Ep. 8: Goodbye to Love

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Welcome to M4 Medicine, mystery,
mayhem, and sometimes murder.

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I'm Andrea Marciano and RN with
35 years of experience across

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various fields.
From direct patient care in

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hospitals to home health,
geriatrics, and injury medicine,

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I face life, death, and
everything in between.

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And I'm Crystal Miller and RN
with 13 1/2 years of experience.

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My work spans home health,
Hospice, emergency care,

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geriatrics, and occupational
health.

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From the chaos of trauma based
quiet moments with patients,

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I've seen stories that defy
explanations.

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We've been friends for over 25
years and as nurses we've shared

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countless stories that have left
us and our families speechless.

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Now we're bringing those stories
and many more to you in

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medicine, mystery, mayhem, and
sometimes murder.

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Each week, we'll uncover cases
that challenge the boundaries of

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medicine, sharing the human
stories behind the science.

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From puzzling medical mysteries
to shocking real life crimes,

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we'll bring you stories that'll
leave you questioning everything

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you thought you knew.
While we're both experienced

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nurses, we want to make make it
clear we're not here to give

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medical advice.
This podcast is about

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storytelling, education and
exploration, not diagnosing or

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treating medical conditions.
This is medicine, mystery,

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mayhem and sometimes murder.
Let's dive in.

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Hey Crystal, how are you doing?
I'm doing pretty great.

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How are you?
I am well, thank you.

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Went from like chilly with
thunderstorms to heat wave

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warnings.
Like it feels like overnight.

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I think it was over a few days,
but still it was pretty quick.

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So but I I mean, I enjoy it.
I don't like this super super

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duper thunderstorms that scare
me.

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They're going to flood my house.
But.

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Yeah, whenever anyone says
anything about weather with

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something, I always think
meatball, chance of meatballs.

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Yeah.
Cloudy with a chance of

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meatball, rainy with a chance of
meatballs, right?

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Yeah.
I always think that is

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ridiculous too, but that's what
always crosses my mind.

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So anything interesting going on
with you or your family?

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Yeah, my two daughters, my silly
daughters are going this evening

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to go get matching tattoos, and
I don't think there's a story

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behind it, but Teddy's get
giggling, so I'm guessing

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there's not a story behind it.
But the tattoos they're getting

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are matching geese, so each of
them is getting a goose.

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Keddie's has a knife and
Odyssey's has a cowboy hat.

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That's all I know.
It'll be interesting to see

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there'll be a story.
I have a funny Yeah, there will.

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I have a peripheral, A
peripheral funny story.

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We were talking to Keddie about
the tattoos.

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And at the time, me leaving, me
and Holly, Sue and Cedar.

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And at the time they hadn't
really decided what they we were

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gonna get.
I think they'd already decided

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Geese, but that was it.
And so we were just talking

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about possibilities.
And then Holly said, Kenny, I

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think you should get a tattoo
that says F you Odyssey.

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Oh no.
And then be surprised.

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Surprise her later.
That's right.

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Oh, all I want is a tattoo now
that says F you Odyssey.

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That's.
Funny.

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And as the tech is cleaning it
off, you're like, oh look how

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pretty it is.
What?

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That's actually funny.
If it weren't permanent, that

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would be.
They could do it with a magic

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marker or something first.
But anyway, that's awesome fun.

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I look forward to hear about
their exciting stories when they

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return.
Because getting tattoos is a

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thing, and it's interesting, and
sometimes more unpleasant or

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less unpleasant than one might
think.

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Yeah, I'm thinking I want to get
a sleeve.

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I'm trying to decide if I want
to get it on my just start on my

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forearm and go crazy from the
get go or build down from my

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tattoo that you know my Blue
Jays.

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Yeah, I think I've always liked
the ones in that start from the

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shoulder and go down because it
looks less odd to me.

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Yeah.
And also, if you start from your

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shoulder and go down and you
decide you just don't want a

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whole sleeve, then you still
have something good.

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Yeah.
True.

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Yeah.
Because to me, since it is

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permanent, I have the one on my
back that's in memory of our

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granddaughter who passed
Giuliana.

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Her mother was looking at it
today and noticed that the

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yellow was really light and
asked if I was going to get it

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redone.
And that's what the the tattoo

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artist did say is that the
yellow would fade fast.

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Yeah, I, I don't know, I haven't
really looked at it closely

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myself for a while because it's
on my back, so I don't really

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see it.
I probably won't, mostly because

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it's not necessarily a fashion
statement.

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It just means what it means to
me.

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Sure, sure.
So but I don't know if it looks

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too weird, then maybe I will,
but I, I never see it so.

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And mostly anyone who does see
it sees the part that still has

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good color because.
It's.

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Above.
Above it, sure.

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I mean, I don't go topless very
often, so T-shirts or bathing

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suits even I don't think show
the part that's faded and it's

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only faded just because it was
yellow to start.

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Actually, I saw a really
interesting picture on an

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Instagram thing.
It's called creepy, creepy

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medical pictures.
And one was someone who had a

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probably a third degree sunburn
and the skin was peeling off and

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the underlying color on their
tattoo was so bright.

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And I know, and I didn't look
into it.

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I don't know if it's real
nowadays.

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I mean, for heaven's sakes,
everything's AI, but it looked

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real.
And I thought, I don't

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understand how that worked.
I didn't look into it at all,

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but I thought, well, maybe I
just need to, you know, peel my

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skin off, which I don't think is
really a great strategy.

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All right, well, cool, tattoo
away.

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I never thought it'd be the
tattoo grandma, but apparently

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that's me these days.
I did not either.

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I thought, I thought, well, I
thought I'd never get tattoos.

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One time I was offered to be
paid $250 plus my tattoo paid

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for and I was like, yeah, no
thanks.

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And oh, now you wish.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Now I wish.
Like, OK, I'll do it.

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You can pay me.
And even just having a tattoo

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for free would be fun.
Yeah.

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No kidding.
For sure.

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Yeah.
My my big one on my chest was

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free because it was for covering
scars from my cancer experience.

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And so there were practitioners
of a variety of type.

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I was one of them as a massage
therapist that offer free tattoo

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or excuse me no ioffer free
massage people.

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Like I'll give you tattoo, it
might suck, it might hurt more

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than it should.
Right, I can draw a stick

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figure.
What more do you want?

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I actually as a massage
practitioner would give that.

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But these tattoo artists donate
their time for cancer survivors,

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for people with scars even this
group covered people who did

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self harm scars and wanted them
covered for free.

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So people would donate to the
cause and the money would be

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used.
The artists would volunteer

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their time.
The money would just go to

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supplies for massage.
If I had done a bunch, I

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probably could have gotten some
money for more massage, lotion

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or whatever.
But I did only did a few because

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that's just all that they needed
for when I was involved.

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So anyway, good, good times.
So today I have a story that has

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always been something I've
considered.

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It's it's a fascinating story to
me and has a lot to do with end

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of life decisions.
The case today is about Terry

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Chavo and my sources are a Time
magazine article, Terry Chavo

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impact on right to die movement,
Terry Chavo case.

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Just generally there were a lot
of sources.

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One was Wikipedia, and I really
take Wikipedia a little bit of a

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grain of salt, but they had a
really good article on it and it

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was very clear.
But this is a case that has been

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around for a long time and has a
lot of information about it.

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Another source was the Death in
the family reflections on the

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Terry Chavo case, and that was
also New York Times and it was a

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book created by New York Times.
And then the Mayo Clinic had

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some different writings on it
was called Mayo Clinic

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Proceedings and it had a variety
of articles about it stating the

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title was Terry Chavo Saga, The
Making of a Tragedy, Tragedy and

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Lessons Learned.
To talk a little bit about

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Terry, I'll just call her by her
first name from now on.

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But to talk about Terry, she was
born in 1963 in Pennsylvania.

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And then her date of death, I
almost said final date of death,

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and that's kind of true, but her
date of death was March 31st,

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2005.
She was 41 years old and she was

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in Florida.
She was married to Michael Chavo

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and they got married in 1984.
That is relevant.

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The fact that she was married to
a lot of this stuff went along

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this case, the Terry Chavo case
was in and out of court for from

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1998 to 2005 because we'll go
into more detail this.

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But because of what her husband
said and what her parents said,

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which put things in a bad a bad
place because they said

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different things.
Her husband had we'll find said

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what what Terry had told people
about her end of life decisions.

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But that was that was fought by
her parents.

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So anyway, the way this story
worked is that on February 25th

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in 1990, Teri Shava was 26, She
suffered A cardiac arrest which

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was caused by hypokalemia
induced by an eating disorder.

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She had had bulimia for a long
time because of the hypokalemia

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and which is low potassium.
So she had an anoxic event which

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meant no blood supply or oxygen
supply to the brain.

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And then she, several months
after the incident, had a CT

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scan which revealed severe
atrophy of both hemispheres of

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the brain.
And what was really interesting

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is I saw later a picture of her
brain and part of it looked like

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it was liquid.
It wasn't even brain matter

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anymore.
A few months afterwards, she

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stabilized into a persistent
vegetative state.

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And that if a person hasn't seen
it before, can look a little bit

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like consciousness, but it's the
state of eyes open

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unconsciousness.
People in a persistent

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vegetative state still have
sleep and wake cycles.

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They look to be awake and
conscious, but they really seem

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to be through testing, unaware
of their environment and the

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things that happen around them.
Which I think makes this case

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even a little bit more confusing
because it wasn't just totally

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clear.
She wasn't just out, you know,

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like no response, nothing.
She, she was, her eyes were

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open.
There were times that we'll talk

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about that.
She looked like she could sort

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of eat, but she wasn't eating in
a conscious way.

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And that's still one of the
things that made it difficult.

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They did some standard care for
her, but even though she had a

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very poor prognosis for getting
any better, they did

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experimentation therapies for
three years and there were no

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effects.
She never got any benefit from

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any of the therapies that they
did.

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And like I say, all of them were
therapeutic.

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I mean, excuse me, experimental.
And her husband said, you know,

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here she's been three years.
She's being kept alive and she

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doesn't want that.
It's showing that she's not

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getting better.
And she had said statements

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several times saying, quote, I
don't want to be kept alive on a

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machine.
And they had talked about it

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before.
And he said that that is what

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she said.
And he really didn't want her to

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have any more life sustaining
measures because she just

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didn't.
She had never wanted that.

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But her parents, Bob and Mary
Schindler, never believed that

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she was really in a persistent
vegetative state.

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And I think part of the reason
is because she had her eyes

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open.
She had some signs that kind of

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looked like she was doing doing
stuff, but she wasn't.

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There have been a couple of
times I've been on in on final

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neurological exams and they can
look like they're doing

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something, but there's still no
great activity.

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Bob and Mary just didn't want
anything to stop.

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They didn't want her to die.
And they were in litigation for

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seven years that generated 30
legal opinions.

228
00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:33,240
Ultimately, they all supported
Mike Chavo for his decision on

229
00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,200
her behalf.
So that's kind of the big

230
00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,160
picture of it all.
One of the things that was

231
00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:44,360
difficult is that when she was
found initially, she probably

232
00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:48,480
had been anoxic for some large
period of time.

233
00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,920
It could have been up to hours
off and on to some level before

234
00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,360
she was found.
In this case, unfortunately,

235
00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:57,680
probably the fact that she was
resuscitated was not a good

236
00:11:57,680 --> 00:11:59,280
thing.
And that's another whole

237
00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:02,480
question is when?
When is it not a good thing?

238
00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:04,760
It's hard to tell.
We just, there's so many

239
00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,920
variables and it comes to a
point we'll talk about a little

240
00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:11,560
bit later on what we feel about
this and how how these decisions

241
00:12:11,560 --> 00:12:16,040
should be made.
In 1999, the first time Michael

242
00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,760
petitioned the court of Florida
removed her feeding tube along

243
00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:23,680
Florida law had a ruling, A
ruling that they could remove a

244
00:12:23,680 --> 00:12:26,920
fooding tube if a person was in
persistent vegetative state.

245
00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:30,320
And now she had been in this
condition for quite a while.

246
00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:33,880
Her parents opposed, like I
said, the court determined at

247
00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:38,040
that first time that Terry would
not have wished to continue life

248
00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,400
prolonging measures.
So this ruling was made in

249
00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,880
February and in April her
feeding tube was removed for the

250
00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,320
first time because her parents
were pushing back.

251
00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:49,280
It was reinserted several days
later.

252
00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,680
So she had it removed and
several days later, which to me

253
00:12:52,680 --> 00:12:55,880
is the beginning of her
suffering, if it had, she hadn't

254
00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:58,560
already had suffering.
And then you may say, well, if

255
00:12:58,560 --> 00:13:01,680
she was vegetative, maybe she
didn't know, but I don't.

256
00:13:01,680 --> 00:13:04,400
It's just the back and forth
that we'll hear about is just so

257
00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:08,040
heartbreaking to me.
And then just again, went back

258
00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,960
and forth and back and forth on
federal cases, federal appeals.

259
00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:14,600
Ultimately, I believe there was
something it had said there were

260
00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:18,240
30 rulings that happened that
went through all of this, was

261
00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:22,760
involved in 14 appeals because
of all of the different things

262
00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:24,920
that Michael said, her parents
said.

263
00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:28,480
And in the meantime, the medical
staff is going, well, what do we

264
00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:30,280
do?
They didn't know anymore.

265
00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:32,160
They didn't know if they were
supposed to to listen to him.

266
00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:33,800
They didn't know if they were
supposed to listen to her

267
00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:36,400
parents thing.
And in the meantime, Terry is

268
00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,480
not getting any better.
What's interesting about this

269
00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:45,360
case is that at a time President
Bush, George Bush was involved

270
00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:50,480
because Florida State governor
was Jeb Bush and then President

271
00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:54,160
George Bush got involved.
Jeb and George both were pushing

272
00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:58,000
for her not to be have her life
ended, right.

273
00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:02,600
And there's some argument that
it was related to voting times.

274
00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:06,040
I didn't look into that a lot to
find out what effect that had.

275
00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:08,680
But there were some things that
looked like it could have

276
00:14:08,680 --> 00:14:11,400
probably been related to
elections.

277
00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:13,280
There were a lot of books that
were written.

278
00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,560
There were a lot of movements
that were started for pro-life

279
00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:18,560
and right to die and disability,
right?

280
00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:21,160
And we'll find out later,
though, that this case, Terry

281
00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:23,880
Chavo, was not the first case
that brought these things to

282
00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,280
light, but it's probably one of
the best known.

283
00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:30,080
I think the cardiac arrest, as
we mentioned, was related to

284
00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:34,240
bulimia would be at the overall
diagnosis probably.

285
00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:37,560
But one of the notes said she
apparently has been trying to

286
00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:39,800
keep her weight down with
dieting by herself, drinking

287
00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,600
liquids most of the time during
the day and drinking about 10 to

288
00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:46,440
15 glasses of iced tea.
That was kind of her thing.

289
00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:51,280
And then she had been admitted
for bulimia and other eating

290
00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:55,120
disorder behavior a few times
through her life already and

291
00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:59,360
again had her potassium level at
the time of admission to the

292
00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:04,800
hospital was a 2 .0 and the
normal range is 3.5 to 5.

293
00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:08,320
So she was just off the chart.
Her other levels were more

294
00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,400
normal.
They said that in the research I

295
00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:14,840
read is that other electrolyte
imbalance would be caused by

296
00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,480
drinking excessive fluids, which
some people will do to sort of

297
00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:20,160
filter everything out really
fast.

298
00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:22,080
She did not appear to have done
that.

299
00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,480
She did appear to have had
sudden abnormal arrhythmia

300
00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:30,040
because of the hypokalemia and
the potassium has such.

301
00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:34,520
A huge, by the way, I the reason
I paused from it is because when

302
00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,440
I was in nursing school, they
taught us hyperkalemia.

303
00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,040
And I think that was, I didn't,
they didn't tell us this, but I

304
00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:43,720
think that was a audio clue to
remember that it was K so

305
00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:47,720
vitamin K, not vitamin K, but
you know, element of K, which is

306
00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:49,680
potassium.
So anyway that I just, I was

307
00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:50,800
thinking about that.
So yeah.

308
00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,160
So I learned hyperkalemia
anyway.

309
00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:55,520
Because we emphasized the K,
Yeah.

310
00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:57,200
And that's how I remember it,
too.

311
00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,200
Is the K always meant well,
Potassium.

312
00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:01,920
That's right.
And some of those clues are

313
00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:04,440
really helpful, but we both
overthought ourselves, I think.

314
00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:09,240
Yeah, exactly.
A doctor Sosa was a board

315
00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:12,400
certified neurologist in St.
Petersburg, FL and he had

316
00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:18,200
previously treated Shavo.
And he said that upon exam that

317
00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:22,560
he and Victor Gambo, which which
was an internist for the family,

318
00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:26,120
made the diagnosis of the
persistent vegetative state

319
00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:29,000
within approximately a year
after a sudden cardiac arrest.

320
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:32,640
So what I find interesting is
that Doctor Sousa had previously

321
00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:37,640
treated Terry, the family doctor
had been treating Terry and both

322
00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:41,920
of them said that she was in the
persistent vegetative state.

323
00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,080
But the family, her parents
still didn't believe it.

324
00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:47,960
And that was really obviously a
problem.

325
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,440
There were some dynamics, of
course, as there always are with

326
00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:52,560
the family.
Terry and her parents seem to

327
00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,840
have a really good relationship.
And when she and Michael got

328
00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:58,960
married, they lived rent free in
their condominium for several

329
00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,160
months.
And so that just talks about the

330
00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:03,320
fact that they were close and
they have been involved.

331
00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,359
But once Michael started saying
this is not what Terry would

332
00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,000
have wanted, their relationship,
which is probably not

333
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:14,040
surprising, did start to fail.
And those rehabilitative efforts

334
00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:18,119
from 1990 to 93 were there in
the middle of all of their

335
00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:20,680
stress and stuff.
One of the things that they they

336
00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:24,359
did for Terry is in 1990, she
went to the University of

337
00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:27,920
California in San Francisco and
they did some experimental nerve

338
00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,040
stimulation.
And actually there's a lot of

339
00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,920
nerve stimulation now going on
for quads and paraplegics having

340
00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:38,280
a lot of good results.
But in this case she was, she

341
00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:42,120
really gained nothing and she
was, they worked with her for

342
00:17:42,120 --> 00:17:46,080
speech and occupational therapy,
which I think the speech therapy

343
00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:48,360
is interesting because she
clearly wasn't speaking.

344
00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:51,920
But maybe then in this case, it
was more for swallowing because

345
00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:55,280
speech therapies does a lot with
swallowing therapy.

346
00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:57,120
Yeah.
And, and that might have been

347
00:17:57,120 --> 00:17:59,320
when they were able to sort of
get her to eat a little bit of

348
00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:02,840
something at that point when
things weren't moving along.

349
00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:08,200
In 199093, Mike said, please do
a do not resuscitate order

350
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,680
because she had gotten a really
severe urinary tract infection

351
00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,360
and she was having a lot of
difficulties and problems.

352
00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:19,360
And he said, we, I really want
the do not resuscitate order for

353
00:18:19,360 --> 00:18:22,000
her at this point.
They put it there, but that's

354
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,200
when some of the things started
happening where the parents then

355
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,520
came in and said, no, we don't
want that back and forth.

356
00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:29,720
And again, the staff is going,
we don't know who we're supposed

357
00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:31,720
to listen to.
And depending on the state,

358
00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,720
depends on who it is too.
Some states it's the parents,

359
00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,520
some states it's the spouse.
I think more often it's the

360
00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:40,640
spouse than the parents, but not
always.

361
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:45,040
And then in 1992, Michael filed
A malpractice suit against the

362
00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:48,800
gynecologist because they have
been trying to get pregnant.

363
00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:52,240
Gynecologist did not talk about
the bulimia as a cause for her

364
00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:54,880
infertility.
They basically just didn't even

365
00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:56,720
talk about it.
And Terry gone to the doctor

366
00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:58,160
because she had stopped
menstruating.

367
00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,440
The doctor never even talked
about her medical history, which

368
00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,360
so apparently he knew, but they
didn't talk about it.

369
00:19:04,360 --> 00:19:07,160
And during the case, one of
Terry's friends testified that

370
00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:12,120
the doctor did know about the
the bulimia and her resulting

371
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:14,520
difficulties.
And Terry had stopped

372
00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,960
menstruating, like I said,
because of bulimia and that that

373
00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:20,120
messes with every single system
in the body.

374
00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,520
Yeah.
Mike had felt that if it had

375
00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:25,760
been addressed, then she
wouldn't have gotten to this

376
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,760
place where she was now a
vegetative state.

377
00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:33,160
Michael did win the case and got
6 point $1,000,000 by the jury

378
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:37,240
was later reduced to 2 million
because at appeal the court said

379
00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:39,560
Terry was partially at fault
though, because she was the one

380
00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:43,320
creating the condition, right?
And after everything, the

381
00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:45,520
attorneys fees, blah, blah,
blah, blah blah.

382
00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:51,440
Michael received 300,000 and
then 750,000 was also awarded to

383
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:53,560
put into the trust fund Terry's
care.

384
00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,600
And one of the things that
started being a difficulty for

385
00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:01,360
Michael and Terry's parents is
that apparently they.

386
00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,560
Demanded that he share the
malpractice money with him with

387
00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:05,760
them.
Oh interesting.

388
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,600
Yeah, that made things stressful
and.

389
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:10,680
And it just kept getting worse
and worse.

390
00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:14,280
We're backtracking a little bit
now, but the first petition that

391
00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:19,240
Mike had made was in June of
1990 because he wanted to be the

392
00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,680
guardian, legal guardian for
Terry It was not disputed by the

393
00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:25,480
parents at the time so they said
yes, you can go ahead and be the

394
00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:27,440
guardian.
Of course, we find out later

395
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:35,240
that that changes in 1998 they
but listeners Crystal has a cat

396
00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,480
all in the all in the.
Up in my business.

397
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:40,440
Going everywhere.
Oh my goodness.

398
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,320
OK.
Sorry, but after things started

399
00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:46,880
getting rough between Michael
and the parents, there was a

400
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:49,920
guardian ad litem that was
assigned.

401
00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,560
And that can be good because it
can take someone who is neutral

402
00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:56,560
and put them in the position of
assisting with decisions that

403
00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:00,640
make neutral sense, not
emotional sense or nonsense.

404
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:04,800
As you, as you the guardian ad
litem really was looking at

405
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,880
stuff a lot and realized that
with the diagnosis and

406
00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,720
everything of persistent
vegetative state, the shava was

407
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,240
legally defined by the florist
statutes to be in that state.

408
00:21:14,360 --> 00:21:18,200
That there was an ability and a
law that said that the feeding

409
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,120
tube and other methods could be
stopped.

410
00:21:20,120 --> 00:21:23,520
However, still, as I say, the
parents have gone back and

411
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,200
forth.
But the biggest problem in this

412
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,880
whole scenario that could have
been really changed is that

413
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,640
Terry had no living will.
And that's why I, I tell

414
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:34,600
everyone I know to get a living
will.

415
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,320
And if all you say is about
whether you want to be

416
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,440
resuscitated and you want to be
in a, if you're in a vegetative

417
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:44,320
state, you want anything
extenuating done to you, those

418
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:46,960
are huge pieces and it takes a
lot of stress off the piece of

419
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,320
people around.
The Guardian of Litem was saying

420
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,880
that he felt that there was some
issues with Michael's

421
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,960
credibility, but they didn't
really say what that was.

422
00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,120
And I don't know if they felt
like he had some sort of

423
00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:04,240
secondary gain potential where
if she dies, then I get the rest

424
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,560
of the 750,000 or something, I
don't know.

425
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:11,280
The parents had said they wanted
Michael to divorce Terry.

426
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:13,560
He said, no, I don't want to do
that.

427
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:18,760
And the parents also said the
Guardian Lion thought that maybe

428
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:20,920
it was because the parents would
have inherited the remainder of

429
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,800
Terry's estate upon her death.
So at a point, it looked like

430
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:27,160
there was some concern about
whether people are making

431
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:28,640
decisions based on getting
money.

432
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:30,880
No idea.
That's speculation by a lot of

433
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:32,360
people.
And obviously I wasn't there and

434
00:22:32,360 --> 00:22:33,880
haven't read enough stuff about
that.

435
00:22:34,120 --> 00:22:37,160
So we're going to move on to the
things that are known.

436
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:41,040
There was a judge, George Greer
was the one who heard most of

437
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:45,120
the things about Terry, about
the appeals and back and forth

438
00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:49,400
and back and forth.
But the first court date was the

439
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:53,480
week of January 24th in 2000.
That was to determine what Terry

440
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:57,400
had wanted, if anyone could tell
what she had wanted regarding

441
00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,880
life prolonging procedure.
Michael was there.

442
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,360
He had an attorney called George
Phalos.

443
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,480
George Phalos had already won a
landmark right to die case

444
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,200
before the Florida Supreme Court
in 1990s.

445
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,360
That probably was a good thing
in Michael's view.

446
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:16,320
And this trial included
testimony from 18 witnesses

447
00:23:16,360 --> 00:23:19,760
relating to her medical
condition at end of life wishes.

448
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:23,400
And Michael, as we know, claimed
that she didn't want to be kept

449
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,120
alive when her chance of
recovery was minuscule.

450
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,720
And her parents claimed she was
about Roman Catholic who would

451
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,880
not wish to violate the church
teachings on euthanasia or

452
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:34,680
refusing nutrition and
hydration.

453
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,640
In this case, the judge had to
listen to those two things,

454
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:41,080
which were obviously very
diverse, and the other

455
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,160
testimonies.
And he issued an order granting

456
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,760
the petition for authorizing to
discontinue life support.

457
00:23:48,120 --> 00:23:51,720
So even after hearing everything
judge said, yeah, discontinue.

458
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,520
It sounds like that's what she
would want because she was in

459
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,120
the persistent vegetative state
and she had made reliable, his

460
00:23:58,120 --> 00:24:01,560
judgment said she had made
reliable oral declarations that

461
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:03,600
she would not have wanted the
feeding tube.

462
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,000
They could go ahead and be
suspended.

463
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,320
Dinner the Catholic Church
Church also back her and say

464
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,440
that removing the feeding tube
was within the the beliefs or

465
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,160
whatever of the Catholic Church.
I did not see anything about

466
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:19,640
that, but it's possible and that
makes sense considering

467
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,480
everything going on.
So that was the first ruling.

468
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,560
And then in March of the same
year, the Schindler's, the

469
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,840
parents filed a motion to permit
assisted feeding of Terry.

470
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,440
Remember, she was really not
able to eat on her own.

471
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,720
But assisted feeding is not
considered a life prolonging

472
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:36,560
procedure under flora.
In a law.

473
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,640
Feeding tube is, but assisted
feeding is not.

474
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,640
They wanted that to happen and
they filed a motion for it.

475
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,640
But clinical records has shown
that Terry was not responsive to

476
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,280
swallowing tests and requiring
feeding tube.

477
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,840
Terry could not safely eat.
Judge gurrilled that she wasn't

478
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,680
capable of orally ingesting
sufficient nutrition and

479
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,680
hydration to sustain life.
So he said no, you can't have

480
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,320
the feeding tube in and she
can't take food from an external

481
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,680
source.
So he upheld the request to take

482
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,400
the feeding tube out.
OK, so this is just remember

483
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,960
this is still in 2000 and.
Phenomenal because 10 years

484
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,920
after her heart attack, like
holy shit this is taking a long

485
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,800
time but I know it takes longer
but jeez Louise.

486
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,800
I know, I know.
And what's interesting to note

487
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,320
at this point is in the medical
examiner when he did the post

488
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:30,360
mortem report was more
definitive and reaffirmed that

489
00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:32,720
she could not have swallowed and
post mortem.

490
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,800
So I think about this, Terry,
they were trying to feed her but

491
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,960
she couldn't swallow, which
seems to me sort of torturous in

492
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,240
itself.
And how that went on.

493
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:44,640
Oh my goodness.
In the meantime, obviously her

494
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,640
feeding tube has to have been in
because she couldn't live all

495
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,240
this time with no feeding tube
and no anything.

496
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:55,280
But again, they challenged the
guardianship of Michael and

497
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,000
suggesting that he was wasting
the assets within the

498
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,320
guardianship account by
transferring Terry to a Hospice

499
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,520
care after she was clear she was
not terminal within Medicare

500
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:09,120
guidelines.
So she's she can't survive

501
00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:11,560
without feeding, but she's not
terminal because she's getting

502
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,960
feedings.
She was still legally married to

503
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,240
Michael.
There was a compounding event,

504
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,840
which is not unreasonable, I
don't think in any way, but he

505
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,200
was in a relationship with a
woman and they had a child

506
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,360
together.
Michael said he chose not to

507
00:26:25,360 --> 00:26:28,320
divorce his wife and relinquish
guardianship because he wanted

508
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,480
to ensure her final wishes.
So he did not divorce her.

509
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,920
Her parents kept saying just
divorce her and basically get

510
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,080
out of our lives.
He said no and the court denied

511
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,400
the motion to remove him as
guardian because there wasn't

512
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,680
sufficient evidence that he was
doing anything wrong.

513
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,400
There wasn't evidence that he
wasn't taking care of her and

514
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,160
all of that.
It said the date the court set,

515
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,640
the date is April 24th, 2001,
and the date which the tube was

516
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:53,960
to be removed.
So they have a date.

517
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:58,120
And then in April of 2001, the
parents filed a motion for

518
00:26:58,120 --> 00:27:01,080
relief from judgement.
Now, citing new evidence of

519
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,920
Shabbos wishes, Judge Greer had
the motion brought to him.

520
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,360
And he said no, it's not.
Not only is it untimely because

521
00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:11,680
we're supposed to discontinue
the feeding tube this month, but

522
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,800
there's no evidence of that.
And so he said, no, you can't.

523
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,120
However, they were given an
opportunity to file a new

524
00:27:19,120 --> 00:27:22,760
motion, but not that motion.
So they kept trying to say the

525
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:24,400
same motion.
So he gave them an option to

526
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:29,120
fire and file another motion.
And then like say on April 24th

527
00:27:29,120 --> 00:27:32,800
in 2001, her speeding tube was
removed for the first time.

528
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:34,920
Emphasis of the first time.
OK, let.

529
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,360
Me just say real quick, this is
this is being recorded.

530
00:27:38,360 --> 00:27:41,880
I do have a living will, but
I'll just for all of posterity,

531
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:47,800
if I'm in a persistent
persistent, please do not do

532
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,200
anything to extend my life.
Pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty

533
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,040
please pretty please, pretty
please do not.

534
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:57,280
I Ditto that.
Today is July 21st, 2025.

535
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,280
That's right.
On the date of recording, Date

536
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,000
of release will be later.
Still valid.

537
00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:08,920
I'm sure that's legal for us.
And so, OK, so the date of April

538
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,560
24th was the date set for in
2001.

539
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,360
And first time it was removed,
as I say, and the parents filed

540
00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:19,600
a civil suit against Michael
alleging perjury and it was sent

541
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,240
to a different court, not judge,
Judge Greer.

542
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:27,600
So Judge Quisada issued an
injunction against the removal

543
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:29,640
of the feeding tube until this
was settled.

544
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:31,960
I think that's kind of hanky
panky because they went to

545
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,040
another judge because they knew
what Greer thought.

546
00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:37,720
They went to another judge and
the judge wouldn't make this

547
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,400
decision immediately because he
had to look at all the stuff.

548
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:44,280
So it got put back in on April
26th, as I mentioned.

549
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,480
So that's almost 5 day.
No, I'm sorry, it's only it's

550
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,640
only two days, but still two
days.

551
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,240
She had no feeding tube and then
she got put back on a feeding

552
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:54,800
tube.
That doesn't seem very nice to

553
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,760
me.
Michael appealed and they

554
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:03,440
reversed Judge Casada's order
and Michael filed a motion to

555
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:07,280
make him enforce the mandate of
the guardianship court and that

556
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,320
was that the feeding tube be
removed.

557
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,760
The Second District Court denied
the motion that the feeding tube

558
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:18,600
be removed, so they didn't stay
the course on keeping the the

559
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:22,640
feeding tube out.
It gets very confusing because

560
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,400
one court says this, one court
says that, and that's not that

561
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,120
uncommon.
But still when you've got

562
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,000
somebody's life on the line
here, that seems just cruel and

563
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,800
unusual really to extend things.
But that's if we take the

564
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,080
perspective that that's what she
wanted is to be stopped.

565
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,600
And so from our perspective,
that's cruel and unusual, maybe

566
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,520
from the perspective of someone
like her parents, is it?

567
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,400
That's what she deserves.
She deserves to be kept alive

568
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,800
and all of that.
These three decisions all back

569
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,880
they were published in a single
order at the Court of Appeal

570
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,760
came to be known by the court as
Shavo 2 in this later's rulings,

571
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,360
probably because it was getting
very confusing.

572
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:04,160
Anyways, in August, on August
10th of 2, 2001, Second District

573
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,240
Court of Appeal had Judge Greer
hear a motion from the

574
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,280
Schindler's claiming that new
medical treatment could restore

575
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:14,240
sufficient cognitive ability so
that Terry would herself be able

576
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,640
to decide to continue life
prolonging measures.

577
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:18,080
I'm like, what the heck is that
going to be?

578
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,440
Because three years she had
rehab and it didn't do anything.

579
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,040
But anyway, the court also heard
motions from Michael.

580
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,680
I'm excuse me, the Schindler's
to remove Michael again as the

581
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:32,680
Guardian, and they also wanted
Judge Greer to recuse himself.

582
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,440
Oh, that's convenient.
Right.

583
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,080
So now, because they don't agree
with him, he's got to get out

584
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,640
because he keeps saying the same
thing, which to me, I'm very

585
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,800
proud of Judge Greer because he
did keep saying the same thing.

586
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:45,920
And I don't think it was because
he was being difficult.

587
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,480
I think it's because that's what
the evidence showed and that's

588
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:53,120
what a judge is supposed to do.
And Judge Greer said no, no, you

589
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,040
can't have those motions.
He denied the motions.

590
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,480
Then the Schindler's appealed to
the Court of Appeals.

591
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,800
And then October 7th, 17th and
2001, the Court of Appeals

592
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,480
affirm the denials of the
motions to remove and refuse.

593
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,440
So basically the Court of
Appeals said, no, Judge Greer is

594
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,720
right, you can't have those.
The denials don't happen.

595
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,720
The the motion to remove the
judge isn't going to happen.

596
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,720
Everything's everything's good.
The Court of Appeals did make a

597
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,000
statement here, and this is the
gist of it, is that the Court of

598
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,600
Appeals acknowledge that their
opinion misled the trial court

599
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,960
and they remanded the question
of Terry Shabbos wishes back to

600
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,960
the trial court, which was Judge
Greer and an evidentiary hearing

601
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,600
to be held.
And they said in this Court of

602
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:38,200
Appeals letter that five board
certified neurologists were to

603
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,600
testify.
The Schindler's were able to

604
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,120
choose two of the doctors to
present findings at an

605
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,680
evidentiary hearing while Shavo
could introduce 2 rebuttal

606
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:48,560
experts.
Those are the four.

607
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:50,520
So 2 for the Schindler's, 2 from
Shavo.

608
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,920
And finally, the court would
appoint a new independent

609
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:58,920
physician to evaluate Kelly's,
Kelly's, Terry's condition.

610
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,360
So was the neutral 1.
You know, it's nice.

611
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,040
It would be nice if they were
all neutral, but in that case,

612
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:09,120
they wanted to be sure.
And the biggest question was,

613
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:13,040
would this new therapy help
Terry have any cognitive

614
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,000
function?
So they did the new CT scan,

615
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,760
which is the one I mentioned, is
that it showed severe cerebral

616
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,120
atrophy.
The picture literally, like I

617
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,360
said, looked like she had some
brain matter.

618
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:27,240
They did her pre.
No, I'm sorry.

619
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,760
They did a normal brain under
ACT scan and they did hers and

620
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,640
there was some what I could tell
there was some front, some brain

621
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,960
matter in the frontal cortex
area, but everything else was

622
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:43,400
either gone or look liquefied.
It looked like there was just

623
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:48,240
just not, not right.
Then an EEG showed no measurable

624
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,480
brain activity.
They mentioned the five doctors.

625
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,560
I'm not going to mention that,
but the doctors all examined the

626
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:57,680
record records, brain scans,
videos and Terry herself.

627
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:01,920
And then a few judges, including
Judge Greer, testified that

628
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,800
Terry Chavo was in a persistent
vegetative state.

629
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,520
Now, the judge obviously isn't
going to have a medical opinion,

630
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,920
but he had read the records as
well and everything has really

631
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,400
mentioned that.
So that was three of the

632
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,480
witnesses that were supposed to
testify and said there's she was

633
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,080
a persistent vegetative state or
PVS.

634
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,640
The other two doctors said she
was in minimally conscious state

635
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,840
for six hours of video of Terry,
and they were taped and filed in

636
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,440
the courthouse.
The tape included Sherry with

637
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:36,880
her mother and neurologist
William Hammersprar and the

638
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,800
judge.
Greer looked at it and he said

639
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,480
Terry clearly does not
consistently respond to her

640
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,240
mother.
I mean, she doesn't.

641
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,880
There's no, there's no
consistent video.

642
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,160
And there were video clips that
were given by the Schindler's

643
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,240
that were supposed to support
their case totalling less than 6

644
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:57,440
minutes.
And they released those clips to

645
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:04,080
a public website and hoping to
get some sort of traction on

646
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:09,199
people saying, no, she's alive.
And and yes, I guess she was

647
00:34:09,199 --> 00:34:13,560
alive, but she was vegetative.
So ultimately Judge Greer ruled

648
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:17,480
that she was in Apbs permanent
vegetative state and was beyond

649
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,920
hope of significant improvement.
So this trial thing that they

650
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:26,239
wanted to do, this test run of
stimulation was denied because

651
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,800
it just doesn't doesn't make any
sense.

652
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,840
It's not going to they wanted
the Schindler's wanted it, the

653
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,560
feeding tube removal postponed
for this event to happen.

654
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,280
They said it doesn't, it doesn't
make sense.

655
00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:41,760
And what Judge Greer said is
that it's just it's not going to

656
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,840
make enough difference.
And one of the doctors claimed

657
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,679
positive results in similar
cases using BIOS vasodilation

658
00:34:48,679 --> 00:34:51,719
therapy, but there was no
support of that actually having

659
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,400
really worked and being
successful in any of the

660
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:56,560
literature.
Well, and when you consider that

661
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,920
the brain runs on electrical
activity and the fact that the

662
00:34:59,920 --> 00:35:04,520
EEG showed no activity opening
up the veins, vasodilation is

663
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:08,680
not going to bring back
electrical activity.

664
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:10,440
Right.
I mean, that doesn't even really

665
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:11,760
make sense, right?
What do you?

666
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,280
What are you electrifying?
Water, right?

667
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:15,280
Like what?
Fat.

668
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,600
Maybe there's some fat in there
still going on, but the neurons

669
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,480
that were happening and there
weren't doing enough anyway.

670
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:23,320
This goes back and forth and
back and forth.

671
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:28,000
In 2003, the Schindler's began
to create more publicity for

672
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,880
this, for lobbying their case to
keep their daughter alive.

673
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:35,360
On September 7th of 2003, they
petitioned the court again to

674
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,200
forestall the removal of the
feeding tube in order to provide

675
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,720
for eight weeks therapy.
And there were also 4 affidavits

676
00:35:41,720 --> 00:35:46,440
in there from the family and one
from a doctor Alexander Gaiman

677
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,480
to prolong her life and have
these therapies and the

678
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,560
hearings.
At the hearing, the council,

679
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:56,760
their attorneys read an
additional affidavit for speech

680
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,640
professionals and two nurses.
They had all of that.

681
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:03,880
One, a nurse said she was able
to to feed Terry orally, but

682
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,840
that Michael characterized any
such interaction as therapy and

683
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:12,720
told her not to feed Terry.
Now remember in the post mortem,

684
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:14,880
the doctor said there's no way
she could have swallowed.

685
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,000
Something was in her mouth.
I mean, I guess it's not.

686
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,160
There is some involuntary
swallow response if there's

687
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,120
something in the mouth, but she
wasn't doing it.

688
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:25,800
She wasn't eating.
No way, right?

689
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:27,960
It's not like she had a
hamburger and fries.

690
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,840
But it went back and forth and
you know, there was he said

691
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:32,880
this, she said that that all of
that sort of thing.

692
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:38,080
Ultimately September 17th in
2003, Judge Greer denied the

693
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,160
petition for the 8 weeks more of
therapy.

694
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:46,320
He said in his letter, Judge
Greer said, quote, the petition

695
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,840
is attempt by Mr. and Missus
Schindler to re litigate the

696
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,120
entire case.
It's not even a veiled or

697
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:57,360
disguised attempt.
The exhibits rely upon the by

698
00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,600
them clearly demonstrate this to
be true.

699
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,560
And he said, Judge Greer said
that this is kind of

700
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,080
interesting.
Judge Greer, it says here, Judge

701
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,360
Greer wrote that they were
incredible, to say the least.

702
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:13,280
The nurse who said that Terry
wouldn't eat heard the details

703
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,760
amount to a 15 month cover up
from April 1995 through July

704
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:22,000
1996, which includes the staff
of Palm Garden of Largo

705
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:25,240
Convalescence Center and some
other people.

706
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:29,080
Mr. and Mr. Schindler that they
were just throwing allegations

707
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,640
around trying to stop all of
this.

708
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:36,520
He, he listed a lot of people.
That was his basically his final

709
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:40,920
ruling in September of 2003 at
that point and said, yeah, the

710
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:45,720
feeding tube gets come out.
So on October 15th of 2003, her

711
00:37:45,720 --> 00:37:49,800
feeding tube was removed.
At that point, all of the repeal

712
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,120
appeals that could happen were
exhausted.

713
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,760
And the state Representative
Frank Atkinson in Florida

714
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:59,920
legislature passed Terry's law
in an emergency session, giving

715
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,240
Governor Jeb Bush the authority
to intervene on the case.

716
00:38:03,240 --> 00:38:07,960
Governor Yes.
So her feeding tube was removed

717
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:12,320
October 15th, 2003.
Governor Bush immediately

718
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:16,080
ordered the feeding tube to be
reinserted and he sent the

719
00:38:16,240 --> 00:38:19,640
Florida Department of Law
Enforcement to remove Michael

720
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,080
Chavo from the hospital.
And.

721
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,960
Politicians practicing medicine
and sarcasm.

722
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,160
Right.
And then Terry was then taken to

723
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,880
Morton Plant Rehabilitation
Hospital in Clearwater, FL and

724
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:36,840
her tube, her feeding tube was
surgically reinserted and then

725
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,800
she was returned to Hospice.
And I don't understand that

726
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,120
because she was had been taken
off the Hospice, then she had a

727
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:43,960
feeding tube and was returned to
Hospice.

728
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,360
Part of the legislation required
another guardian on litem.

729
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:51,240
And this was someone named Jay
Wolfson to quote, deduce and

730
00:38:51,240 --> 00:38:54,360
represent the best wishes and
best interests of Cherry Shavo

731
00:38:54,720 --> 00:38:56,440
and then report them to Governor
Bush.

732
00:38:57,240 --> 00:38:58,480
Oh, brother.
Yeah.

733
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:03,400
So crony put in place to do
Governor Bush's bidding.

734
00:39:04,240 --> 00:39:06,040
Yeah.
The good news is that this

735
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,600
report did not change Michael's
rollers or legal guardian and

736
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:12,840
did not otherwise obstruct him.
Legally it is.

737
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,760
However, it's just so hard
because Michael obviously

738
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,240
opposed the governor's
intervention in the case

739
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,840
because, First off, what the
heck?

740
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:25,000
I mean, governor probably
doesn't be belong in this case

741
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:28,120
and it's been ruled on by a
whole variety of courts.

742
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:34,000
The ACLU assisted Michael in
part of this trial because they

743
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:38,600
felt like it was wrong too.
And then Terry's parents had

744
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,720
gotten had attempted to
intervene and participate in the

745
00:39:41,720 --> 00:39:44,480
Terry's law case.
But they actually the good news

746
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,200
on this is they were denied by
the judge to be able to

747
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,680
participate in the case at all
in Terry's law goes back and

748
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:52,480
forth.
Some more stuff happened.

749
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:55,560
Several judges said no, you
can't intervene to the

750
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:59,080
Schindler's.
They tried to get appeals based

751
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,960
on some representation by the
American Center for Law and

752
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,360
Justice.
Finally, on May 5th, 1004,

753
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,680
Teach, Baird said.
This Terry's Law is

754
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:13,480
unconstitutional, and he struck
it down so right, Like, OK,

755
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:15,000
great.
Jocking.

756
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,400
I know.
And then Bush appealed this

757
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:19,400
order to the second quarter of
District appeal.

758
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:23,560
But on May 12th, 2004, the court
issued an order relinquishing

759
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:25,400
case.
This is the quote order

760
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,720
relinquishing case for final
judgement and order to show

761
00:40:28,720 --> 00:40:32,960
cause why this proceeding should
not be certified to the Supreme

762
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:34,840
Court is requiring immediate
resolution.

763
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,600
They wanted it to go to the
Supreme Court because the

764
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:41,720
Supreme Court invoked the
jurisdiction and I'm not totally

765
00:40:41,720 --> 00:40:45,320
sure what that means, but the
the Supreme Court over the law

766
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:50,920
is unconstitutional.
And so Theresa law it held it

767
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:54,600
got the feeding tube reinserted.
But Florida Supreme Court that

768
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:58,440
that's not right.
And so the Florida Supreme Court

769
00:40:58,720 --> 00:41:04,680
spleen tube could happen or
could happen and things can just

770
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:09,520
tie up at that point.
So on February 23rd, 2005, so

771
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:11,840
here she is.
How many eight years out of her

772
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:15,680
accident or her cardiac arrest
and now they want to do some

773
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:19,200
stimulation to see if she can
swallow and then get this.

774
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:23,280
Though the motion company by 33
affidavits from doctors and

775
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,520
specialties, speech language
pathologists, therapists,

776
00:41:26,720 --> 00:41:31,320
neuropsychologists, all urging
that the new tests being

777
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,360
undertaken.
And they still held the

778
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,800
Schindler still held that hope
that Terry might be able to take

779
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:40,080
nourishment orally even though
she hasn't been able to do it in

780
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:43,480
the past.
And, and you know, the

781
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:48,080
perspective of a parent, to not
lose hope is one thing, but to

782
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:51,120
be blind to reality is is
another thing.

783
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:54,640
And.
Carried on for 15 years.

784
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:56,520
I don't think it was 15 years,
was it?

785
00:41:57,440 --> 00:41:59,640
Yeah.
But anyway. 1990 to 2005.

786
00:41:59,720 --> 00:42:02,720
No, that's not she didn't.
She didn't go down in 90, I

787
00:42:02,720 --> 00:42:06,560
don't think.
I thought it was 93 nonetheless,

788
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,280
nonetheless, it was a long time.
You can if you want to look

789
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,600
back, that's fine.
But Judge Greer said no.

790
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,600
He denied the motion and ordered
the removal of nutrition and

791
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:22,640
hydration from from Terry and
the time and date set was 1:00

792
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:27,280
PM on Friday, March 13th, 2005.
The Schindler's tried a few

793
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:29,640
other things but it just it was
over.

794
00:42:29,720 --> 00:42:34,360
Finally her feeding tube was
removed and she was, she was

795
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:36,880
able to to go and it was 15
years.

796
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:41,680
By the way, was it 2005?
Yeah, well, I'm only telling the

797
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,160
story and I forgot the dates.
Thank you.

798
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:50,800
So once she finally got
released, I'm going to say they

799
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:55,280
actually had police there at the
hospital because they were

800
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:57,960
worried that there were going to
be riots and things like that.

801
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:01,240
And there were a few times
throughout all of this that some

802
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:05,440
police presence had to be there
because there were so much

803
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:10,520
agitation, especially back in
2003 when the parents had tried

804
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:15,400
to do publicity stunts, really
as it were, to get more going on

805
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:17,200
it.
People were getting pretty

806
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:19,960
agitated.
And, you know, when we hear

807
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:23,880
things on the news or from
sources that have agendas, which

808
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:26,280
all of us do, I mean, none of us
have no agenda.

809
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,800
But when things are swayed in a
way that it looks like that

810
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,600
she's just being abused and
stuff like that, it, it can get

811
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:34,920
pretty rough.
Fortunately, I, I don't, I

812
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,240
didn't read anything about there
ever being any really big

813
00:43:37,240 --> 00:43:39,720
events, but they were a little
bit worried about it now.

814
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:44,760
After Terry had died, her body
was taken to the medical

815
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,080
examiner.
The autopsy was conducted on

816
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:51,880
April 1st in 2005 revealed
extensive brain damage, which is

817
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:54,880
not surprising at all.
What's interesting is the manner

818
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:58,400
of diverified is undetermined,
probably because there wasn't an

819
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:03,000
active event at that moment.
But in addition to the chief

820
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:07,760
medical examiner was John or
Thor Martin, and he had a

821
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:10,680
consultation with a
neuropathologist, Doctor Nelson.

822
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:13,400
They did specialized cardiac and
genetic examinations.

823
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:17,720
They said that it didn't look
like they're actually been a

824
00:44:17,720 --> 00:44:20,760
heart issue, but they did say
the brain weighed.

825
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:26,120
The brain weighed 21.7 oz, which
is only half the weight expected

826
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:29,560
for a female of her age, height
and weight due to loss of a

827
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:33,760
passive number neurons.
And so yeah, it was half the

828
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:35,960
size, which is what the CT scan
did.

829
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:39,240
The microscopic examination
revealed extensive damage to

830
00:44:39,240 --> 00:44:42,840
nearly all her brain regions.
So, I mean, it was obvious that

831
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:45,320
she was she was brain dead, as
it were.

832
00:44:45,720 --> 00:44:50,000
They said that there the brain
was precisely the type of damage

833
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:52,960
seen in patients who enter
persistent vegetative state

834
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:56,680
following a cardiac arrest.
Now, let me backtrack.

835
00:44:56,720 --> 00:44:59,640
The one there was a doctor that
said there was no cardiac

836
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:01,440
damage.
And I'm sorry, I misstated that

837
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:03,960
just now.
These doctors saw that there

838
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:06,880
was, but there was another
Doctor Who had said that he

839
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:08,600
didn't think there was, and I'm
not.

840
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:09,960
You had.
A freaking heart attack.

841
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:13,280
There's no cardiac damage.
Yeah, I had.

842
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,440
I had misstated that because I
had read it before that he had

843
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:20,560
said that, but that was sort of
a secondary opinion later.

844
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:24,400
And they keep talking about how
much brain functioning was just

845
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:29,800
gone because the so 70% of the
cerebral cortex was gone.

846
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:34,720
And they said there's just no
way there he even with any of

847
00:45:34,720 --> 00:45:38,000
the treatments or anything like
that, there was no way that she

848
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:41,200
could have recovered.
Dr. Thorke Martin said the brain

849
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:44,720
damage was irreversible and no
amount of therapy or treatment,

850
00:45:44,720 --> 00:45:47,040
whatever we generated the
massive loss of neurons.

851
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:48,920
Wait, I'm.
Really curious, is it

852
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:53,640
Throckmorton or Thorkemorton?
It's Thorg Martin.

853
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:55,760
Thorg Martin.
OK, got.

854
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:57,920
It not related to the people we
know.

855
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:02,800
Not related to my relatives, I
guess would be related.

856
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:06,040
To me, right.
So given all of that, for

857
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:10,800
heaven's sakes, it brings up a
lot of issues, least of which is

858
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:13,880
at what point does a person have
a right to die, you know?

859
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:15,520
What?
Well, in my opinion, whenever

860
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:16,760
they want.
But that's me.

861
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:19,240
Right.
And I did some research and

862
00:46:19,240 --> 00:46:22,680
there are a variety of states
that currently have some people

863
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:24,800
call it right to die.
But there is a website that's

864
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:30,920
called Death with Dignity.
And as of July 14th and 2025,

865
00:46:31,240 --> 00:46:36,720
which is, you know, just about
now, it shows to the states that

866
00:46:36,720 --> 00:46:39,640
have where death with dignity is
legal.

867
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:43,200
Now I know you may not be
surprised, but mostly Western

868
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:48,080
states have death dignity things
there.

869
00:46:48,240 --> 00:46:50,680
Or Washington State, where I
live.

870
00:46:50,720 --> 00:46:55,520
Oregon, California, Montana,
Nevada and Arizona are the ones

871
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:57,040
that.
Currently happening Montana is a

872
00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:00,000
very red state.
Yeah, it is I that surprised me

873
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:01,440
too.
Those are the ones that

874
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:04,880
currently have legislation.
There are many other states,

875
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:07,040
probably about half the other
states that are considering

876
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:10,200
death with dignity this year.
And there's some states that

877
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:12,720
have pending elections.
Now, here's the trouble.

878
00:47:12,720 --> 00:47:17,080
About half the other states are
considering death with dignity

879
00:47:17,240 --> 00:47:21,840
this year, but there's some
legislation coming right now

880
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:26,160
that is threatening some of
these death with dignity

881
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:28,800
legislations.
The biggest one under threat

882
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:31,560
right now is 1 in New Jersey.
Now, I didn't go into a lot of

883
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:36,160
detail about why that's where it
is, and there's some things that

884
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:38,200
I can think about, but I won't
talk about that right now

885
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:42,120
because this is not a political
podcast that's right in my

886
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:43,880
state.
I'm very grateful that it is the

887
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:47,200
case.
And as an aside, I have a

888
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:51,360
stepmother who had Lou Gehrig's
disease, and she lived in

889
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:54,200
California.
And fortunately, she had a right

890
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:57,600
to die.
And she didn't want to be in a

891
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:00,040
position where she was on a
ventilator or anything like

892
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:02,440
that, and she wanted to make the
decision.

893
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:05,960
Most states have.
This decision has to be made

894
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,720
while this person is conscious.
I mean they have to pre planned

895
00:48:09,720 --> 00:48:11,280
and living will and that sort of
thing.

896
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:12,840
You can't just suddenly say they
also.

897
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:15,800
Have to be residents.
They have to be established

898
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:18,080
residents in some way.
That is changing.

899
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:22,480
There is legislation right now
in action in a few states that

900
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:24,120
are saying that you don't have
to.

901
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:27,400
Oregon is the biggest one right
now that I saw that you don't

902
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:30,200
have to be a resident of Oregon
to be able to use the right to

903
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:35,200
left or right to die.
But that's pending because there

904
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,680
are some concerns with that too,
because they may not have

905
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:41,240
established care providers that
can testify and blah, blah,

906
00:48:41,240 --> 00:48:43,840
blah, blah, blah.
So it has to, in the way I

907
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:45,480
understand it.
And this is how it was working

908
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:47,680
in California.
I, I haven't looked at it in

909
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:50,680
Washington as much, but in
California, there had to have

910
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:54,800
been at least one doctor saying,
yes, this is terminal, yes, this

911
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:57,240
is the course.
Yes, they're capable of making

912
00:48:57,240 --> 00:48:59,680
this decision.
This is what they've decided.

913
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:03,720
And in some cases, the states
will will allow prescriptions to

914
00:49:03,720 --> 00:49:07,280
be written to be given at the
time the family thinks is

915
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:10,720
appropriate or the person
sometime.

916
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:14,080
But in many states, the person
still has to be conscious enough

917
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:15,560
to be able to take it
themselves.

918
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:17,920
They have to be able to make the
decision.

919
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:20,800
And some states they can be
given medication at a lower

920
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:22,800
level of consciousness.
So it just depends.

921
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:26,240
So whatever state you're in, you
probably would be served to look

922
00:49:26,240 --> 00:49:30,280
to see what your rights are.
But my stepmother was able to

923
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:35,360
have this administered to her by
the Hospice care provider so

924
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:38,160
that she could pass when she was
ready and didn't have to be

925
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:39,440
ventilated.
Thank.

926
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:42,840
God, every one of us knew that's
what she wanted.

927
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:46,800
She had been abundantly clear
and she was abundantly clear

928
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:49,720
because she didn't want anyone
to think that she had been well

929
00:49:49,720 --> 00:49:54,200
killed and and she wanted
everyone to know this was a

930
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:56,360
conscious decision.
She did not allow anyone to be

931
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:59,160
there with her except for her
husband, my biological father.

932
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:01,960
But she, she actually didn't
allow most of us to even see her

933
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:04,800
at that point because she didn't
want to be remembered that way.

934
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:07,080
So, yeah, it was, it was a big
thing.

935
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:09,200
But we were all grateful that
she could go.

936
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:13,200
I know my biological father was
prepared for that as well.

937
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:17,040
He ended up dying for other
reasons and it was much faster

938
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:19,080
than that.
But I know he was prepared.

939
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:22,920
That's, that's the Terry Shavo.
And and there were many, many

940
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:26,600
legislations made based on this
and some other cases.

941
00:50:26,720 --> 00:50:30,720
And we may go into some of the
other, but it was it's always

942
00:50:30,720 --> 00:50:33,080
been important to me because I
think that we all should have a

943
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:36,800
right to die that we agree, have
our living wills honored and

944
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:39,400
that sort of thing.
It's pretty intense case.

945
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:44,520
And there were others that were
really big Landmark and Carrie

946
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:48,920
Anne Quinton Quinlan you've
probably heard and Nancy

947
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:51,520
Crewson.
I had not heard, but those were

948
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:53,640
their Landmark right to die
cases.

949
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:58,040
And again, we may go ahead and
talk about that later, but not

950
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:00,960
in this case because we just it
would take another hour and a

951
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:03,920
half to.
Right, very interesting.

952
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,920
Thank you.
I'd love to hear our listeners

953
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:11,080
comments on this because it's
it's a very thought provoking

954
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:14,400
topic.
Yeah, well, and honestly, me

955
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:15,600
too.
And honestly, it's a little

956
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:18,120
scary to think that I might not,
might not have a choice.

957
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:20,840
I'm again grateful I live in a
state that does.

958
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:21,880
All right.
Well, thanks.

959
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:23,520
We'll talk again soon.
All right.

960
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:25,440
Thank you.
All right, if you've made it

961
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:28,040
this far, clearly you like a
little mayhem with your

962
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:30,120
medicine.
Or you just enjoy hearing us

963
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:31,960
ramble about weird medical
mysteries.

964
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:33,840
Either way, we'd love you for
it.

965
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:36,760
So hit that follow or subscribe
button wherever you're

966
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:38,680
listening.
And toss us a rating or review

967
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:41,720
while you're at it.
Helps other curious weirdos find

968
00:51:41,720 --> 00:51:44,360
the show.
And we know there are a lot of

969
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:46,480
you out there.
Oh so many.

970
00:51:46,720 --> 00:51:48,880
Come join the chaos.
Thanks for listening to

971
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:52,000
Medicine, Mystery, mayhem, and
sometimes Murder.

972
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:55,120
Do you have an idea for an
episode of this podcast?

973
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:58,440
Just want to say hi?
You can get in touch with us at

974
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:06,960
our M4 pod.
That's OURM the #4pod@gmail.com.

975
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:11,480
We read every e-mail and
sometimes we even respond just

976
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:16,080
like real professionals because
we are old friends with new

977
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:19,160
twists and lots of body bags.