Ep. 20: Remember When

0:06 Welcome to M4 Medicine, mystery, mayhem, and sometimes murder. I'm Andrea Marziano and RN with 35 years of experience across various fields. From direct patient care in hospitals to home health, geriatrics, and injury medicine, I face life, death, and everything in between. And I'm Crystal Miller and RN with 13 1/2 years of experience. My work spans home health, Hospice, emergency care, geriatrics, and occupational health. From the chaos of trauma based quiet moments with patients, I've seen stories that defy explanation. We've been friends for over 25 years and as nurses we've shared countless stories that have left us and our families speechless. Now we're bringing those stories and many more to you in medicine, mystery, mayhem, and sometimes murder.

0:53 Each week, we'll uncover cases that challenge the boundaries of medicine, sharing the human stories behind the science. From puzzling medical mysteries to shocking real life crimes, we'll bring you stories that'll leave you questioning everything you thought you knew. While we're both experienced nurses, we want to make it clear we're not here to give medical advice. This podcast is about storytelling, education and exploration, not diagnosing or treating medical conditions. This is medicine, mystery, mayhem and sometimes murder. Let's dive in. Hey Crystal, how are you? I'm doing very well. How are you? I'm well, thank you. Anything exciting going on for you? Just that it's freezing. Got this winter storm Fern paralyzing the United States and here where I am in Oklahoma we've had a couple days of 8° weather with like a -11 wind chill. It's awful.

1:42 Yeah, that's definitely not totally typical for your area. Although I remember one of the worst storms I ever was a part of was when I was a kid in Oklahoma. I don't remember where but we were suddenly bombarded by an ice storm our I remember my dad driving our big ol Ford Ltd and we suddenly started spinning and he rammed into the back of somebody else's car who was also spinning. I remember that the engine fell out but now being older I don't think that actually happened. I just know that we were down. My brother and sister and I had all hit our heads on the back of the seat because we weren't, I don't know.

2:23 I'm sure we were seat belted because that was dad's rule, but apparently not enough because I just remember having a headache. As I remember the tow truck driver took us home to his house and his wife fed us because it was my mom. Yeah, it was mom and dad and the the three kids. But it was a summer storm, so we didn't have any winter clothes or anything. And we were stuck. And so they took us up to the the shop and that's how I remembered. I could be totally wrong, but I just remember it being really scary, really scary. And please refer back to our False Memory podcast. Episode. Yep. So anyway, what do you have for us today? Well, today I'm going to talk about memories.

3:04 Yeah, Yeah, actually, I am going to talk about memories. I'm going to talk about kids who know things they shouldn't. Wow. So what happens when a young person knows things they shouldn't? Not from school, not from family lore, but something deeper, older. Almost impossible. As nurses, we spend our lives translating human experience into things that make sense clinically. Developmental stages, Memory formation, Trauma responses. Today, we explore real stories and questionable encounters where kids, teens, and prodigies seem to know more than they had any right to know. We'll balance documented history with the kind of eerie questions that make you lean in and ask. Know that? Cool. So history remembers those rare young minds who weren't just smart, they were extraordinary. Scholars call them prodigies, children under the age of 10 performing at the level of expert adults. But what does that look like in reality? Story number one.

3:55 In the early 20th century, William James Seedies became a sensation. I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right, but it's SIDIS. He could read the New York Times before he was 2, Mastered 8 languages by the age of 8, and was admitted to Harvard at age 11. Even I know 11. Think of the 11 year olds you know. I can't even imagine. I don't know if that would have been a plus. He even lectured on 4 dimensional bodies, a concept most adults still struggle with, to the Harvard Mathematical Club. Think about that. By the time many kids today are mastering video game controls, CDs was unpacking advanced geometry knowledge that would astonish adult academics. I never got to that, let alone at 11. I got I'm like me math hard no thank you. That's right, I won't need geometry. What are you talking about, exactly? But beyond raw intelligence, C DS case raises a question. How much historical context did he absorb while mastering languages and abstract math?

