Ep. 5: Imagine There's No... Picture?

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Welcome to M4 Medicine, mystery,
mayhem, and sometimes murder.

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I'm Andrea Marciano and RN with
35 years of experience across

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various fields.
From direct patient care in

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hospitals to home health,
geriatrics, and injury medicine,

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I face life, death, and
everything in between.

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And I'm Crystal Miller and RN
with 13 1/2 years of experience.

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My work spans home health,
Hospice, emergency care,

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geriatrics, and occupational
health.

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From the chaos of trauma based
quiet moments with patients,

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I've seen stories that defy
explanations.

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We've been friends for over 25
years and as nurses we've shared

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countless stories that have left
us and our families speechless.

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Now we're bringing those stories
and many more to you in

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medicine, mystery, mayhem, and
sometimes murder.

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Each week, we'll uncover cases
that challenge the boundaries of

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medicine, sharing the human
stories behind the science.

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From puzzling medical mysteries
to shocking real life crimes,

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we'll bring you stories that'll
leave you questioning everything

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you thought you knew.
While we're both experienced

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nurses, we want to make make it
clear we're not here to give

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medical advice.
This podcast is about

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storytelling, education and
exploration, not diagnosing or

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treating medical conditions.
This is medicine, mystery,

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mayhem and sometimes murder.
Let's dive in.

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Hey Crystal, how are you doing?
I'm doing well.

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How are you?
I'm very well, thank you.

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Good.
I'm glad.

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Anything interesting or
exciting?

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Yeah.
Anything interesting or exciting

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going on in your life?
Zachary, my oldest son, sort of

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technically challenged me and
Odyssey, my second oldest

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daughter technically to play
Minecraft video game and play a

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modded version of it.
That's called all the mod 10.

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And the way that it works is it
has quests in it.

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And there's one, there's a big
ultimate quest, which is to get

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the all the all the mod star.
Is that right?

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Yeah, sorry, honestly, sitting
next to me.

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And so we've been working on it
and Zach was doing it with us

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and he quit.
And so now honestly and I are

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working on it on our own.
And it was his idea in the 1st

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place.
How about that?

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I was going to say he's the one
who invited you.

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And probably some of those
words, probably some of those

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words mean something to people
who are gamers because I don't

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know half of the.
Words you said, but the, the

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thing that is I don't know,
it's, it's frustrating to a

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degree, but also like whatever
is that a lot of the what you

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have to do to get this ultimate
quest completed is like super

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technical and like mechanical
stuff and engineering stuff.

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And I don't mean like you don't
need to have an engineering

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degree like kids can do it if
they figure it out, but it's it

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is it's intense it's intense.
And so we we were kind of

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counting on Zach for those
portions of it because that's

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how his mind works.
And now obviously, well, I guess

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Odyssey is mostly figuring them
out, but I guess I figured out a

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few.
So, but yeah, it's, it's still

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fun.
It's just that's what's going on

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in my life.
I'm just thinking about it, like

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I said, 'cause Odyssey sitting
next to me, still playing.

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Oh, that sounds good.
We've been remodeling our cabin

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for the last year and as you
know, we had a very devastating

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collapse to our garage.
So we had to shift from the

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cabin to the garage and then
we've shifted back to the cabin.

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Max has finished most of the
flooring and we're about ready

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to put in kitchen cabinets,
which means we're nearly

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complete.
Hey, hey, that's exciting.

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I know it is so exciting.
I did tell him though, that the

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new mirrors we put into the
bathrooms I don't like and I

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said why?
What's wrong with them?

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I said, 'cause I can see myself
too well.

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I can see the Gray hair.
I didn't used to be able to see

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it.
I I need I need.

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The hairs.
That's definitely the solution.

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That's right.
What do you have?

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For us today, Crystal.
I'm actually really excited to

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share this because I I've talked
about it briefly in a few of our

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episodes, but I thought I did
would dedicate an episode to it,

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and that is a Fantasia.
If you've been listening to us

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long enough, you know that I
live with a Fantasia, and what

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aphantasia is, is essentially
the lack of a mind's eye.

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So before I get into it, let me
share my sources with you.

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Lives without imagery,
Congenital aphantasia study by

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Doctor Ziman in 2015, and then
the rest I'll put in the show

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notes.
I also do want to point out that

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I in a subreddit dedicated to
aphat, sorry, dedicated to

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aphantasia and people who are
interested in it or who haven't.

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It's just, you know, lots of
conversations around it.

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So I may take some anecdotal
data from that subreddit.

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Nothing that will identify
anybody or break confidentiality

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or anything, but just some of
the things I've observed.

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And then additionally, I thought
I was going to put the rest of

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the show notes, but I do want to
point out that really like two

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articles that I read that were
not scientific studies.

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And one was What it's like to
live with a Fantasia.

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And it was published in The
Guardian in 2024.

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And the other one, the other one
is called What It's Like to be

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Mind Blind.
And it was published in Time

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magazine in 2022.
So I just wanted to point out

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that I used those as well.
And the Time magazine article is

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actually the one where I learned
about a Fantasia exists at all.

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That Time magazine article
opened up this whole new

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viewpoint on life for me, kind
of like set me on a whole, like

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a whole different trajectory.
And not in the sense of like,

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you know, I was going to be a
lawyer and now I'm going to be a

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doctor, nothing like that.
But just like my understanding

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of the world and my experience
of the world has changed so much

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since learning about a Fantasia.
So let me give you a little

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test.
OK, so I want you to close your

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eyes for me.
And now imagine an apple.

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Not the word apple, not the idea
of one.

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The image, it's red skin, the
highlight of light across the

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curve.
Can you see it?

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Yeah, mine was green until you
said red though.

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That's fair.
OK, so some, so the majority of

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people can.
They can make it shimmer, turn

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you?
Probably.

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Yeah.
You made it change from green to

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red, right?
You can see a glint of a knife

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before you cut it.
Others can't.

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When they close their eyes, the
apple disappears.

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Not because they're blind, but
because they've never been able

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to see it in their mind at all.
That's so wild.

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I can't even imagine after we
had talked, I think you and I

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talked about this about a year
and a half ago, that you have a,

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a Fantasia.
And when you told me, I, I

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thought, I can't even imagine
closing my eyes and not having a

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movie going on.
There's always something going

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on in there.
I talk about this so much, but

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kids and my sister are probably
sick of it.

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But I've learned new things
about it all the time because I

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wouldn't say I'm obsessed with
it in the sense that like

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obsession means I don't like,
you know, practice hygiene or do

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my job or eat.
Like I'm not that kind of

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obsessed.
But I'm, it's very interesting

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to me.
And particularly because, you

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know, I'm 49 years old and so
for the last 48 years old, my

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reality, I had no idea that my
reality was any different than

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everybody else's reality in this
sense, right?

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And so, so when you say to me
picture an apple, I, before I

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learned of a Fantasia, I
believed that I was picturing an

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apple, right?
I thought that the mind's eye

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was metaphorical as opposed to
literal, right?

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So, you know, you say picture an
apple, and I'm like, yeah, OK,

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apple got it right.
But really, in my mind, it's

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pitch black, black, black,
black.

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So wait, OK, I still I know
talked about this, but this is

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difficult to comprehend from my
perspective.

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So when your eyes are open, you
see an apple across the room.

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You know that's an apple.
And then you close your eyes and

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you want to see an apple.
The only way you can see it

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again is if you open your eyes.
See it see it yes, but I can

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tell you all about that apple
with my eyes closed I can tell

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you you know I can close I'm
closing my eyes right now I can

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say OK apple it's green it's got
a brown stem if I turn it around

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it's got the little brown parts
that were stuck to the tree

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before we.
It's where the flaming was.

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But thank you.
I'm like, that's heavy, right?

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Could you pick it from the stem?
Yes, the little brown thing's

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where the flower was.
You know, it I, I can see the

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little speckles if it's a Granny
Smith, like I can describe this

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apple.
I can see like even from my

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example, I can see the Sheen of
where the wax is.

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You know, the light is hitting
on the wax or whatever.

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But no, my mind itself is black
black, pitch black, black hole,

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nothing.
But you, when you say you can

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see it, just a second ago you
said you could see it.

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How?
What does that mean to you?

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It means that before a year and
a half ago, I didn't have the

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language to explain what was
really happening, and so for 48

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years I just assumed everybody
saw air quotes that way, that it

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was metaphorical.
So you so you literally see

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nothing in your brain but you
can describe it because you know

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what it looks like.
OK for those of us who do not

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have a Fantasia that could make
sense now.

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Still hard to grasp.
It's true, you know, it's a

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phenomenon that sits at the edge
of neuroscience.

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And not only is it on the edge
of neuroscience, it's like, it

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feels like it's like on the edge
of my soul.

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And from looking, you know, from
reading the subreddit on a

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Fantasia, a lot of people feel
that way.

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And a lot of us are are
discovering this, this

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phenomenon, for lack of a better
word, in adulthood and some in

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late adulthood, right.
And so it's this.

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As a matter of fact, my mom is
76.

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Nope, she's 77 and she just
found out like she said like 6

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months ago, she has a Fantasia
76 years old.

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She had no idea people had real
pictures in their mind.

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Oh my goodness.
And does she think of it because

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you calling her of yours?
Oh, yeah, because I tell

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everybody, all right.
But that's how she discovered

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she had it is because you were
talking about it.

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Yes.
Yes.

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Because I mean, we'll get into
this, but I had read that it

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might be genetic, that it might,
you know, pass down through the

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genes.
And so I wanted to ask everybody

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in my family, like none of my
kids have it, by the way, but my

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sister Shawna has it, my mom has
it, I have it.

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Who knows who else, right?
Oh and I know Paige doesn't have

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it because Shawna was on when I
was on Photoshop and she's like

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wait, so.
Anyway, isn't that wild?

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It's so wild.
It's so wild.

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So.
Is there is there a a male

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versus female difference?
Nothing that's of any

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consequence.
No.

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OK, so, so it's funny because so
you can, I mean, I, we haven't

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even really started what I've,
what I've prepared for this

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episode because there are so
many conclusions and parallels

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and things that you can draw,
right?

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Another example is we, we hear
all the time about counting

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sheep, right?
And I could never understand how

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or why that would put somebody
to sleep because for me, it took

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work to think about what a sheep
looks like and what it would

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look like jumping over a fence.
And then all of a sudden I'm not

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I'm not counting anymore.
Brain powered to also count

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them, right?
And meditation is the same way,

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right?
Picture yourself on a sunny

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beach or whatever.
And I like, OK, I'm on a beach.

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That's the simplest way I can
explain it to you is just like,

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OK, if you say so.
I'm on a beach.

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OK, what's next?
But meditation doesn't really

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work well for me.
Holly Sue, my, my youngest

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sister, she once went on a 10
day silent meditation retreat

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where the whole time you just
have to be silent.

224
00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,200
And I remember thinking there's
no way I could do that.

225
00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:38,400
I'd be bored to death, right?
But you all non event

226
00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:42,600
eventations, you can play movies
and music and all these things

227
00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:44,680
in your head that you can
actually like keep yourself

228
00:12:44,680 --> 00:12:47,040
entertained or busy or whatever,
right?

229
00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:49,560
I can't, I can't do that.
I would, I would go say I would

230
00:12:49,560 --> 00:12:51,600
go crazy.
Wow.

231
00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:56,080
So yeah, I just, it's wow.
And it's kind of like it makes

232
00:12:56,080 --> 00:13:00,160
me think of how people have
conversations going on in their

233
00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,160
minds.
So I have conversations and

234
00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,120
pictures and it's just not quiet
up there.

235
00:13:06,680 --> 00:13:11,120
One of the reasons why I listen
to podcasts so much, because it

236
00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:14,400
can help focus me because that's
part of the ADHD situation.

237
00:13:14,680 --> 00:13:16,720
And that's the thing I was going
to ask you about too.

238
00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:20,640
Are is aphantasia linked to
anything else like that?

239
00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,280
Yeah.
The So aphantasia falls on a

240
00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,720
spectrum, and it's interesting
because the ends of the spectrum

241
00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,760
are actually hyperphantasia and
aphantasia.

242
00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:32,280
I want to back up just a little
bit and and give you a little

243
00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:35,000
bit of history on this though,
because the one of the most

244
00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,600
fascinating things about
aphantasia, besides it the

245
00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:43,800
condition itself is that it was
only rediscovered in 2015.

246
00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,000
So scientists, modern day
scientists have only known about

247
00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:52,160
this since 2015.
And that's when a neurologist

248
00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,560
named Adam Zeeman at the
University of Exeter met a man

249
00:13:55,560 --> 00:13:57,640
who could not picture his late
wife's face.

250
00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:00,560
He remembered her, but he would
ask to imagine her smile.

251
00:14:00,560 --> 00:14:04,360
There was only darkness.
So Zeeman ran the standard test

252
00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:05,480
for a brain injury.
Nothing.

253
00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,240
The man's eyesight was fine.
His memory was fine, but the

254
00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:10,720
images of his mind were gone.
There's actually there's

255
00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:14,080
evidence that this phenomenon
was known about.

256
00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:15,400
I want to make sure I get the
date right.

257
00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:22,040
It is as early as as early as
340 BC.

258
00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,880
There there's writings about
this difference in visual

259
00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:30,240
imagery, but it really just went
away and it didn't get like

260
00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,240
rediscovered, I'll call it,
until 2015.

261
00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:37,520
So we're talking 10 years ago,
this phenomenon became known and

262
00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:42,080
then people, what doctors even
did is he from that one man, he

263
00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:47,000
studied 21 other people that
could reason, plan, remember,

264
00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,360
but not see it in their heads.
And then once that study was

265
00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:53,640
done, the realization just just
that the revelation spread like

266
00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:55,800
wildfire.
People all over the world, you

267
00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:57,720
know, are saying, wait, that's
me.

268
00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:01,160
Like what that?
Is so wild.

269
00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:05,080
Well, it makes me wonder for
sure.

270
00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,560
Two things came to my mind.
First, back in the day when they

271
00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:12,320
were doing the pictographs on
the the walls in the caves.

272
00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:16,120
Does one was one cave person
have a blank wall because he

273
00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:19,240
can't picture anything?
I don't know, maybe.

274
00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:24,080
I was just thinking that and
also that came to my mind.

275
00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:29,440
My partner has what he calls
face blindness, where he cannot

276
00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,920
identify people very well if
he's not with them.

277
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:36,560
So he would, he used to be a
teacher and he would see kids

278
00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:41,160
and when they were in his class
he was good with identifying

279
00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:42,920
them.
But when he saw them out of that

280
00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,360
environment, he would have a
difficulty with it.

281
00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,680
And he also has difficulty with
other people that if he doesn't

282
00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:53,520
know them really well, he has a
hard time picking them out and

283
00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,480
saying, oh, that herald.
But if he knows them really

284
00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:58,680
well, he sees them.
Is that related at all?

285
00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:02,200
Did you see anything about that?
I didn't see anything about

286
00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:04,560
that.
Honestly, it wouldn't surprise

287
00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:05,880
me.
Because it sort of seems like

288
00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:08,200
the same part of the brain
function.

289
00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:11,000
I'll have to ask him.
I'm pretty sure he has dreams

290
00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,600
all the time that he describes,
so he must see something in his

291
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:16,200
brain because he tells me the
detail.

292
00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:22,800
What he says girl, I dream all
the time.

293
00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:24,840
I dream.
And as a matter of fact, I've

294
00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:26,600
seen this also a lot in the
subreddit.

295
00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:29,840
It's the subreddit is
fascinating, by the way.

296
00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,240
There are some kind of mean
people in it that like the

297
00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,240
people will say, I'm trying to
train myself to be able to see

298
00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,120
images and they're like, you
can't train yourself, you're

299
00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,040
whatever.
But I have seen a lot of people

300
00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:46,040
say, you know, why can't I?
I, I myself personally, this is

301
00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:47,360
anecdotal, of course, it's just
me.

302
00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:52,320
If I am in the process of being
between sleep and wake, so

303
00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:56,160
either falling asleep or waking
up, I can hold an image in my

304
00:16:56,160 --> 00:17:00,440
mind for that split moment,
though it's gone as soon as I'm

305
00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,200
well, If I'm asleep, I'm asleep,
but it's gone as soon as I wake

306
00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:03,800
up, right?
Gone.

307
00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:08,720
And I cannot recreate it at all.
So there has to be we do dream,

308
00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:10,520
we do.
So there's something that our

309
00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:12,680
there's somewhere in our brain
that's making images.

310
00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:17,400
It's just not doing it on demand
as I was, as I was looking into

311
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:21,240
this subject, one of the things
I saw was that when they've done

312
00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:25,800
studies, they've done fmris and
an FM MRI is a functional MRI.

313
00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:28,520
So what that means is that
instead of laying down and being

314
00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:32,120
very, very still, you're doing
stuff while the Mr. is, is being

315
00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:35,120
done so that they can see where
your, where your brain lights up

316
00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:37,760
essentially.
And one of the things that they

317
00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:43,880
noticed is that for people with
a Fantasia, they don't, their

318
00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:46,360
brain imagery centre does not
light up when you say, think of

319
00:17:46,360 --> 00:17:49,240
an apple or whatever.
Another thing that I, I'm sorry,

320
00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:51,040
there's a little bit all over
the place, but it's because I

321
00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:56,000
get so excited about this
incredibly mind blowing idea.

322
00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:00,640
But another thing that I just,
that I just found in doing the

323
00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,880
research for this episode is
that people without a Fantasia,

324
00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:09,440
if I say to you imagine a bright
light shining into your eyes,

325
00:18:10,120 --> 00:18:12,880
your pupils will dilate even
though there's no bright light

326
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:17,360
in reality.
So you have a, so you have a

327
00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:21,720
physiological response to what
you're imagining, even though

328
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,520
it's not real.
It's so it's so crazy.

329
00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:28,640
And it's another thing that's
interesting to me is there is a

330
00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:32,000
test that's been used for
decades that's just a, it's a

331
00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,080
questionnaire.
Basically, it's called the VVIQ

332
00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,120
or the vividest visual imagery
questionnaire.

333
00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:41,080
And as 16 questions, you know,
picture sunrise, a friend's

334
00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:43,880
face, a shop, you know, you rate
each on a scale from crystal

335
00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,360
clear to no image at all.
And it, I mean, obviously it's

336
00:18:47,360 --> 00:18:49,840
very subjective.
And I think that, and I know

337
00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:53,840
that, that, that the results of
this test are, are treated

338
00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:57,040
differently now because again,
we have to go all the way back

339
00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:01,480
to the idea of until 2015 when
this was named essentially by

340
00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:03,920
Doctor Zion or Zeman.
I don't know how to say his

341
00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:06,240
name, but I'm saying it like
Simon in German.

342
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:11,840
But anyway, I digress.
You know, they didn't we with a

343
00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:16,080
Fantasia didn't know that our
way was different.

344
00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:20,560
So when you, if I had taken
this, if I had taken this test,

345
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,440
I don't think I would ever say
no image at all before I found

346
00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:26,600
out I had a Fantasia, right?
That would never, I would never

347
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,560
rate it no image at all because
in my mind's eye, Hardy har har,

348
00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:36,640
every time I say it now in my
mind's eye there I'm, I can, I'm

349
00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:39,600
picturing a sunrise, right?
It's got yellow and some purple

350
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,680
and some orange.
And so anyway, so we have to

351
00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:46,680
take those, those subjective
tests now with a little more

352
00:19:47,120 --> 00:19:51,480
grain, a few more grains of salt
because there wasn't this idea

353
00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:53,280
of aphantasia to measure
against.

354
00:19:53,360 --> 00:19:55,240
And again.
Oh, I was just going to say, and

355
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,560
as you mentioned it, like most
things, it's on the spectrum and

356
00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,320
I wonder if there's associating
factor.

357
00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:05,440
So with many things, if you're
tired or hungry or sick or

358
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,480
things like that, it will affect
your ability to do lots of

359
00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,600
things.
So I wonder if there's a way you

360
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,640
say that if you're dreaming and
you have that split second of

361
00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:18,520
imaging, it just sounds like
there's just not that cross

362
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:20,840
input.
So that's the way they describe

363
00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:21,760
it.
Yeah, that's the way they

364
00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:23,640
describe it.
They kind of describe it like

365
00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:26,760
someone's calling but no one's
picking up the phone.

366
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:34,040
So with the with the with the FM
RIS and the the pupils dilating

367
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:38,640
and whatever it is going into a
pinpoint, I guess.

368
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:40,720
Oh, OK.
Constricting.

369
00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:43,120
Yeah.
Constricting or contracting.

370
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,120
They found, you know, that's
where they were able to see that

371
00:20:46,120 --> 00:20:49,640
because the the people in the
study with aphantasia, that

372
00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:51,680
there was no physiological
response.

373
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:53,920
There was no reflex.
Their eyes stayed neutral.

374
00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,480
Right.
And so this was the first

375
00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,240
evidence that it isn't simply a
lack of imagination.

376
00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:01,840
It's a measurable difference in
neural feedback.

377
00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:04,920
So the top down signals that
that normally light up the

378
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,440
visual cortex never never quite
make the trip.

379
00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,080
Yeah.
So there it's estimated that

380
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:15,240
about 4% of of the population of
the world has a Fantasia.

381
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:20,680
So it's a very small minority
speaking on the the

382
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,240
communication between the
frontal lobe where we plan and

383
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,920
the occipital lobe where we see.
It's quieter in those with

384
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:31,800
aphantasia and the most recent
studies that came out of the

385
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:36,000
University of NSW suggest it's a
failure of feedback loops.

386
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,400
Like I said, the top down
traffic from memory and

387
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,240
imagination that recreates
images inside the visual system

388
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:43,920
fails.
So it's not.

389
00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:46,640
So aphantasia isn't damage, it's
disconnection.

390
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:49,760
The hardware works, the signal
just never paints the picture

391
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:52,040
and so.
Well, that's where the one

392
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,840
person, oh, sorry, I was just
going to say the one person who

393
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:59,920
was saying that they can train
if it seems like this is could

394
00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:02,600
be trainable if you work.
On.

395
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,760
Input Now also, you know, I I
always think of things related

396
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:12,360
to stuff like handedness.
So I'm left-handed, but I'm very

397
00:22:12,360 --> 00:22:14,840
ambidextrous because the world
is right-handed.

398
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:17,680
Yep.
So I know that one of the things

399
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:21,040
I actually build those skills in
myself because as a nurse, I've

400
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,360
always thought, oh, if I have a
stroke, at least I'll have

401
00:22:23,360 --> 00:22:25,600
strong brain on both sides of
the hemisphere.

402
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,920
So I mean, that's how we nurses
think, isn't it?

403
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:31,880
It's like, oh, wait, I'm doing
this one.

404
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,840
This helps because if but I
wondered if there's a way that

405
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:40,720
you can develop your your
visualization air quote muscles

406
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:42,040
if you will.
I don't know.

407
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:46,000
That's a great question.
Research published in Cortex and

408
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:50,280
Nature Scientific Reports found
that aphantasics, as they're

409
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,880
often called, are aphantasians.
I've heard of called aphants.

410
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:59,080
You pick, I don't care, but that
they recall fewer visual details

411
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,000
from an autobiographical memory,
but are accurate in facts and

412
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,560
order.
And it's funny that I say that

413
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:09,360
because because often Holly Sue,
who by the way is

414
00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:12,240
hyperphantasic.
So if you say picture an apple,

415
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:17,360
she's like she's, I mean, she'll
give give you down to like the

416
00:23:17,360 --> 00:23:19,320
cellular details.
I mean, that's a little bit of

417
00:23:19,360 --> 00:23:23,640
exaggeration, but like she's
very like hyper fantasic and

418
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:26,320
and.
I think I lend.

419
00:23:26,360 --> 00:23:31,280
I think I lend towards the hyper
versus the A Fantasia because I

420
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,440
can go into all kinds of detail
and a lot of it depends on

421
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,600
whether I care, but that's fair.
But she tells stories all the

422
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,520
time that are out of order and
like, missing details.

423
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:46,200
And you know, it's probably
because she's just picking out

424
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,080
the parts in her head that she
wants to say out loud, right?

425
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:55,440
So let's go back to dreams for
just a second.

426
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,200
Some a fantastic stream
visually, like I do.

427
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,680
Others dream only in sound, only
in touch, only in abstract

428
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,280
motion.
So again, this machinery for

429
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,880
imaging exists, but it's only
engaging when the consciousness

430
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,560
is off and maybe they're not in
the same system.

431
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:12,920
We don't actually know.
That's the other thing is that

432
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,840
right now neuroscience has does
not know if those are the same

433
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:20,000
system, if there if there are
two systems for imagery in our

434
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,800
brains or if you know, we have
one that's yours works better

435
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:24,880
than mine.
You know what I mean?

436
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,080
We don't know.
OK, this is I was going to say,

437
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:30,120
this is where it gets exciting.
It's all exciting to me.

438
00:24:31,120 --> 00:24:33,320
Well, let me just interject here
for a moment.

439
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,560
I believe that this could be one
of the reasons they're finding

440
00:24:37,360 --> 00:24:42,240
that eyewitness testimony and
courts is just bogus because

441
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,600
it's so inconsistent and
unreliable.

442
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:50,080
And I wonder if this a Fantasia
of the spectrum of the ability

443
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:54,080
to see things effects it because
I played this game because this

444
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,400
is the kind of person I am of
matching faces.

445
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:02,680
I found this game online my time
years ago where I would be shown

446
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,200
faces really fast and then I
would have to be able to

447
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,200
identify the person.
And I was very good at it.

448
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,280
And they said every time I did
it, the feedback of the game was

449
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:17,760
you were you have a better
identifying recall for faces

450
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:25,160
than most people do.
So I bring this up because many

451
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,920
people remember very little
correctly.

452
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,520
They don't get the hair color
right, They don't get the eyes,

453
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,600
face shape, things like that.
And I wonder if that's part of

454
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:39,960
this sort of spectrum, if you
will, because if they tie

455
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,480
together at all.
But I don't remember other stuff

456
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,360
very well.
So it's just it's funny to me.

457
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,600
And this is another way to look
at the brain that is such a

458
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,920
mystery because we, as you say,
don't know.

459
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,560
But it just makes me wonder what
part things are connected.

460
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:01,440
Yeah, well, and it's like you
said, mystery.

461
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,520
That's exactly what it is.
And you know, if, if you think

462
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:09,720
about some of your, let's say,
scariest memories or saddest

463
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:14,240
memories, when you look at those
images in your head, that

464
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,520
amplifies your emotion, right?
You pick your loved one,

465
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,040
smiling, your limbic system
response as if they were there.

466
00:26:19,360 --> 00:26:25,480
You remember a day you were
really scared and that your, you

467
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:26,800
know, your body responds to
that.

468
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,880
You know, it's been studied.
There's this 2021 study in

469
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,920
Proceedings of the Royal Society
B that showed that visual

470
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,800
imagery strengthens emotional
response to stories or threats.

471
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,720
So without it, fear and empathy
can feel blunted.

472
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,240
Some aphantasics report less
vivid flashbacks after trauma.

473
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,080
For them, the horrors stay
factual, Others still an aching

474
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,960
distance and positive memories,
like remembering happiness in

475
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,840
grayscale.
I know for me, it's like I can

476
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,200
get scared by a horror movie
very easily.

477
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:58,760
And of course that's set up that
way, right?

478
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:00,680
Jump scares, music, what have
you.

479
00:27:01,360 --> 00:27:06,040
But I can't really, I can't
really like scare myself with a

480
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,920
Horror Story, if you will.
But I don't know how it's to put

481
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:10,360
it but like.
Going to say what you're

482
00:27:10,360 --> 00:27:14,760
describing is part of the horror
is seeing it and if you're

483
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:18,560
describing how you describe you
experience it is that your movie

484
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:20,160
is off.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

485
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,840
My movie's off and I'm trying
and I'm just, I'm trying to say

486
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:25,600
it out loud.
I'm trying to recreate it with

487
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:30,080
words which is a very scary.
No, and, and there's some plus

488
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:31,640
to that.
Sometimes I wish that some of

489
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:33,640
the things that were really
scary or upsetting could just

490
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:35,720
become words to me.
Well, that's right.

491
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,400
And that's the thing.
Studies show that a Fantasix

492
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,560
report less PTSD or less severe
PTSD.

493
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:46,960
And I think that's because they
can't, I they can't recall it.

494
00:27:47,120 --> 00:27:49,120
I mean, in fact, there's no
other way to put it really.

495
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,200
They don't replay the visuals
that most of us do, where we see

496
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,200
every step of the way the entire
time, forever and ever,

497
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:57,680
potentially.
Exactly, exactly.

498
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,880
Another thing that is
fascinating is, you know, a lot

499
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:05,200
of people question well, are
aphantasics just dullards,

500
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:06,480
right?
Are they just not creative?

501
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,440
Are they, are they dumb?
The answer's no.

502
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:11,840
Creativity persists.
There are writers, architects,

503
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,840
mathematicians, artists, many of
them thriving with aphantasia.

504
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,080
You can Google famous people
with aphantasia and you know one

505
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:23,440
of the you know, one of the most
famous people that in my I mean,

506
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,320
I'm sure in my circle anyway,
that has aphantasia major that

507
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,480
just found out just like I did.
Poor guy John Green turtles all

508
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,400
the way down.
Or course history.

509
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,440
Say that tells me that the
people who are successful at

510
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:41,080
those artistic things, to me,
since they can't visualize it in

511
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:45,280
their mind, to me that's more
successful because they're

512
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,440
they're not already having a set
image in their head.

513
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,240
But I'm not sure I'm explaining
that very well, but it seems

514
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,480
pretty amazing to me so.
What artist said in the 2024

515
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,280
interview with the Guardian
Quote I can't see the painting

516
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,200
in my mind.
I just start and find it on the

517
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,400
canvas. close quote again.
I have a Fantasia, but I also

518
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,120
have a creative writing degree,
right?

519
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,320
I have a bachelor's degree in
writing and rhetoric, and I've

520
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:10,160
written a lot of things and
they've come from my

521
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:15,440
imagination.
So it's just it's just crazy.

522
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,400
Like, think about it this way.
I can never picture my mother's

523
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,400
face, right?
If I want to see my mother's

524
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,160
face, I have to get a picture.
I have to FaceTime her or I have

525
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,960
to go to her house, right?
Let's talk a little bit about

526
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:30,720
the rest of the things that are
associated with this.

527
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:37,440
OK, so it turns out my friend
that you can have multi sensory

528
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:44,320
a Fantasia that is where you not
only do not have an inner sorry,

529
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:49,560
a mind's eye or a way to inner
imagery, you also do not have

530
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,160
voices in your head.
Like you don't can't play music

531
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:57,400
in your head.
You can't hear like your brother

532
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,000
saying that one thing he said to
you when you were in

533
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,640
kindergarten, like all of those
things also gone.

534
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,160
There are people.
For you the.

535
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:09,600
Record I yes, I was just going
to say I'm one of those that I

536
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,360
have complete aphantasia.
So if I, if I say to you,

537
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,560
imagine that you just put a
lemon in your mouth and imagine

538
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,080
like the taste and the feel and
all of that sort of thing, odds

539
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:24,360
are you will kind of start to
salivate and kind of feel that

540
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,160
pucker in your mouth, right?
No, not me.

541
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,960
I'm just like, OK, I know what
that's like, but I can't feel

542
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,280
it.
I don't have any, any physical

543
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:37,080
or physiological response to it.
Same with, you know, you talked

544
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:40,000
about having an inner monologue
all the time or even a dialogue.

545
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,080
There's no dialogue in my head.
Now, what's fascinating and

546
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:48,440
which what makes this so hard to
understand and even to explain

547
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,840
is that I do have conversations
with myself in my head.

548
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,240
I just don't hear them.
And so how does that work you

549
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,080
you may ask?
I don't know it just, it's just

550
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,840
how it works.
That's so wild.

551
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:03,920
Huh.
It Yeah.

552
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,560
So I don't, I don't know.
As soon as you said that about

553
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,520
having a lemon in my mouth, my
mouth did start just watering

554
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:15,320
and that is just wow.
When you said you don't hear

555
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,000
voices in your head or you don't
hear your brother or whatever.

556
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:22,400
So if there's a lot of things,
we've had one or two

557
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,800
communication and conversations
between us in our lives.

558
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,560
And when you're not with me and
I think about it, I hear your

559
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:31,280
voice.
You don't hear that.

560
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,480
Like if you thought of something
I said, you would know I said

561
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,480
it, but you don't hear my voice,
correct?

562
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,760
Wow, I can't even imagine.
Well then tell me this.

563
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:46,440
You sing and you know songs you
can hear yourself, right?

564
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,240
But could you not replay that
back in your head if you wanted

565
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:50,440
to?
Do you know what I mean?

566
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,800
Not at all no no that's actually
funny you asked that because I

567
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:57,840
asked in the subreddit with
total a Fantasia why don't I

568
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:03,240
sing off key and because like
even acapella I can sing on key.

569
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,360
And I I got to be honest with
you I don't remember the answer

570
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,560
but basically they were like
it's not related.

571
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,000
Stop trying to relate everything
to a Fantasia.

572
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:16,520
Oh, OK, well I can sing off key
outside of my my body and inside

573
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:20,360
of my body I can say at demand.
So that's pretty amazing.

574
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,200
Hey, hey.
Right.

575
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:27,960
I just, I just can't even
imagine, huh?

576
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,080
Yeah.
So well, so if it's dark, if

577
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,640
it's dark in there, it is.
Is it boring?

578
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:35,840
Is it boring in there?
I don't know.

579
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,240
Because sometimes my chatter
gets so high that I have to when

580
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,480
I'm doing work, like at the job
I used to have.

581
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,080
You're familiar with if I was
building, say, a a deck for

582
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:51,280
education and it had no sound to
it, I'd have to have something

583
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,600
playing in the background.
And I know part of this is ADHD,

584
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:59,880
but in order to focus I have to
have multiple forms of input to

585
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:02,080
quiet the things that are going
on in my head.

586
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,760
OK, so nothing's going on in my
head in that sense.

587
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,600
I get there's nothing to quiet.
I can certainly I don't, I don't

588
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,480
even know how to describe it
because it's just how my brain

589
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:17,400
has always worked, right?
I guess there's no overlap of

590
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:22,480
anything in my head, so I kind
of have to, I kind of have to go

591
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,320
into the Dewey Decimal System
and find the thought that I'm

592
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,440
looking for and then I can bring
it to the forefront.

593
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,600
But again, I don't hear it.
I just retrieve it and analyze

594
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:35,600
it I guess and make it so.
Wow, wow.

595
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,120
I just I just cannot like cannot
comprehend.

596
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,560
Yeah, it's like I said, I on the
flip side, I cannot comprehend

597
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:47,080
the idea of seeing and hearing
and feeling things in your mind.

598
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:52,120
Like I truly, I cannot stress
this I enough.

599
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:56,400
I truly, truly believed all of
this visualization stuff.

600
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:58,840
Was metaphor.
Yeah, I get that.

601
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:00,720
Because why would you think
anything else?

602
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:05,120
Yeah, like, and so sometimes,
not all the time and not nearly

603
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:07,720
as often as I used to, sometimes
I feel like I got ripped off,

604
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:09,000
right?
Like I got the short end of the

605
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,840
stick and I feel like a little
jealous.

606
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,120
But then I hear about things
like overwhelming chatter and

607
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,080
things like that.
Then I'm grateful I don't have

608
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:18,199
that.
I'm grateful I don't have to

609
00:34:18,199 --> 00:34:21,600
relive traumatic experiences
visually, you know, in my head.

610
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:23,760
I can, absolutely.
Relive.

611
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:29,760
I absolutely relive those
experiences just at a moment's

612
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,120
notice or when I don't want it
or whatever.

613
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:34,760
Yeah, yeah.
Well, and The thing is, is it's

614
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:36,280
not to say I don't have any
trauma, right.

615
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,520
Like I do have trauma.
I bad things have happened to me

616
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:42,000
in my life.
I do remember them.

617
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,400
I do not like them.
I didn't like them then, I don't

618
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,800
like them now.
But yeah, there's nothing

619
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,040
there's, I don't do any
reliving.

620
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:53,600
The most reliving of it I can do
is like, yeah, I remember he was

621
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,360
standing there.
He was doing this, He said this

622
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:01,680
and I was, you know, on a quilt.
There you go.

623
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:03,280
That's the memory I.
Mean I can say.

624
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:05,480
More, I was in a cabin.
I guessed that right, but.

625
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:10,960
No, I can remember every single
detail, like about our

626
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,880
granddaughter who who died and I
was doing CBR.

627
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:15,960
I remember everything that was
in the room.

628
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,800
I remember having taken off the
necklace she had on that was not

629
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:21,560
choking her, but I took it off
just in case.

630
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:23,880
I see it on the floor.
I see her clothes.

631
00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:26,720
I see all of the things.
I see the moment that I handed

632
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:32,360
her to the paramedics and all of
that in my brain just whenever

633
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,520
it's not all the time anymore.
I mean, it was initially of

634
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:40,160
course, but but I don't, I can
call up every single detail.

635
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:41,840
I call up the drive to the
hospital.

636
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,520
I can remember hearing the
helicopter landing on the

637
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,600
hospital roof.
I all of that and visualize even

638
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,720
that's what's actually now they
say that I remember hearing the

639
00:35:50,720 --> 00:35:53,520
helicopter, but I could even
visualize it because I knew what

640
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,280
it would look like.
And so I did in my mind, even

641
00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:00,320
though I didn't see that actual
helicopter, I've seen those.

642
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,200
So I can envision it landing.
I can hear the chopper blade

643
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,080
slow.
And I could, you know, all of

644
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,200
those things, Which is kind of
interesting that even though I

645
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,280
didn't see that in that moment,
I could visualize it because I

646
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,720
have seen it.
But it was also a whole picture

647
00:36:14,720 --> 00:36:17,440
I was creating, yeah.
Yeah, it's crazy.

648
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:19,960
I mean that I use that
metaphorically.

649
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,360
That's right.
Well, so with people who have

650
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,200
discovered that they have a
Camtasia, First off, you said

651
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,200
there was somewhat like 4% of
the world that has it.

652
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,680
I feel like this is likely to be
something like autism in the

653
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,040
spectrum.
Is that because more people are

654
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:39,440
hearing about it?
The numbers will go up because

655
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:41,560
people are becoming aware,
right?

656
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:46,520
Because if you didn't know until
you were 49 or 48.

657
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:49,800
This.
This was even a thing.

658
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,200
It never occurred to you.
If someone said do you have any

659
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,080
Fantasia and they explained it
and like if they didn't explain

660
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,080
in a lot of detail, you'd
probably say no.

661
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:00,920
Or even if you didn't realize
that they were not metaphorical

662
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,520
images, then you still, as you
said, might not have put

663
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,360
yourself on that list.
And I'm really interested to see

664
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:12,560
what the numbers will look like
in maybe even 10 years when the

665
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:16,720
knowledge of it and maybe the
treatment, they might develop

666
00:37:16,720 --> 00:37:18,240
some treatment if people want
to.

667
00:37:18,240 --> 00:37:20,640
I don't know.
Some of it I'd be happy to have

668
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,000
what you're experiencing, and
others of it I'd be very sad to

669
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,800
miss.
Yeah, yeah, that's kind of what

670
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:27,880
I was saying when I sometimes
feel jealous, right?

671
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:30,560
Like I got ripped off.
But then I also like, I kind of

672
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,800
feel lucky that I don't have all
these other things.

673
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,800
I wanted to bring up another
thing that was another question

674
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:40,880
I asked on the subreddit.
Little bit of back story.

675
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,280
So, you know, there are a lot of
movies that are adaptations of

676
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,000
novels or books, right?
Like that's, that's a known

677
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,920
thing, if that exists.
And one of the things that a lot

678
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,640
of a lot of conversations I've
had with my family and, and then

679
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:59,880
also on, on the subreddit were
when I read a book, I don't,

680
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,360
there's no movie in my head of
the book.

681
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,920
I, I can't explain that to you
because I can see how that

682
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,680
doesn't make sense.
Like how are you even processing

683
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:10,200
the story?
I don't know.

684
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,000
I am, I can tell you lots of
books and lots of plots of books

685
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:14,400
I've read that don't have
movies, right.

686
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,080
Like I am a voracious reader.
I love to read.

687
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:20,760
But one of the things that I
learned about myself is that

688
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:25,640
when there is a book adaptation,
as long as it's close enough to

689
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:30,160
what I think I read in the book,
like those characters become

690
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,560
Canon for me.
So great example is Harry

691
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:36,320
Potter, even though I don't like
JK Rowling for the Harry Potter

692
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,840
series, as far as I'm concerned,
all those actors, they're,

693
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:41,720
they're the characters, that's
what they look like.

694
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:45,080
They look exactly like, you
know, Emma Watson and Daniel

695
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:50,120
Radcliffe and and etcetera.
And so there was a lot of

696
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,720
variety in the subreddit when I
asked about this, though a lot

697
00:38:53,720 --> 00:39:01,360
of people, they do take the time
to kind of sketch in their mind

698
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,160
what a, what a character should
look like.

699
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,080
And so they can see differences
if they don't like the way it's

700
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,360
cast or whatever.
And then there are a lot of

701
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,880
people who don't care either
way, just they, they never even

702
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:14,560
think about what the characters
look like.

703
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,080
I mean, obviously we remember
differing things.

704
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,720
I don't even know how, like I'm
thinking about, for example,

705
00:39:19,720 --> 00:39:22,920
just this is the one I'm
thinking about for no good

706
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,040
reason.
Like the Count of Monte Cristo,

707
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:26,280
right?
Count of Monte Cristo.

708
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,440
Cool, great book, love it.
What does the Count of Monte

709
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,040
Cristo look like?
Dude?

710
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,520
Probably longish hair maybe, and
some old timey clothes.

711
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:37,280
All right, there's The Count of
Monte Cristo.

712
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:44,840
I picture Dracula and Rangs,
which she didn't have, but

713
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:46,880
still, that's kind of what comes
to my mind.

714
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:50,160
So when you're trying to
visualize characters in a book

715
00:39:50,240 --> 00:39:56,320
and you say you can't, I do.
And when Tom Cruise was put in

716
00:39:56,320 --> 00:40:00,160
as the actor to portray Jack
Reacher in the Reacher novels,

717
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:05,240
and Jack Reacher was this big,
burly, really tough, 6 foot two

718
00:40:05,240 --> 00:40:09,240
guy and everything else, and
they put Tom Cruise into it, I

719
00:40:09,240 --> 00:40:12,160
couldn't watch the show.
Because that wasn't the right

720
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:17,000
character because I had a fully
different vision of who he was.

721
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,400
And they took Tom Cruise out of
the role, which I imagine was

722
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:23,400
from feedback, like what I'm
saying, and have a different

723
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,680
person in it who matches a lot
better and I could watch it.

724
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:31,320
Do you know what I mean?
It matters to me that my I can

725
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:35,720
understand if my vision of
something was wrong, but when

726
00:40:35,720 --> 00:40:39,680
they so clearly described the
character and the person they

727
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,960
put into the character was
absolutely 100% not that, it

728
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,520
didn't work for me.
You couldn't have a 7 foot tall

729
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,240
Hobbit, right?
Like obviously I'm going to

730
00:40:48,240 --> 00:40:51,680
watch that and be like, I don't
think so, right.

731
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:56,360
But again, I was trying to come
up with an example of where

732
00:40:56,360 --> 00:41:01,280
there are two characters that
are similar and and one of my

733
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,520
favorite books of all time is
the myths of Avalon.

734
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:06,200
There's a movie adaptation of
that.

735
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:10,120
And I mean, I'm fine with the
characters fine, sure, whatever.

736
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:16,440
But when I'm reading the book 1
might ask how do I tell, for

737
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:21,400
example E Grain or Morgain apart
right?

738
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:26,720
How do I know in my mind who's
who or I don't?

739
00:41:26,720 --> 00:41:29,240
I can't answer that other than I
just do.

740
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,880
Well, and it's funny too,
because they also have voices,

741
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:35,600
right?
So different people.

742
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,440
Different characters would have.
Different voices and you can't

743
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:39,920
hear that either.
So yeah, I would.

744
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:43,520
No, I don't know if you would.
Say, yeah, if you were to say

745
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:51,680
describe E grain, I'd be like,
she's a lady and she's a mom and

746
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:55,400
she probably has hair.
And then like, OK, describe

747
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:59,840
Morgane a different lady.
That's funny.

748
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:02,400
You should definitely go into
book descriptions.

749
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:05,040
You should be you should be the
writer for that.

750
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,920
On the Some people were in a
story and they did stuff, yes.

751
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,840
The end.
Yeah, Excellent, excellent.

752
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,160
Wow, That's just so amazing to
me.

753
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:19,000
I know you haven't covered the
layers of this over the last

754
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,360
year or so.
And I'm glad that some of it

755
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,240
doesn't feel like a dip to you
because I remember when you

756
00:42:24,240 --> 00:42:28,320
first found out and you were so
mad that it's not fair.

757
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,520
This isn't right.
How come I and I'm glad that

758
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,080
some of it has been an
adjustment that you've been able

759
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,720
to to take a little bit better
because I would feel completely

760
00:42:37,720 --> 00:42:41,880
ripped off, especially if I were
to lose it now where I've had my

761
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,440
entire life.
And then all of a sudden, if I

762
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:48,600
couldn't see things, which I
imagine when a person may have a

763
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,480
neurological or burn injury, it
makes me think of things like

764
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:56,440
Parkinson's and Alzheimer's and
stuff where maybe that part gets

765
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:57,960
damaged.
But then they also have

766
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:00,280
hallucinations.
They're still seeing stuff.

767
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:03,600
But it's maybe it's not on
demand.

768
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:05,920
If you, if you want to describe
it that way.

769
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,000
The brain is just the most wild
and crazy thing.

770
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,480
And the fact that either anyone,
either, either one of us have

771
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,640
brain activity, not just the two
of us, but generally people.

772
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:19,000
The fact that either of us have
brain activity is shocking.

773
00:43:19,240 --> 00:43:24,280
No, but that our brains do so
much that they do and don't have

774
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:28,680
these disconnects and bigger
ways more often.

775
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,240
And of course they do with brain
injury and illness and disease

776
00:43:32,240 --> 00:43:35,840
and things like that.
But just every day I often will

777
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,520
be walking across the room and
not run into anything and think,

778
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:40,440
wow, my brains really working
well today.

779
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,320
Well, and from from what I
remember and I, I was just

780
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:46,560
looking for it, but I can't find
it.

781
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:50,360
But from what I remember, the
reason that Doctor Ziman was

782
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:53,440
studying this was because he had
a patient, this patient who

783
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:57,400
could not picture his late
wife's face knew onset after a

784
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:01,520
brain surgery.
And so that's that's why this

785
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:05,640
came back into the picture
because somebody did lose their

786
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,360
Fantasia, right?
Their ability to see those

787
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:11,360
visual images and reported it to
their neurologist who then

788
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:15,360
studied it so.
Well, they think that in this

789
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:17,800
case, in his case, he actually
did lose it.

790
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:19,720
Or did he realize he never had
it?

791
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,720
No, he lost it.
And they didn't know how or

792
00:44:22,720 --> 00:44:24,840
where or what was affected.
Correct.

793
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:26,600
Correct.
Well, that's frustrating.

794
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:30,560
So, yeah, So it's not, you know,
some, some speculate it's

795
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:34,840
congenital, some thinks, thinks,
some think it may come after a

796
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,760
trauma or a brain injury.
But there's really, there's

797
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:41,720
really no conclusive evidence at
this moment that points to any

798
00:44:41,720 --> 00:44:44,320
of those one things.
It's very, very thin evidence

799
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:46,720
there.
Nobody has yet proven that

800
00:44:46,720 --> 00:44:48,640
imagery can be trained from
nothing.

801
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:54,200
Although there is a study from
2023 that says hints it's still

802
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,400
not, it's very thin, but hints
that weak imagery might

803
00:44:57,400 --> 00:44:59,320
strengthen with practice or no
feedback.

804
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:02,600
But that means that you had to
start with that weak imagery,

805
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:03,920
right?
Not the blackness that I

806
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:06,320
experienced, but who knows?
You know, where there's always,

807
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:10,560
there's always innovation in
science and, and we just, we

808
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:14,000
learn new things everyday.
So I want to leave you with just

809
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:19,000
one more fun exercise that I
learned about from from God

810
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:21,720
guide that I found on that
subreddit guide to a Fantasia.

811
00:45:21,720 --> 00:45:24,320
I don't know who wrote it, but
you can find it on the a

812
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:29,080
Fantasia subreddit.
So I want you to picture a ball

813
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:32,440
on a table.
Something hits that ball and it

814
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:34,480
rolls off the table.
It just.

815
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:36,120
Rolls.
Yeah, just picture that.

816
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:37,600
You got it.
OK.

817
00:45:37,720 --> 00:45:39,840
Well, yes.
What color is the ball?

818
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:41,960
Yellow.
What color is the table?

819
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:44,960
Brown.
But it didn't just roll, it

820
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:46,360
bounced off.
It was.

821
00:45:46,720 --> 00:45:50,560
OK OK, but answer my questions.
What was the table made of?

822
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,280
Why did the ball move?
Because something hit it.

823
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:57,080
What hit it?
I envisioned like a smaller ball

824
00:45:57,240 --> 00:46:00,360
that like a a golf ball hit a
rubber ball.

825
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:03,480
OK, so see how you have all of
those details.

826
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,800
If you were to ask me those
questions, here's what my

827
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:09,640
answers would be.
Truly, what color was the ball?

828
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:11,320
Ball.
Ball color.

829
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,040
What color was the table?
Table color?

830
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:16,680
What was it made of?
Able material?

831
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:19,240
I don't see a picture.
It's just a ball on the table

832
00:46:19,240 --> 00:46:20,000
that rolled.
Oh my.

833
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:23,800
Goodness, why did it roll?
Yeah, because I think it did,

834
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:27,840
because I totally envisioned
something, like I said, along

835
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,320
the size of a golf ball hitting
a bigger ball because that would

836
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:32,520
make it go.
But because my golf ball was

837
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:35,760
hitting it, it went off to an
angle because the golf ball has

838
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:38,240
a different mass, so it went
kind of bouncing off into a

839
00:46:38,240 --> 00:46:40,680
different direction.
I don't know where the golf ball

840
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:42,760
went.
I didn't see that, but it was.

841
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:45,160
That's so wild.
I mean, I even see the little

842
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:47,920
dimples on the golf ball.
Yeah, Nope.

843
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:49,960
But I like if you like.
Here's the thing.

844
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:52,480
If you said, OK, but but really,
what color was the ball?

845
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:57,000
It, it wasn't like I, I can lie
to you and be like, oh, sure,

846
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,040
OK, OK, it was white.
But no, there's, there's no

847
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:03,560
ball.
There's no like that's, that's,

848
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:07,720
that's how I want to end this.
Like this is how hard it is to

849
00:47:07,720 --> 00:47:12,360
understand because you and I
both definitely just imagined a

850
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:14,160
ball on a table rolling off,
right?

851
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,880
It happened.
We both imagined it, and it was

852
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:19,680
so vastly different how we
imagined it.

853
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:24,800
It's fascinating and frustrating
and weird and wild and cool all

854
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:26,400
at the same time.
Really is.

855
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:27,920
Wow.
Wow.

856
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:33,000
And I, I just, as we've said
before, I'm not seeing all of

857
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,280
that because it just is.
Yeah.

858
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:38,600
Well, get your Fantasia on if
you want.

859
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:41,800
Yeah.
Please let us know if you have

860
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:45,160
any experience with a Fantasia,
whether it's or even

861
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:47,160
hyperphantasia.
I'm fascinated by that as well.

862
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:50,360
Like Zach also has it.
So Holly and Zach, you know, if

863
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:52,800
you ask them to describe
something they're picturing,

864
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:55,120
they'll get into some of the
craziest details.

865
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:58,720
If you look online also that the
Apple test that I opened up

866
00:47:58,720 --> 00:48:00,920
with, it's a very, very basic
test.

867
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:05,600
Obviously it's not like
scientifically sound per SE, but

868
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:08,200
it does show, like you say,
picture an apple and it shows

869
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:12,840
gradients of Asia spectrum of
where people picture an apple a

870
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:15,560
lot.
You know, there's the, the no

871
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:17,000
imagery whatsoever, plain
blackness.

872
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,360
And then there's like sometimes
there's a fuzzy outline, maybe

873
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:22,760
that's grayish or whatever.
It's all the way up, you know,

874
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:27,480
to a full bright red apple and.
So then even the shadow on the

875
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:29,120
table and that sort of thing,
right?

876
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:31,120
Right, exactly.
It's the all these details that

877
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:35,200
are just like hyper, right?
And so, yeah, we'd love to hear

878
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,120
your experiences.
We'd love to hear if you're

879
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:40,880
finding out about it right now.
We'd love to hear your response.

880
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:43,200
If you're finding out about it
right now and it hurts your

881
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:45,000
feelings, I'm sorry.
I understand.

882
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:48,920
I've been there.
So yeah.

883
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:51,280
So that's that's a Fantasia for
you.

884
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:53,240
Thank you very much.
Very interesting.

885
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:55,080
You bet.
Do you have an idea for an

886
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:58,000
episode of this podcast?
Just want to say hi?

887
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:01,360
You can get in touch with us at
our M4 pod.

888
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:11,080
That's OURM the #4pod@gmail.com.
We read every e-mail, and

889
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:14,400
sometimes we even respond just
like real professionals.

890
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:19,280
Because we are old.
Friends with new twists and lots

891
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:20,520
of body bags.