Ep. 19: If You Believe in Miracles

0:06 Welcome to M4 Medicine, mystery, mayhem, and sometimes murder. I'm Andrea Marziano and RN with 35 years of experience across various fields. From direct patient care in hospitals to home health, geriatrics, and injury medicine, I face life, death, and everything in between. And I'm Crystal Miller and RN with 13 1/2 years of experience. My work spans home health, Hospice, emergency care, geriatrics, and occupational health. From the chaos of trauma based quiet moments with patients, I've seen stories that defy explanation. We've been friends for over 25 years and as nurses we've shared countless stories that have left us and our families speechless. Now we're bringing those stories and many more to you in medicine, mystery, mayhem, and sometimes.

0:50 Murder. Each week, we'll uncover cases that challenge the boundaries of medicine, sharing the human stories behind the science. From puzzling medical mysteries to shocking real life crimes, we'll bring you stories that'll leave you questioning everything you thought you knew. While we're both experienced nurses, we want to make it clear we're not here to give medical advice. This podcast is about storytelling, education and exploration, not diagnosing or treating medical conditions. This is. Medicine, mystery, mayhem, and sometimes murder. Let's dive in. Hey Crystal, how are you? I'm doing all right. How are you? Well, to be honest, I'm struggling a little. I have a right now. This is probably our most real time recording that we're going to do. And I feel like I feel a little bit hopeless and helpless with what's going on in our States, United States, and the world generally.

1:41 So today I was thinking of ways to come out of spiral, which people say that all the time they were spiraling about something. And I've actually never really understood that until recently because I've been spiraling on some stuff. And as we've talked about several times, this is not a political podcast. There are a lot of things in our environment that I'm really having a hard time with, and some things that I'm feeling more and more for. What I believe in is important, and so I'm doing that in the way that I can. I know that you are too. If anyone has any questions about our personal beliefs, feel free to reach out to us independently. We won't be covering them in this podcast though. Because I have been feeling stressed and upset and everything, I decided to do something that will release in a couple of days.

2:22 That made me feel happier. And it's about mysterious medical recoveries. Awesome, that sounds fun. Yeah, I have a few things and I was a little bit disappointed to see that I searched and searched, but most of the things that they talk about are at least 10 years old, you know, I'll take. Nobody's nobody's recovering anymore, sorry. Apparently. Apparently there's no more miracles anyway. But my sources for today are the University of California Educational System magazine about medical mystery, and it was actually pretty interesting. They had several things. I didn't use any of their articles though, because they didn't name any people. And I like to actually be able to research things. They talked about a patient, this patient that. It's interesting reading though.

3:05 Andthentoday.com talks about mom receives a miracle by hugging her baby. And that one is really interesting, too. That's the one, the first story I'll talk about. And then the bbc.com had several things about mystery of vanishing cancer. Site of HMP Global Learning Network had some information about a mom who survived being 45 minutes with no pulse. There were several things on that one. That's one of the longest story I have. Another one was for ABC News dot, go.com, Health Ruby Repaira. It's just the person who had no pulse for 45 minutes. And ABC News reported on that as well. And mayoclinic.org had some information about this woman that had no pulse for 45 minutes. And we'll find out why Mayo Clinic cared. And those are the areas that I had for research, so I'll just dive right in.

3:56 Sounds good. Yeah. The first story was from 2010, which now seems like a really long time ago, doesn't it? Kidding. Not as long as it seems, and longer than it seems. On the same hand, for sure. But this story is about Kate and David Ogg, and they had premature twins. They're 1 twin. The son, Jamie, was declared dead after being born at 26 weeks. And if yes and his sister was actually born at the same time and they were very small, you know? And I say that even though it's only slightly ironic because they were born at the same time. There are rare occasions where twins will be born differently, especially when they're fraternal like that, because 1 can be born and the other one not at the same time. Not very common, but it can happen. Jamie was declared dead after being born, like I said, at 26 weeks, but he was revived after two hours of skin to skin care on his mother's chest.

4:46 What? Right, so the couple was told there was no hope for this baby, he was just, he was declared dead and the mother there from Australia, which is only partially related because they called us kangaroo care and it's basically what we do, the skin to skin contact, but they call that kangaroo care I. Actually first heard it called Kangaroo Care, for what it's worth. Really, I have never heard about that until this what she did. She said that he was so cold when she was handed him, she just wanted to warm him up. She knew he was dead but just wanted to warm him up so she which? Ironically, she couldn't have if he did, so that's interesting.

5:28 But that was her feeling if she could just warm up. She didn't anticipate what results she had but just felt because she was so cold her motherly and him up and she asked the father David also to do skin skin with him. So they were apparently in her bed next to each other with the baby in between, and they just just couldn't let him go. Yet he miraculously began breathing and showing signs of life. That is wild. I know after that, after about 5 more minutes, he began to move. The baby's doctor told the odds his movements were reflective. Reflective and not a sign of life.

6:08 Oh no. So here they are. He's warming. As we said, if you were really dead, he that couldn't happen. But he was warming and his mother didn't believe it. He she continued to cuddle him and he opened his eyes and then Kate put some breast milk on her finger and he accepted it. He was sucking on her finger. No, she didn't. She put the stuff that comes before breast milk. Colostrum. The name of Colostrum on her finger. That's right, she did and that's right. He was there and just was getting stronger and stronger. It said here that they're finally goodbye turned into a hello. Wow. I know. And Kate said I'd carried him beside me for only six months, not long enough, but I wanted to meet him and hold him and for him to know us.

6:52 And she said they resigned themselves to the fact that they were going to lose him, but they were just trying to make the most out of those last precious moments. Wow. So this experience garnered international media attention because it's like, what? Naturally. I know and it said this was interesting because this statement could go both ways because it dramatically highlighted the benefits of parents holding newborn skin to skin on their bare chests. OK, but yeah, that's good. No? And and they they do say that while they thought he was dead, there are a variety of thoughts about it. 1 is that his heartbeat just was so inconsistent and erratic that he didn't show signs of life right away.

7:38 However, if they had not held him and warmed him up, maybe he really would have just died. Sure. Well, I imagine he this is going to sound cold, and I don't mean it that way, but I imagine he would have been set aside right like. And work on the other twin because he. Worked on the other twin, right? Yeah, stillborn at 26 weeks after this happened. I think that for many of us, we would have been high alert, like, what's happening? Could they die now? What's going on? They did say that they promised themselves they wouldn't drive themselves crazy worrying about other potential problems related to the prematurity. And they decided they would enjoy the babies cross the bridges when they got to them if they came. And if there was a problem, they figured we'd find out about it eventually. Now, that doesn't mean that nothing was checked into. I mean, it's no, I know, but.

8:23 As a mother of preemies, that. Can't even. That's commendable. I can't even imagine I. I. Remember, sorry, go ahead. Oh, I was just going to say I don't think I could have gone there. I think I would have been hysterical. I remember when Kira had to come home on a permanent, not permanent, but a 24 hour pulse ox machine that like would scream bloody murder if her oxygen went down. I barely slept. I remember the whole point. Of the monitor was so I could sleep and yeah, that was not happening because I was I was just saying always anticipating that next time that alarm was going to go off. And of course to me, I was not I was not a nurse then I would had no medical training. And so to me at the time I was like every time that alarm went off it could mean she's dead. And that is true.

9:07 It's unlikely, but it's still because I did not know what I know now. It just I there was, yeah, I can't commend, commend them. Couldn't do it. I don't think I could if she did say during an interview though, that they do think about the fact that they had a brush with death, but they don't let it run their lives. And just as a note, Jamie and his sister Emily were conceived during in in vitro, which is not really relevant to what happened. I mean, it just that's not relevant, but it's just a piece of information. She and her husband had already decided before the twins were born that they wanted to have another child closely related to that time. They wanted about a year in between them when they decided it was time.

9:49 Right? Exactly. I'm like, Nah. But when they decided it was time to do it again, she found out she was already 3 months pregnant. But yeah, which is another story altogether. But I've heard of a lot of people who had been trying, trying, trying, and then they stopped trying and all of a sudden they realized she's pregnant. Because I think some of it has to do with the stress that they've taken off themselves and just say, OK, well. I was a counselor in a fertility group. I basically help people read their basal charts, which I'm that's like charting your period. I'm not going to get on with that or charting your temperature during your period, whatever. Anyway. And I heard that a lot. It was almost like the body, their body didn't know how to get pregnant. And so they would do it through IUI or IVF and then they would, they would have a baby. And then all of a sudden it was like their body was like, oh, that's how we do it.

10:36 And they have more kids on their own. So it seems to be a pretty common phenomenon I guess. Yeah, and we're going to, Yeah. And we're going to talk a little bit about how the body might split a switch to learn how to do. Kate had a few problems with carrying the child or the pregnancies. The one with the twins or the second one? No, the one with the twins. One of the things that I wanted to mention is that Kate had been wanting to try for another child, as I said with IVF, but found out she was pregnant. This pregnancy, the one who was of the baby who was named Charlie, he tried to arrive extremely early at 20 weeks, but made it to term because she got stitches to close her cervix.

11:20 And she also was able to hire someone to assist with the twins while she was on bed rest. Because having twins, being on, yeah, having twins and being on bed rest doesn't always work out that well because it's almost impossible. Yeah, exactly. But one of the things too is that the mom had gestational diabetes while she was pregnant with Charlie. And what's amazing is he weighed more than 10 lbs at birth, which was more four times the combined weight his brother and sister that were born at 26 feet. Yeah, at this time of the article, it was back in 2014 or 10. She was saying that the three babies wore the same size diaper because.

12:00 And Jamie? Excuse me, Charlie could wear Jamie his older brother's clothes at birth and called the youngest one their little sumo because compared to the other two, he was ginormous. Right. And she also said she held Charlie for 3 1/2 hours after the delivery and he was perfectly healthy when he was born. She said she had instructed her doctor just give him to me when he's born. And she said she's more confident in telling medical professionals what she wants and related to their babies. All three children were reported to have developed normally and all three children are now teenagers. Yes, have you? You had your children long enough to go. Did they give you your baby, like, immediately or did they take it?

12:42 And yeah, OK, so I had it over the span of 10 years. And so I experienced it both ways. But I got to tell you, this is just a silly, silly, anecdotal thing that's barely related, but I think it's funny. That's a really bad idea when you have a short umbilical cord. There was one one baby, I can't remember it was to be honest, but they went to put it, put them up on my chest and all of a sudden it was like. Whoops, Baby's back in. Whoopsies. Can you imagine? It goes whoop right back in. That would be quite a thing. Yeah, well, I had both of my children via C-section also back in the day, because it was 89 and 92, that wasn't a thing. They showed me the babies and said bye. Yeah, Sianna was C-section and they, yeah, they showed her to my head. You know, I'm behind the curtain, my head like she is and I'm like my, my blood pressure is like 42 / 10 like. Right, exactly.

13:35 Those are different. Different times and different experiences. One thing that they did mention in this article is to remember that this wasn't a miracle cure. It wouldn't have happened necessarily and other cases not going to happen for everybody, right? And it said, and someone named, she's a nurse researcher and her name is Susan Luddington. And she pioneered kangaroo care in the United States. And she cautions, quote, it does not resurrect the dead. And that's important to remember. And there's one thing too, that I had read the articles I read about her, and it said that some people were really upset because they had lost children and they felt like the message was we didn't let our children enough.

14:18 Ouch. I know. And that would be such a hard thought to have. And that's not at all what they were saying. They were just saying in this case the miracle happened and they did use the miracle word a lot of times through here and medical professionals don't use that word easily. No, they don't. But I thought that was a really sweet story that even though they thought that they were saying goodbye, they ended up. Another thing I was looking at is this was more sort of a generic a few stories because it was part of the University of California articles that didn't name actual names. And I kind of wish it had because as I mentioned before we came on to recording is I hesitate to report things that I can't research myself, but I do believe the University of California has researchers that know what they're doing. We'll go from there.

15:08 This is 1 about cancer. One of the things that I was learning is a few patients have made rare and unexpected recoveries, leaving doctors to scratch their heads. And David Robson, who's been looking into a lot of these, said it's it's very interesting to look at some of these stories. And he said that he thinks some of these cases could provide clues that are vital to tackling cancer and maybe even finding cures. One of the stories that they had, again, these stories were written in 2015. I'm not sure exactly if this was a new experience or not, but it was a case that they said the baffled everyone involved. There was a 74 year old woman who had been troubled by a rash that wouldn't go away.

15:49 She was just trying to deal with it. But by the time she arrived at the hospital, her lower right leg was covered in waxy lumps. They were described as eruptions of angry red and livid purple. They tested the skin and they found out it was carcinoma, a form of skin cancer. As you may know. She was 74 and this was her whole leg was covered. It was spreading at least on the skin. They're not sure where else it would have been, but they decided that radiation wouldn't have been effective because it was her entire leg. They couldn't really remove them because there were so many. So they're talking about amputation. She was reported to say that she wasn't really thinking that was going to be a good idea and also they were concerned that she would not adapt well to a prosthetic limb and they just weren't sure she would survive the surgery.

16:34 Just because she has a bad attitude or what? Well, if they didn't really say why, wonder if there were other health concerns they had him in this scenario. So they were kind of waiting to decide what to do or looking at the options. And then the quote miracle started. They said, OK, this woman was actually in Dublin, but this is part of the University of California University study. And it said she had no treatment at all. But the tumors were shrinking and shriveling before their eyes. Yeah. And they were watching for a few months, and the tumors just disappeared after 20 weeks. The patient was cancer free, 20 weeks, 20 weeks. What? Right.

17:16 And they said there had been no doubt about the diagnosis because a lot of people said, well, maybe you're just wrong about the diagnosis, but they had biopsied them and they did more biopsies and scans and there was nothing on those scans it showed that it was completely gone. She had healed herself somehow. And they said the quote was everyone was thrilled and a bit puzzled. That was kind of an understatement. But what they were saying is that it shows that the possible, it is possible for the body to clear cancer even if it's incredibly rare. So the ability to clear cancer is, you know, restating incredibly rare. Now they were wondering how, of course, because this is a big deal because if they can figure out how, then that would be great. Well, the patient believed it was the hand of God. She had kissed a religious, religious relic just before the healing had set in.

18:06 And OK. But scientists also wondered if there could have been something else. And they didn't want to discount her because they couldn't really explain it. But one of the things they were talking about is something that scientists have discovered with cancer that occasionally there can be what's called spontaneous regression, where cancer will happen and then all of a sudden it just start to disappear. There's one study they talked to or one patient they talked about who was two and had what appeared to be a lethal cancer and it just on his spine and it just went away. And this is similar. But one of the things they say is that they think it's possible that when they do a biopsy or somehow manipulate the cells, that it kind of air quote turns their ability to fight it on.

18:50 Because our bodies, our immune system, every single day is hunting out and destroying cells that are mutated all the time, every day, all of our lives. But occasionally these cells that are killed just on a routine basis are missed and they they managed to sneak away, away really from our immune system and they grow into actual tumors. But every single day our body is fighting to clear things that don't belong in our body. You know, it's encapsulating things, it's shedding things, it's doing, doing its job. But sometimes it doesn't. But usually by the time a person comes to doctors, they've got cancer that is well beyond the initial feel cell, few cells. It's got a lot going on and recovery without intervention is unlikely.

19:37 One of the things that they have found is that one in 100,000 cancer patients are thought to shed the disease without treatment. That's not very many, but still 1 is a lot to me in 100,000 cancer patients. Now, I didn't know where that study came from, where that fact came from, so I don't know how they know, but that's what it was said in this article. So they're back to the theory that the immune system may have been. Subdued for whatever reason and then these biopsies or the kind of air quote, shaking up of the immune system may trigger it to turn back on. One of the things that this article noticed noted, excuse me, is that while there are tumors that do seem to go away, there does seem to be in this article it said if you leave the patient untreated, they usually die within weeks if not days. And this was by Armin Rashidi at Washington University in Saint Louis.

20:38 But he. Found sorry, sorry if I said your name there, but he found 46 cases in which acute myeloid leukemia regressed of its own accord. I looked into the article where this went. It was an extensive article National Institute of Health Archives, but I I didn't bring any of that back in the main, the main idea is that it regressed this. These cancers regressed of their own accord, but only 8 of avoid relapse in the long term. This doctor said that if you find a random on college and ask if this can happen, this regression, 99% would say no, it makes no sense. However, it is seen occasionally and now one of the things they noted that in the late 19th century, William Bradley Coley was struggling to save a patient who had a large tumor in his neck. They've had five operations for this and it just wasn't going away.

21:28 But he got a nasty skin infection with a scorching fever, and by the time he recovered from this fever, the tumor was gone back to the idea of it triggered his immune system. So they wondered if infecting them, if Coley wondered if he infected people deliberately with bacteria or treated them with toxins, if it would destroy inoperable tumors. Unfortunately, it didn't seem to be the case, but they're still studying it. Actually, this is to me, and I am not an oncologist, so I don't know if it's related, but I'm wondering if that's where some of the stem cell research started as thinking maybe it can bump their systems into recovery.

22:09 But there are some clues that this triggering of the immune system could actually assist. Could infection be the key to stimulating spontaneous remission, just as a general basis? We don't know. But one of the things that other papers have noted is that some of these tumors have vanished after having diphtheria, gonorrhea, hepatitis, influenza, malaria, measles, smallpox and syphilis. Now I don't think I want to have those things. I'm curious if that's untreated, those things like leaving, leaving those to be beat by the immune system. And so it kind of gets caught up in the fray or if it's just because the immune system is ignited, antibiotics or not, it, it gets caught up in that fray, right? Like that's, that's fascinating.

22:57 Lots of lots of studies going on about it and I did not dive into that because I could have been studying that for the next 6 years. But I thought it was an interesting side note. And so it makes you wonder what doesn't kill you can really make you stronger. Right, right, right. I just think that it's so interesting that there is some possibility that just triggering that immune response can clear some things up. Now, are we advocating no treatment to cancer? Absolutely not. We are not. We strongly support early detention. Detention we strongly support or we have no idea.

23:41 What do we support, Crystal? We strongly support. What's it called? Screening strongly, that's what. We do. All right, Andrea, this is what you support. Trust me, we strongly support. Early screening, early detection, and early mitigation. That's correct. Well, listeners, that took like 5 times for us to get through that sentence. I'm not even going to cut all of it out. We'll see. Wow. Anyway, the early detection and treatment is vital, but occasionally people do recover from these things without any clear reason or scientifically supported theories. And the last thing I have is the story that actually had the most information about it for the ones I read.

24:26 This is about a Florida mother who survived 45 minutes with no pulse. And this was 2014. The story said from all appearances, Ruby Rapiera Casimiro was dead. I will now call her Ruby because that's a lot of last name. Her heart stopped beating for 45 minutes. The family was told to say goodbye. So here's what was happening. So she had had AC section and they delivered a healthy child. And then shortly thereafter, really, really shortly, she started to develop some, some problems and some other symptoms. So it just, like I said, it just began as a routine C-section and something that hospitals do every day. Doesn't it become sort of routine things that happen all the time?

25:12 But it really, if we think about what is happening there, it really is not any more routine than anything else. But what happened for her is she suffered a severe, rare amniotic fluid embolism. Yeah. And, and I had not actually heard about that. But what happens is the fluid that's. Really. Yeah, I hadn't heard about it. You'd heard about it? Really. Well, you went to school a lot more recently than I have. Some people, that's why. But what actually happens is the fluid surrounding the baby, the amniotic fluid that is supposed to be in the uterus, enters the bloodstream. They're not actually sure exactly why, but it's kind of like a reverse flow, I guess. And. Typically tend to happen in C-section specifically.

25:55 It didn't say that in the information that I saw, but that could make sense, especially because they do think it's related to an inflammatory response and surgery is definitely going to do that. But what happens is this amniotic fluid enters the bloodstream, hogging the heart and creating a vacuum that stops the circulation because it is an embolism. I looked at some of the stuff that they had related to this article and some other articles. One came from the Mayo Clinic and the Mayo Clinic is still saying that they don't really understand them. But what the Mayo Clinic reported is that they think that the Amnot amniotic fluid contains components that cause an inflammatory reaction, as I mentioned, and activates clotting in the mother's lung and blood vessels because part of the system, part of what has to happen when a mother delivers is that bleeding has to stop. So there's some thought that this is part of what happens, that amniotic fluid when it's released later will trigger this response.

26:48 But they're not really sure. But these these embolisms can lead to brand brain damage or even brain death. As we know, it's estimated that amniotic fluid embolisms cause up to 10% of maternal deaths in developing countries. According to Mayo Clinic, death can occur within an hour of the start of symptoms. And partially it's because it's unclear at first what happens. Where this woman was Ruby was, it was Boca Raton. And the hospital spokesman, Thomas Jakarta, says that this problem is normally diagnosed post mortem, so they don't usually diagnose it until the person is dead. OK. So that's not that helpful at that. .1 of the things they said is the team, the delivery team realized right away something was wrong and she lost consciousness.

27:36 Shortly after the birth, she lost consciousness and then just very quickly her heart stopped beating. But before it stopped, it had this weird just sort of really in inefficient beat. But when it stopped, of course, they started resuscitation efforts and they continued until the doctors felt there was no hope left. At that point, as I mentioned earlier, they called in the family and said they didn't think there was any hope. They were getting ready to turn off all supportive care. And the Doctor Who is in charge of the code said just before he turned off any supportive care, she began to have a rhythm, a heart rhythm. And he said to keep it simple. I simply believe it's truly a miracle. Wait a second, if she was on supportive care, then she wasn't pulseless. She.

28:20 Was except for external pulses. So she was. She had none of her own at that point. What they said is that despite having no pulse for 45 minutes, she had no neurological damage, no bruises from the chest compressions, no burn marks from the paddles which is very unusual because used to teach CPR for the Red Cross and one of the things that some of the EM TS would say if there were no broken do. It. Right, Yeah, which, you know, it sounds cold and heartless, but really you have to put a lot of pressure is what the whole. Point of CPR for the record. Ate it, ate it, ate it. Yeah, well. It's nice how it works. I didn't realize what it works, I say. Ruby said she remembered nothing that happened after her daughter was born. She said that her 21 year old niece said that the family members had gathered to say goodbye and the doctors were just about to.

29:13 The niece said the doctors were just about to call the time of death as it had been almost 45 minutes, which is a long, long, long code. But they kept hoping. Santos Denise said my grandmother was crying and begging for God to take her instead of Ruby. So grandma was saying please trade. And then just moments later, Denise said a blip was hurt on the heart monitor. And she said that there were about 15 people in the room working on her and they all started crying and they said they had never seen anything like that. I have to back up a little bit. Runs a code for 45 minutes. Exactly. And why did they keep going? Yeah, because it does not usually happen. But the doctors, it doesn't really say why they decided to keep going because really, they said they kept going until they felt there was no hope left.

30:00 But I'm not sure why they thought there was hope because they said she was pouseless for 45 minutes. So I'm not sure why they kept going. Yeah, it's very unusual. It is very unusual, yeah. I would like to note for the record, that's very unusual. Exactly. But it didn't say at any point why they didn't just call it at 10-15 minutes. I mean, they didn't say and. They were, they were teaching hospital, they were rotating students who were doing CP. Who knows, who knows, but for Ruby this was really good. Really good. Good. Yeah. One of the things though that as her heart started beating again, the doctors were warning there is a high likelihood of brain down very high because have been even though CPR was happening as we know the blood isn't flowing like it normally does. It's not doing its full job because it's going just as far as these compressions can go.

30:53 As they're going as far as as strong as the person doing it is. Yeah, exactly. But one of the things Denise said is that her mom said she didn't believe that God does things halfway and wouldn't bring her back to life. You know, whatever we believe about religion or, or or that sort of thing, it what matters is what they believed at the time. And I think that's great. Can we prove it? No. Obviously not. Yeah. But sometimes I think faith of whatever it is, is what kind of holds people together. Sometimes, sure. Hours later, Ruby woke up in the intensive care unit, and they said she began pulling at the tubes in her nose and mouth. And she said this is a quote from her. I kept hearing people talking about whether I was having involuntary movements.

31:37 I noticed all my family was there. I thought I was just waking up after going to sleep. Can you imagine to wake up and go what the heck? A family member showed her a picture taking her with her newborn daughter and she said I don't remember taking that picture and I wasn't looking at the baby in the picture which isn't normal. I feel like she may have, in that picture, noticed that something was weird even though people there did not. And of course, she was looking at it after realizing she had been almost dead. But she said the last memory she had was saying that her nose felt stuffy. And then before that, though, the next, the memory before that was she remembered being wheeled into the recovery room at the C-section. And again, she had asked someone for a tissue because her nose felt stuffy. She said it felt like she had fallen asleep. And she said afterwards about the experience, she said that she felt herself floating along a tunnel, which is actually something that's very common with people with near death experiences.

32:33 And we will have an episode on that somewhere in the future. They often feel like they're in a a tunnel or following a light or something. But she said, and this is another quote, I remember seeing a spiritual being who I believe was my dad. And she said I remember the light behind him and many other spiritual beings. And then she said suddenly a force stopped her. He said she knew she couldn't go any further. She still feels like she was watching herself in a video and the entire experience seems unreal. But when she felt that that she couldn't go any further, that's when she felt like she had come back. And she said that the ordeal was more difficult for husband, mother, sister and other family members because they were going through emotional roller coaster, thinking she was dead and then feeling overjoyed. I know she was hanging out and she said they were feeling this roller coaster of thinking she was dead, overjoyed she was alive, and then fearing that she would have brain damage and then realizing.

33:30 And stuff, right? Exactly. And then to realize she was fine, everyone's just she said it was really a really, really difficult thing for them. She said after her near death experience, the time with her husband and their son and infant daughter was even more precious. And she said now we're savoring the moments and every day as a gift. And that's definitely things that I hear from people who have had near death experiences or read about even people who have had tough experiences. I know for me, after my cancer experience made it much easier to be grateful for everything I had. Now I'm always grateful. Am I always perfect and happy? No. But does it change my perspective on things? And I know in the article I read that she had said to one of the doctors, you don't have to be afraid of dying, which gave me chills because I was like, wow, that's for her to say that. Yeah.

34:20 She just said you don't have to be afraid. Because of her experience. She felt like it wasn't scary anymore. And I have quite a few people who have come close to that or read about it. One of the things that I was reading in some of this information, as a poll in 2010 found that 52% of doctors had witnessed treatment results they considered miraculous or unexplainable by current science. I think there's a lot of times that would 50 percent, 52%. Wow. OK. I didn't see a poll more recently than that. It's interesting to me that people who see life and death situations in the ER and and that sort of thing, there are a lot of times that it can't be explained just going all of them they were OK, but many times that's not true.

35:02 But still there are times that they can't explain it. And one of the things that they think in some cases there's been a misdiagnosis. So maybe the diagnosis they had wasn't correct. And so they're mysterious recovery was actually because maybe they had something different. These cases we talked were actually what they said they were. There was proof that the lady had cancer. There was proof that the baby had not been responding. There was proof that this woman had no pulse for 45 minutes, but some, sometimes it underlie it shows an underlying circumstance or situation that nobody knew anything about. And once they address that, then the person recovered. Now, there were a bunch of different possibilities of that where I was reading about diagnosis that were wrong and so that, yeah, they stopped having what they thought they had, but they never had it in the first place, if that makes sense.

35:51 But yeah, whether you think these things are miracles or a body's amazing recovering ability, these stories were in my heart and gave me hope and a time of what I feel is darkness. Awesome. It reminds me of a story my dad has of when he was on a mission for the Mormon church. He had a an investigator, they call them, who they had been visiting and teaching. And one day they they being my dad and his mission companion, they got a call from the wife of this couple, the wife side. And she was like, you have to come over, you have to come over. You know, I'm just going to make up a name. Jacob is dead. So they rushed to the woman's house and my dad said that he felt like he should pray over this. This guy didn't Mormon lingo give him a priesthood blessing, but it's essentially praying over somebody. And so he did that.

36:43 And he said that within about 3 minutes of closing the prayer, Jacob sat up and said, where's my soup? Wow is. That funny it? Is funny and. Whenever I think about like near death experiences or miracles, things like that, it takes me back to that story. And you know, we could sit here all day arguing what it was, how it, how it happened or whatever. But the point is that these people survived. Now, is it every day? Does every single person survive? Absolutely not. Of course not. But it's these glimmers of hope. I have a friend who has been having a hard time. So she decided in January, every day to do glimmers, something she sees. Actually, I think it's all year she's going to do it now I think about it, something she sees that gives her a glimmer because in darkness, we need just a glimmer sometimes to move forward.

37:35 And she's been noting the things that she sees, everything from a beautiful sunrise to a deer in the field to hearing about things that are in, in many definitions, miraculous. And sometimes I think we just need to focus on these glimmers. At least I know I do. If we can through this podcast and some of the things that we do in our our lives generally offer a glimmer than to me, we've done what we get to do. Thank you, I agree. So thank you. We'll talk again. Soon. All right. Thanks. All right, if you've made it this far, clearly you like a little mayhem with your medicine. Or you just enjoy hearing us ramble about weird medical mysteries. Either way, we'd love you for it. So hit that follow or subscribe button wherever you're listening.

38:17 And toss us a rating or review while you're at it. Helps other curious weirdos find the show. And we know there are a lot of you out there. Oh so many. Come join the chaos. Thanks for listening to Medicine, Mystery, Mayhem, and sometimes Murder. Do you have an idea for an episode of this podcast? Just want to say hi? You can get in touch with us at Power M4 pod. That's OURM thenumberfourpod@gmail.com. We read every e-mail, and sometimes we even respond just like real professionals. Because we are. Old friends with new twists and lots of body bags.