5:02 How much did his youthful intellect reinterpret the known past in ways adults couldn't imagine? That's our first glimpse into a mind that seemed to touch the distant edges of understanding much earlier than expected. Consider Christian Heinrich Heineken, called the infant scholar of Lubeck. By age 1, he could read the Pentatock, the first five books of the Hebrew Bible. I just want to remind you that I said by age 1. I know I'm like, wait, what we? Could read the pen to talk, and by age 2 he could recite both the Old and New Testaments in Latin. At three he stood before the King of Denmark and recited the history of Denmark. As adults we I know as adults we learn history through textbooks, lectures, and repetition. The Christian did it before age 4, soaking up centuries of recorded events and religious traditions unconsciously and reciting them as if he'd lived them. What does that say about how the human brain can absorb pattern, narrative, memory and context?

5:59 What does that say about how the human brain can absorb pattern, narrative, memory, and context? Even when we assume a young child's mind should be too immature for such feats, the prodigies I just told you about learned through intense study, parental support, or environment. But here's another category. In modern times, a child named Arden Hayes gained attention from memorizing detailed historical and scientific facts years before school age. Videos and interviews showed Hayes reciting presidential space history and scientific list with almost robotic precision. What fascinates us is isn't just the recall, it's how deep the content goes and how naturally it flows from his mind, almost as if the past were somehow already present to him. The prodigies we discussed learn through intense study, parental support or environment.

6:42 But there's another category, kids who seem to know things they couldn't have learned by normal means. That's where history starts to feel weird. You might be wondering, is any of this explainable? Modern psychological research suggests gifted children's and prodigies have unusual abilities in memory, pattern recognition, and information processing. Early work by researchers like Lita Hollingworth found that children with exceptionally high Iqs can engage with complex historical and intellectual patterns far earlier than expected. But here's the subtle twist. Actually, I want to go back. I was a gifted child. Air quotes as in elementary, well, in school. And it's interesting that they say that they have unusual abilities and memory, pattern recognition and information processing.

7:25 And of course I only know my own mind, but I don't feel like I'm good at any of those things. Yeah, it's kind of interesting. I wonder how that used to be judged because my twin sister and I were reading by the age of four, which seemed quite young at that time. And we went to school early. We went to school at 4:00. And I think part of the, the driving factor was that mom had a new baby and, and we were closer to 5 because we turned 5 in October of that year. So it would have been August, September, so 3-4 months before our birthday. But that's younger than most people because we were fluent to reading.

8:06 We weren't just reading a few words. We were reading little books, not, you know, Gone with the Wind. Not the pen to talk. Not bad. In any language. But I wonder, and I've always been a very strong reader. I read a lot but I am definitely, as you said, not strong in other areas, especially math. You know, my kids and I were talking about how they learn to read and I'm curious how you learn to read. So I don't know anything about like sounding out a word or phonetics or anything. I learned to recognize a word like so MIGHT is my I just know that, right? How did you learn to read? No idea. Really. Yeah, I don't. I mean I was young enough. I don't have any memories of my life before I was 12 and apparently part of that is ADHD.

8:52 But what's interesting is I could read the same as my sister from what mom says. However, I could not memorize thing. I was 10 in fifth grade, my mom spent a year with me teaching me basic memory skills. I would get one instruction and that's all I could do. But if she said go to the door, turn the knob and open it, I could go to the door and get there. Go now what? I do that everyday. I was just let me let you finish your story. Don't say it sorry. Well I was just going to say my sister remembers me going through all of this and how difficult it was. I remember feeling the frustration but I don't remember the actual events. But I remember just feeling really angry that year and I think that's why is because I was super frustrated.

9:35 I also remember that my 5th grade teacher, Missus Bluestone, told me I was stupid in front of the whole class because I wasn't getting the multiplication tables. That is, as we can imagine, had an effect on me through my short career. Anyway, that's that's my story. Yeah, I was just telling. I was just demonstrating for Holly yesterday how there were three things that I needed to remember. And it was, I believe I was transferring data from three sources to 1. I can't remember exactly, but I was like, OK, I need to do this, this and this. And then I got to this and I was like, shit. What's the next? This right exactly. So I have to keep going back and looking at that's like part of my daily life.

10:17 So it's crazy. There's a subtle twist between knowing a fact and knowing its meanings. Those are very different things. Some prodigies memorize facts, dates, languages, patterns without the emotional or cultural context adults build over a year. So when a young person speaks with certainty about something beyond their reasonable understanding, we must ask, is this memorized fact inherited cultural echo, or something deeper? But I don't don't know the answer. But let's move on to a category of stories that sit right at the edge of what medicine can comfortably explain. Children who seem to remember lives that ended before they were born. Before we go any further, I want to be very clear about what this episode is not. This is not about proving or disproving reincarnation. It's not about spirituality, belief systems, or religion. And it's definitely not about exploiting kids for shock value We're talking about.

11:01 What we are talking about are documented cases investigated by physicians and psychologists, where young children make verifiable historical statements about deceased individuals that they could not have reasonably known about through normal means. And we're also going to talk about the limits of that research, because if you're going to touch this topic responsibly, you have to hold both. Before we go, before we dive into the cases, I want to ground us in something important. Children are weird. They blend imagination and reality constantly. They misremember, they mimic. They absorb details from adults without realizing it. So when a child says something odd, the default explanation is usually the correct one. But the cases we're exploring today don't behave like imagination. They're persistent. They're emotionally charged.

11:44 They are resistant to correction. They're unusually specific and are often accompanied by fear, nightmares or phobias. And here's the part that matters. Clinically, these children are distressed, Not excited, not playful, not seeking attention. Distress without an obvious cause is something medicine takes seriously. So let's start with the research. In the 1960s, a psychiatrist named Ian Stevenson begin collecting reports of children who claimed memories of previous lives. He wasn't a Mystic. I was going to say he wasn't a Mystic. He wasn't a medical doctor. Nope, that is incorrect. He was a medical doctor. Not no to Mystic. Yes to doctor.

12:25 Stevenson eventually found him was now the University of Virginia Division of Perceptual Studies, or DOPS. Over several decades, his team documented more than 2500 cases worldwide. So I want that to sink in. Before I was researching for this episode, I had heard some of these some of these stories, I think maybe two or three that do that come up in in this as we go through this episode. But more than 2500 cases of children who remember lives that are not their own. Like that's a lot and I know. It's kind of. Ones and the right, those are the study ones, the recorded and study ones, right? And the art. So they weren't just stories.

13:05 Investigators interviewed families, separate investigators interviewed families separately, verified death records, cross checked geographic details and documented statements before any potential matching individual was identified. And I think that's important because obviously if I'm identifying an individual, I'm like, oh, little Johnny is definitely talking about Mr. Rogers. I might be be inclined to ask questions that direct him to identify this person as Mr. Rogers, right? So I I appreciate that a lot. Yeah. In some cases, children correctly identified names of deceased individuals, occupations, specific locations, unusual causes of death, details that were later confirmed through public records. That doesn't mean that reincarnation is proven. I know I've said it before saying it again. It does mean that something unusual was happening often enough to justify systematic study. And I think that's that's a cool statement. It is happening.

13:59 We see from the studies that it's happening and it's a phenomenon, right? It's just don't. Even 1 commonly cited type of case involves children who describe violent or sudden deaths. These kids often show intense fears, recurrent nightmares, emotional distress tied to specific imagery. In several documented instances, children described plane crashing, crashings, plane crashes, accidental drownings, workplace accidents, then identify details that matched a specific deceased person unknown to the family. As clinicians, for us that raises hard questions. Trauma responses without trauma exposure, PTSD like symptoms without a known precipitating event.

14:41 Now of course, to be responsible we have to talk about the skeptical explanations because there are several. These include crypto, cryptomnesia or forgotten memories, resurfacing, parental queuing, whether it's intentional or not, cultural storytelling or folklore, myths, fables, statistical coincidence. I mean, coincidence has happened, right? And then confirmation bias. So researchers like Jim Tucker, who took over Stevenson's work, openly acknowledge these limitations. And importantly, many cases do not hold up under scrutiny. But let's talk about some that do. This is the one I've heard the most commonly. And it's, it's a little bit of a vague 1, It's a little more anecdotal than some of the others, but it is the one I've heard the most often. There's a little boy in the American Midwest, barely old enough to form full sentences to begin waking up screaming at night, not crying, screaming.

15:30 His parents, his parents initially assumed it was normal childhood night terrors. But then the words starting to come. He talked about an airplane. He talked about fire, he talked about the ocean. And then one night, he said something that stopped his parents cold old. He said the plane crashed. I couldn't get out. Now, kids say strange things. But here's the problem. This child had never been on a plane and had never seen one crash. And his his parents were careful about what media he was exposed to. No war documentaries, no disaster footage. I mean, I really got to kind of hope you're not showing your toddler war documentaries a disaster. No kidding. Well. Here, little Timmy, let World War Three entertain you. I didn't mean to say World War Three. No, I take it back.

16:10 Let World War 2 entertain you. That should be fun. And the details didn't change night after night, the same story, same phrases, same panic. Eventually, as researchers would later document the child begin giving names, a ship, a time period, a type of aircraft. Those details would later match a real U.S. Navy pilot killed during World War 2. This case, and hundreds like it, is part of a body of research conducted, is part of the body of research conducted by Doctor Stevenson. And before anyone tunes out, Stevenson was not a fringe figure. He was trained at Johns Hopkins. He published in medical journals, and he approached these cases with extreme caution.

16:53 He didn't start with belief. He started with irritation, because the cases wouldn't stop coming. India, 1930s. No Internet, no documentaries, no culture, a cultural trend of past life stories, past life regressions, past life, etcetera. A little girl named Shanti Devi begins telling her parents that she is not their daughter. She says she has another home, another husband, another life. At first, her parents laugh it off. Kids say strange things. But Shanti doesn't stop. She names the city over 100 miles away, a place she's never visited. She describes a house, a business, a man she calls her husband, and she speaks calmly and repeatedly about dying in childbirth. Her parents try everything.

17:36 Correction, distraction, punishment, prayer. Nothing works. Eventually they're frightened enough to involve authorities, and what follows is not a seance, not a ritual, not a spiritual ceremony. They involved the authorities. It's an investigation. The Monty is taken to the city she named. She walks the street without hesitation. She points to a house she's never seen. She recognizes the man she claims was her husband. She knows private details. Later confirmed by independent sources, this case became one of the earliest formally documented examples of a child describing a previous life. The verifiable accuracy and whether you believe the explanation or not, the records exist.

18:18 Wow, that's wild. Hey I have a question though, how old was the husband do you know? Was he? Old, older. I don't know. I wonder. I don't know. To know how long it's been since she died in this version. I agree. I don't know. Conti's case isn't unique. It's just the beginning. Across thousands of cases, certain patterns repeat. The child is usually between two and six years old. The memories emerge suddenly. The child expresses fear, longing or grief. The details are specific, sometimes verifiable. The family often tries to discourage the story, and the memories fade. By age 6 to 8. This is a fantasy play. Fantasy changes. These stories don't. And that brings us to one of the most emotionally heavy cases ever reported, Scotland.

19:03 A young boy named Cameron McCauley begins talking about a White House by the sea. He describes an island, a dog, a family, a fall from a height and a sudden death. He cries for his other mother. He says he misses his other family. He draws pictures of the house, always the same house. His mother is confused, then worried, then heartbroken because Cameron isn't telling a story. He's grieving. Researchers eventually take Cameron to the island he describes, and there it is, the White House overlooking the ocean, a house his family has never seen, A house Cameron runs toward with the urgency of someone returning home. