards culture. It's not, it's not culture. Yeah, sure. We, we don't walk around, all of us, at least in our long dresses and little pinafores. It's we do. I mean, some of us obviously, like any community, do more of some things than other things. There are, like you say, there are plays, there are Broadway level plays, there's the ballet, there's the orchestra, there's all kinds of things that and there's tons of fundraisers and charity events and things where people would get dressed up and have ball gowns. I have a few myself. I actually did more of that sort of thing in Utah than I have since I've been here. Mostly if it's anything other than shorts and AT shirt I'm overdressed. That is true.

5:28 OK, Don't leave us hanging. What are your So what are your sources? One of my sources is Nutcracker Money Madness, Murder, a family album by Shanna Alexander, and another is a book at Mother's Request, a true story. And then also the documentary Dominic Dunn's Power, Privilege and Justice had an episode on this. And then my memory. And so do you want to say I read the book? I read it, Mother's Request when I was probably 13 or 14. My mom had told me about this. I, you know, I've been reading True Crime since I was a wee thing. Probably 12 years old is when I started and I started with Anne Rice and Rule.

6:09 I do that every time. I did not start with Anne Rice, but I did start with Anne Rule. That makes more sense. And then I just, I've read a lot of crime writers, sorry, true crime writers that don't write as well as she does, that's for sure. My mother's request was pretty good and pretty detailed. This is the story of the murder of Franklin Bradshaw. Have you ever heard of Bradshaw Auto Parts? Yes. Are they related? Uh huh. Franklin Bradshaw is the founder of Bradshaw Auto Parts. He was born in 1889 and he made his fortune in the oil and auto parts industries. One of the things I didn't know until I researched this episode for today is that he also had oil money. I wondered for I mean, let's say, let's say I read this when I was 14.

6:55 So I've wondered for 35 years how he was so rich because I just didn't believe that selling auto parts was going to make you. And you'll, you'll understand better when I get further into the story. But he had to be very, very wealthy to support some of the things that his daughter was doing. And so I, I remember thinking how just selling auto parts, could he be funding this lifestyle? So learning that he actually had he owned the most oil shares in the West or I can't remember exactly what the details are, but his fortune was in oil as well as the auto parts industry. Well, and a lot of people don't know that there is oil in Utah.

7:35 Yeah, yeah. And it's a pretty big deal. It's slowed down now, I think, but it was a really big the deal. I know there's a lot of active oil wells still, sure. But I don't think there's the money that there used to be in it. No, I doubt it. Yeah, Yep, I agree. So based in Salt Lake City, UT, which I actually haven't mentioned yet. This is Utah, for those who might not know, Franklin Bradshaw was worth millions by the time he reached his eighty. He wasn't your average millionaire. He lived like a man with only a few dollars to his name. And it's this is funny to me too. I'm sorry if I sound like I'm reading. I kind of am reading. This is also funny to me because my dad was also once a millionaire and he also lived like a man with only a few dollars to his name. You know, he was always wearing janky overalls over an old T-shirt.

8:20 I mean you caricature eyes my dad as like a cowpoke with a with a straw straw hanging out his mouth and a wicked, wicked a Wicker hat. I don't know what those are called in their hats, but you know, a straw hat on his head. Overalls are burned. But that's true, you know, though, actually the things I've seen with people who have a lot of money, that's not uncommon. And in some instances, because that's just who they are, and in other instances they dress kind of janky because they can. They're janky. May still be $2000 jeans, but it looks like they're the jeans that I will. Franklin Bradshaw.

9:03 Franklin Bradshaw's jeans or not. Turn around jeans Drovenil put pick up. He wore worn out clothes. When he needed new clothes, he bought them from the thrift store. He used a beer carton as a briefcase for his entire time at Bradshaw Auto Parts. And it wasn't an act. You know, he truly believed in thrift and, like you were just saying, maybe a bit of eccentricity. Like, my dad also is very happy to be eccentric in the dorkiest ways. So he was also deeply private, very cautious with money and became increasingly wary of his family as he got older and more wealthy. And he had a reason to be. So behind closed doors.

9:44 Nobody in the family treated Franklin's money like he did. They didn't want to be thrifty. They didn't want to live, you know, low. They lived in a very modest house. Also, I remember one of the documentaries I was watching while I did the research, people would say after he had died, people would want to come by and see the house, you know, and they're like, wait, he lived in that house. So it was just he just really just, I mean, that you could say he hoarded. I don't I don't want to use a negative connotation and that, but he just really just did not like to spend his money. And his wife wanted to his wife wanted to show that they have money and she wanted to have the new dresses and she wanted to have the but he was, you know, head of the household.

10:27 And what he said when she did still his wife is like Bernie's did still spend money behind his back that he wasn't aware of, but not so much that he would miss it. However, his money became a lifeline for his daughter Francis. She was a woman who would become everything he was Not So Francis. Before you carry on, remind me the time frame this is. Again, I can't recall the 1800s. Right now we're in the 1800s. In the 1930s, we're going to we're going to end up in the late 70s. Wow. OK, Yeah. So Francis Bernice Bradshaw was born in 1938 in Utah. She had beauty, charm and ambition and a dangerous sense of entitlement.

11:12 By her early 20s, she had moved to Manhattan and immersed herself in a world of glamour, influence and art. Spending dad's money? Sorry. Spending dad's money. Precisely. Precisely. And I tried to look at how she first how and why she went to New York and I wasn't really able to find a kind of a back story on that. So I don't know how she initially ended up in New York. I there's got to be, you know, maybe our listeners know or can find it. But in my research, I did not find how she ended up in New York. Now I obviously didn't reread, didn't reread that 600 and something page book and then other I didn't read the other 400 page books and it could honestly be in there as well, but I don't remember. I don't remember seeing it.

12:04 That's a wildlife change to go from Utah public area to New York City. It really is so in New York City, Frances married, divorced, remarried and then eventually lived apart from her second husband. But what she clung to more than any man was status. She joined the board of the New York City Ballet. She wore Tiffany's jewels, Tiffany jewels, excuse me, attended high society parties and bragged about connections she barely had. Francis's obsession with your high society was more than superficial. She saw herself as destined for greatness. She called herself an intellectual and a patron of the arts, but none of it, as you guessed, was funded by her own merit. Her father, Franklin, was footing the bill. And he didn't like what he said, what he saw. Because, you know, he's this frugal guy. And Manhattan in and of itself is expensive just living there, period.

13:02 Even if you're living there, being as waitress, as they say, right? Like, it's not cheap to live in in New York City. And then you get Manhattan, that's even less cheap. So by the mid 1970s, tensions between father and daughter had escalated. Bradshaw, disappointed with Francis's extravagant lifestyle, begin to tighten financial support. Monthly transfers dwindled and threats of being cut from the will emerged. Francis, unemployed and separated from her second husband, saw her I her entire identity and survival threatened. So at the peak of him sending her monthly checks before he stopped, before he started, they they dwindled down.

13:43 He didn't. She didn't get immediately cut off, but he did eventually stop sending money. But at the peak, he he was sending her $3000 a month. What is it? Today's time? Yeah. It's how much in today's? Three things. No, I'm asking you to guess. Oh yes, $20,000. Close. It's about $14,800. Wow. So I mean I wish I was getting $14,800 a month for. Nothing. No kidding. I mean, we could be sparkling. We could be. Seriously. Until. We wanted, I mean, it's a choice not to be right now, but we could be, right? Exactly. So oh man, I just can't even. I can't imagine.

14:27 OK, so keep in. Mind no I can't either 3. $1000 a month. But he was also still, you know, paying his own bills and whatever kids he had still at home. So Francis panicked. Her entire world, her image, her children's education, her reputation relied on that money. And she wasn't about to lose it. Yeah. This sounds like we're the hot thickens. And so you were saying just a second ago, whatever other children he had, do these stories not go into what other children are around or did you it? Well, it. Goes or is it relevant? It may not be. Relevant. What's relevant will come up. Yeah, OK, perfect. So eventually Francis had three children. One was Lorenzo, who went by Larry, one was Mark, and I don't know who the third one was.

15:18 I don't know why it's not in here, but irrelevant. We'll call him Henry for this moment. Oh dear, I'm sorry, sorry y'all, it's not important. Though. One of her sons mark Schroeder, because her married name was Schroeder. We're talking. We're still talking. Oh, OK, right. We're talking about Francis's child, Mark, who is Franklin's grandson. And Mark Schroeder was bright, soft spoken and somewhat emotionally fragile. He was 17 years old in 1978 when his mother began manipulating him into believing his grandfather was evil, cruel and an obstacle to their success.

16:01 So she was relentless with the gaslighting and the, you know, the manipulation, the mind, the, what's it called, brainwashing. Just absolutely convincing her children, particularly Mark and Larry, that how awful their grandpa was and how he didn't love them and he was going to ruin their lives and they were going to starve to death on the streets and just absolute. Ridiculousness, frankly. Were they still in New York or had they moved back to Utah? No, they were still in New York. But of note, the boys would come back in the summer and they would work for Franklin at the auto parts store.

16:41 And what while they were working at the auto parts store, they were frequently stealing money from like the till or the whatever and. On their mother's behest or just. Because that's, Oh no, just their shits. Yeah, perfect. Good day. I'm parenting there. Yeah, please. Still as much as you can and bring it home. Exactly. They would do drugs while they were there. I mean, they just were totally disrespectful of Franklin and he started to get a little peeved with them as well. So their relationship with him started to sour. And of course, Francis took advantage of that and made that about her and the money instead of about the way they were treating their grandpa and his response to that, right.

17:22 And again. That doesn't surprise me given what I know so far. Yeah, again, he's going to cut us off completely. We're going to be homeless. And eventually she told Mark He was the only one who could save them. So. For Mark, I feel really sad for Mark already. Yeah, I do feel I might feel bad about feeling sad, but still, he's being manipulated. Yeah, so in the summer of 1977, Francis had her son's poison Franklin Bradshaw's food in hopes of triggering A fatal heart attack. So that didn't work. And when it failed, Mark and Larry stole roughly $200,000 from Bradshaw's estate.

18:02 And in this case, when they did this, they took valuables and sold them and things like that. Oh I was going to say, how does one just pocket $200,000? Is it sitting around? From the yeah, not from the pill. Right. I was like, that's some big sticky fingers. Yeah. So they stole. Stephen hawked it. Yeah. Oh my gosh, these are some nice looking kids. And again, is this this is to they couldn't kill him, so now they're just stealing his money. Yeah, yeah, excellent. Yeah, nice. So, yeah, so. Have a nice family reunion this year, kids. Right. Francis had also planned to burn his warehouse down or use other legal methods, but none succeeded.

18:44 She also hired a hit man, allegedly. This has never been proven. A hitman named Miles Manning who turned out to be a fake, but he did end up helping her to procure a gun. So he's a fake, isn't he was a scammer or he just didn't really kill people? He just didn't really kill people. So he so he's sort of a scammer on both hands. Yeah, I'm guessing he probably was like, kill people all the time. And then when she's like, OK, kill my dad, he's like, but I'm just kidding, I don't do anymore. That's right. I think I'm retired now. Thanks. Bye. Yeah. But he was still hanging. Wait so dude says he's going to do something, scams are out of money and then still ends up helping? Helping her find a gun, Yeah, it's weird. This is very strange.

19:29 You know, some of these cases, and you may or may not touch on this later, but some of the way ways that people are able to manipulate other people is astounding to me. And it's almost always some female who has some whiles that they can, you know, get the guy. But Gee whiz, I feel like I wouldn't be scammed like that. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just think that I would notice anyway. So carry on. This is fascinating. So the morning of July 23rd, 1978, Mark flew from New York City to Salt Lake City and around 7:30 AM he walked into his grandfather's auto Parts auto parts warehouse. Franklin was sitting at his desk.

20:09 They spoke briefly and then Mark pulled out a 357 Magnum and shot his grandfather twice, once in the back and once in the head. He just shot him. Just said it something to the effect I mean, we don't know what he said right, but something to the effect of hey grandpa, how you doing or who knows right but then just. Shot him. Wait. And so was grandpa. Well, you might go on, but I'm just like, so he's just sitting there by himself. And he was in his 80s at this point, right? And yeah, he was just sitting by himself because he's early to early to rise, early to work, you know, that sort of person, right. So I think that I think I read somewhere that he slept like 4 hours a night and was working the rest of his life. No, by the way, he was not Mormon even though he lived in the Mormon majority And and the Mormon majority was much greater in the in the 1800s and you know, even up to the 70s than it is today. It was probably into the 90s percentile I would imagine at that point.

21:01 All of his employees that weren't his grandchildren were all Mormons. I mean, that tells you, I think kind of what we're thinking about. Yeah. And so far none of his other employees have tried to kill him, I don't think. No, no, I don't think so. So Mark rifled through Franklin's pockets to make it look like a robbery, then fled. And this was 70. So it predates a lot of, I mean it predates DNA and fingerprints don't do much good at this point. Right. At first, the authorities did believe it was robbery gone wrong, Something, you know, as is often the case, didn't seem right. There's no forced entry, no signs of struggle. And Franklin's family, especially Francis, seem oddly composed.

21:41 Now, it's fair to say that Franklin did not have a warm, cozy relationship with anybody in his family, his wife, Bernie's included, right? So I can see how they may not be melting down over his death. And frankly, from what I understand, I'm going to say allegedly because I don't want to get sued because there are still some folks alive, they enjoyed the money more than they enjoyed their fathers. So his death meant the money was all theirs now, right? And also a lot of people who are like this tend to be globally unpleasant, not just unpleasant to his family. So a lot of these cases even employees may have worked for him, but they may not have liked him because a lot of.

22:26 His employees didn't like him, but they. They did or did not. They liked working for him. They didn't know much about him. He stayed completely private at work so they said he was a good boss, told him what to do, paid him on time, but that's all they care about, his personal life. Yeah, interesting. But like I say, I have the different stories I've read and heard about. Most of the people that family didn't like it all has had some reason for it. Although he may have been innocent on why they didn't like him because he maybe didn't have loose enough purse strings but but still. Yeah. There's there's no indication, at least from what you said so far, that he was abusive or anything like that, was he? There's no indication I don't. I mean based on the fact that he was raising children in the 30s, I imagine he took a hands on approach to discipline.

23:13 Right, which is different from what we we experienced, hopefully, but probably not. I mean, nobody said, Oh my gosh, she would do XY and Z and that's why he was a horrible father. OK, cool. All right, so good. So he gets killed and then they're starting to think it's weird. The case kind of goes cold for. So they're still suspicious, but they haven't put anything together at this point, right? Right. They're like not no forced entry, you know, not really anything still on because like rifling through his pockets is very different than like file cabinets, file cabinets or until or something like that, right? Yeah, and also, I mean, the forced entry has less impact on me than other things because he could have just always left the door open and people could know that. So a forced entry isn't always a red flag to me for those reasons.

24:09 I think it's more now because more people lock things all the time, especially in the 70s. You're too young, but in my family rarely was a door locked even at night time. I'm not too young for are you kidding me? Well, I mean, OK, my doors. Weren't locked until I was in my late teens. Oh really? And actually specifically because we were threatened by somebody. Yeah, and ours got locked because of of an incident as well. But anyway, go ahead. There were theories, of course. You know, things like a pot strawberry business deal gone wrong, somebody who just didn't like Franklin. Who knew? But there was no proof, no weapon, no solid leads until someone talked. Oh, in a quiet. OK, first of all, I want to say one thing I've heard. Let me tell you this and I'll say the thing, but I'll tell it this way first.

24:56 In a quiet Manhattan police precinct, a young man walked in holding a secret he couldn't carry anymore. Oh my, Oh my God. Delicate. He wasn't just a friend of Mark Schroeder's. He was the friend Mark trusted most, the one he believed to keep his secret safe. And he'd been holding on to something for nearly two years. No kidding. Oh, Mark, did you flap your lips? And now people know a gun. He got the gun from the. 357 Magnum revolver that Mark used to kill his grandfather. He gave it to his friend for safekeeping, I guess.

25:39 Oh. Here, hide this, Hide this weapon of murder for me, please. Sure, I'll take a gun from him. That's what he said. Just hold this. Just hold it. Would you wipe the Prince off, Mark? He told the police that that Mark had given it to him not long after returning from Salt Lake City, told him not to ask questions and told them to hide it. OK, so in my in my life, wait in my life, if someone says here, hold this gun, but don't ask me any questions, that's going to trigger a red flag or two. I are here. Here's a bloody sword. Would you hold this for me? Don't worry about why it's bloody. No, no, my sister didn't just die. I don't know why you're asking.

26:23 Anytime anyone says don't ask any questions, that's the real time. I'm going to have a lot of questions. Right. OK. But his friend doesn't ask any questions, not for. And for two years he doesn't ask any questions. Oh my gosh. So their friendship might see here's the writing on the wall for me. Their friendship failed. Or their relationship air quotes if that's what it was, failed. So now he may have an extra grind. Maybe, but he he claimed that he was there because his conscience wouldn't wouldn't let him keep the secret. I can definitely see that too. I just I think it would eat away at a person, especially if they have suspicions, even if they don't know for sure. Good job.

27:05 So once the weapon was in police custody, it was tested, traced and confirmed. However, the police did not believe it was enough because they couldn't find because Frank, I'm sorry, Mark was allegedly in New York City and hadn't gone anywhere. And they searched the the manifest. They searched the manifest of all the flights from New York to Salt Lake that could have, you know, been timed for this murder to happen. And Mark was not on it. Now, I will say again, this is 1978. You can walk on a plane. Totally. No, there's no metal detectors. There's no literally you can walk in. You can actually buy your ticket at the gate where you now these days you check in and again, your name is is Michael Michael Martin Montgomery Martin. What?

27:54 You can tell them your name is Joe Smith. How's that? They don't care if you're. I would have gotten the other one for sure. Like my name is. Yes, I I will make a nondescript name. No one will notice. Reference. Reference. That's hilarious. Yeah, when I want to change my name, I'm going to definitely ask you what I should say. So they kind of, you know, they knew that, but one of the detectives decided that they were going to just for fun of it, check some other some some flight routes that had layovers. And sure enough, they found a layover. I believe it was in Albuquerque, but I don't want to be quoted on that. But it was New York City to I believe in Albuquerque and then Salt Lake City.

28:40 And it was in black and white, Mark Schroeder, his real name. So they had that. So of course, now it's time to make an arrest. Good idea. So within weeks, Mark Mark Schroeder was arrested in New York. And when detectives asked him why he did it, he was really tight lipped about it and didn't really have any good reasons. And eventually, with the the authorities kind of pressing on him, he admitted that it was his mother that had given him the instruction to kill his grandfather. Yeah, his mother, Franklin's daughter. It was in that moment the dam broke, the weapon no one thought they'd ever find delivered, and the tenacity of the police force finding Marks name on a manifest from New York to Salt Lake City, albeit not direct.

29:37 It was the end of 1 chapter in the beginning of another because as we said, he said that and his mother had put him up to it. So I keep saying I don't know why I was thinking about you want to know it's $1,000,000 idea. I should put it on a podcast out to the world so that I lose it. But you know what's $1,000,000 idea? An AI that just automatically edits voice stuff and takes out all the Umm's just automatically. You say the UMM button, they're all gone there. You go. That'd be amazing. I do think it would be amazing. Maybe I'll create it. OK, you should. I wanted.

30:18 I wanted. OK, we'll do it. So in 1982, Mark was convicted of second degree murder and served 12 years. He did end up testifying against his mother in a way that I think is astounding. She was actually charged and found guilty of first degree murder. Because she had asked for him to do it. Yeah, because she had put him up to it, basically. Right. So I intentionally wanted to look into how this affected the auto parts industry, just because Bradshaw was like a big name in auto. Bradshaw was a big name in auto parts when I was delivering auto parts in probably the late 90s.

31:03 Yeah, I remember it. Yeah, he was dead. So it it. But from what I could find, the murder didn't really have any impact on the auto parts industry. Bradshaw's holdings were quietly divided and absorbed and sold off. Other local business owners picked up the pieces. No disruption, no economic shock waves. The Broadway name just faded from ledgers and warehouses. And I remember that. I remember the warehouse that was Bradshaw Warehouse. And that I just remember because it was after I read this book that I was aware of it, of course. And I just remember watching the paint fade over time until eventually it was painted over and there was no more Bradshaw warehouse and it was wild to to experience. Francis was released from prison 13 years after she was found guilty in 1996.

31:55 That's all she got was 13. What was her sentenced for? Her sentence was for first degree murder. What's crazy is that Mark was sentenced to 12 years in prison, her second degree murder. So she got one year more even though hers was first degree murder and his was second. Degree murder. My goodness. Wow, I guess we didn't. Didn't bother her much back then I guess. Right, so here's the irony. Francis killed her father in large part to secure her inheritance. But Franklin had already disinherited her. She had nothing coming. So she met her life and her son's life. Which is my favorite word. That's not a word, Bernice.

32:40 Her mother never stopped supporting her daughter. She was a pushover. Well, maybe. Maybe her daughter did what she's wanted to do for years. Maybe, maybe so. After Francis was released from prison, there was a trust fund that Bernice had set up for her at a condo in California. But she spent it all in the end. She died in 2004, broken alone in Hospice. Interestingly, her death certificate listed her occupation as writer. I'd be curious to know if there are actually any publications out there by her. Yeah, Mark changed his name, lived quietly. He's never publicly spoken in detail about the case. Hasn't. Killed anyone else since then that we're aware of that. We're aware of, yeah.

33:20 Did Mark get anything? I mean, Francis was supported, but was Mark supported? I don't know. That's a great question. I it doesn't really say anything. They really focused on Francis in, I think, because I think because it was so manipulative and brainwashing and it was so obvious that she was behind it. I think that's why people focus on her and because she's a crazy, selfish bitch, frankly. Like, Oh my gosh. There's. That wow, if my dad was giving me $14,000 a month I don't think I'd be an asshole to him. You know, like craziness. Yeah, but remember he was cutting her off so she had to secure the future I. Just can't imagine. Heaven forbid she start working because actually, you know, at that point really if we think about he was 80 when he was killed, she would have probably been at least in her late 50s and never had lifted a finger to do a solitary thing. So I could see how she would totally be freaked outgoing. Wait, I don't even know how to work, let alone have any way to get a job.

34:20 I actually believe she was 40. I believe she was born in 38. Oh, OK. Let me see, even still, she was born in 38. So she was 40 when he was killed, but still, yeah. Having never worked, she would have. It's not like what's on your resume. Taking advantage of my father. Do I get a job for that? Got good experience? Who can I take advantage of? Yeah, well, she wanted to live like the robber barons, right? She wanted to sit in with them and like you. You can't you. It's new money, right? New Ori. She you can't. You can't buy your way into it. Yeah, she may have gotten on to the New York City Ballet, but that's because she donated money she didn't have. And that was The thing is she wanted so much to be elite and to be with the elite that that mattered more to her than her family. And something interesting also that I that I read is when they asked what one of the times they asked Mark why he did it, he just looked at them and said no.

35:18 But it's something to the effect of it. Nobody says no to mom or it's very hard to say no to mom. And it was just like, I also can't imagine anyone having that kind of mental control over me, right? That I wouldn't be able to say no to them if they asked me to do something illegal, immoral, insane. Well, of course, you look at lots and lots of people who end up doing stuff like this, and most people don't get brainwashed in an afternoon. This is something that's been happening for years and years and years. And you think of people who have been abused where the first day they were abused, if someone had whacked inside upside the head really hard, they wouldn't stand for it. But two years later, it's not that big a deal because they become desensitized to it or they realized only where they're going to get by. Because we have no idea what his Francis did to Mark or the other kids.

36:12 They had no idea they could he. She could have really been doing a lot more things in the background that no one said or that it just wasn't brought up. But even just word control can make a huge difference. Yeah. And it's also a very common feature in these killers, whether they're individual killers for personal gain or serial killers, they somehow are either good at believing they're something they're not, or they want so badly to be that that they, I think a lot of them start losing the ability to tell what is real and what is not real. They've been pretending for so long they they may not even remember what is real and what is not real.

36:55 I know we were talking about a topic recently on one of our episodes about how been told the story so many times. You you believe it, but then maybe talk about it with someone who really was in the story too. And your version was completely wrong. And it can be proven. But we've heard it one way or created in our minds one way. We actually believe that's what really happened. And I think the psychology behind people who are able to be manipulated like that is really interesting because you also said he was a fragile, emotional person. Was he fragile and emotional prior to his mother or I mean, did was he born that way or did he get built that way? Right. It's yeah. How much is nurture, How much is nature?

37:36 One of the things that one of the sources called it was a slow psychological poisoning, which I thought was really interesting. And also one of the things I, I thought I had remembered that Mark had like fetal alcohol syndrome or something like that. He did not. He was perfectly healthy as far as that goes. No mention of, you know, head injuries or anything like that. And says, there you go. The memory I made-up, right. I don't know if he was just a mama's boy. You know, maybe he was the easiest for Francis to manipulate. And so she latched on to that. I I honestly don't know. One of the things I was going to ask you, you said they attempted to poison him first. The boys attempted that. Do you? Do you have any idea what the poison was? Arsenic was the poison du jour.

38:19 I think it was rat poison, which would be arsenic. Yeah, it is. But yeah, they put some people have. It straight arsenic. Some people buy poison, so. Yeah, they put it in his lunch pail. I know that. This was back in the day of lunch pails. Yeah, I just. I just, you know, I just can't get over it. This is why this and This is why I was saying he had to have oil money to support this because you can't, you can't live in Manhattan. I believe she was on the Upper East Side, but don't quote me on that also because I can't remember. It was definitely not, you know, it's definitely not a walk up studio where you had to put your under socks and underwear in the oven. Oh, that sounds fun. Ron Bradshaw. That's scary.

39:00 Bradshaw. That's hilarious, and I can't imagine her being willing to walk up anywhere from what you described. So yeah, there and also there could have been some family money, but there was. If a person's in the right place at the right time, even if they don't have any other discernible skills, they can certainly create some good finances. I haven't been in the right place at the right time quite yet. Any minute now, though. Still waiting for mega Mega Millions lottery? Tickets. Yeah. No kidding. I guess I got to play. You got to buy the tickets. Yeah. But it's funny. People say money doesn't change a person. I don't know anyone who has sudden, especially suddenly gotten a lot of money and not changed.

39:44 And not always to the worst, but there's still going to be a difference. Yeah. Definitely. I'm willing to try just for the record listeners. I'd love to. Be the the Guinea pig for that. Yeah, I'm happy to see if I become a horrid person or I just enjoy my life and sharing more. That's probably it. Yeah, but don't worry, listeners, please send money too. I was, I was driving through a Richie Rich neighborhood yesterday and I live in a modest house. You know, it's not, it's fine. It's not shabby and not brand new, fancy and huge. It's just perfect for what we need. And I was like, if I won, if I won 138 million, I have no idea how much the lottery is, but like 138 million or 50 million or whatever it could be, would I buy a new house? And I was like, no, I love my house. I love my house.

40:32 But I would probably put a pool in the backyard. Well, if you work it right, then with all the storms you can just dig a hole and it's all good, no? Kidding. No kidding, but it's true. And also many, many people who do win the lottery end up more destitute they than they were when they began, partially because I personally think that there should be financial planning that is automatically assigned to someone when they win a large amount of money like that, because people just don't know. And so many of the people who do win have been very poor to start. And then everybody comes out of the woodwork and ask for stuff and they get scammed or or just don't understand that while it's $1,000,000 or more, a million isn't what it used to be.

41:17 And now suddenly you're making riskier choices, you're doing whatever. But I think it would be appropriate to have some, a financial planner assigned to them at the time of winning. And I don't think they are. I've never heard that. But it would be good. It would be good to help people, not throw all their money away. I know one of the things that people often don't think about is just the fact, you know, they go buy a big brand new house and it's like, yeah, it's cool that you can afford the house, but what the utilities for that house are going to be quadruple what the utilities were for you and your old, you know, your old house at least, at least. And tax. And then you and those don't change. You can't shrink the house you moved into. And so I think that gets people into a lot of trouble too.

41:57 It's just not the four side of it's not just by this house and we're all done here. However, again, listeners, feel free to send us money at any time. We're happy to accept it. We're also happy to win the Mega Millions, even if we don't play. We're we're willing to do. Yeah, we're willing. Well, that's been a great story, Crystal. Thank you. I had never heard of them. As far as the murder, definitely like you said, the Bradshaw auto parts, that's the plot thickens. The plot thickens. Yeah, and in the. Words of In the words of our our favorite murder. In the words of my favorite murder, that's kind of our hometown. This is true, it was a hometown for us, but both of us are kind of too young to at least remembered it. When yeah, I was thinking I was going to ask my dad if he knew Franklin Bradshaw, then I was like, my dad was like 36 and and still in school, so no.

42:53 Unless we worked for him at some point. Yeah, that's right. That's funny. All right. Well, cool. Thanks. Well, we'll have a a murder topic, a medical topic, a mayhem topic, or just a mystery topic in our next. Episode. That's right. Thanks y'all. All right, if you've made it this far, clearly you like a little mayhem with your medicine. Or you just enjoy hearing us ramble about weird medical mysteries. Either way, we'd love you for it. So hit that follow or subscribe button wherever you're listening. And toss us a rating or review while you're at it. Helps other curious weirdos find the show. And we know there are a lot of you out there. Oh so many. Come join the chaos. Thanks for listening to Medicine, Mystery, mayhem, and sometimes Murder. Do you have an idea for an episode of this podcast? Just want to say hi?

43:39 You can get in touch with us at our M4 pod. That's OURM thenumberfourpod@gmail.com. We read every e-mail, and sometimes we even respond just like real professionals. Because we are. Old friends with new twists and lots of body bags.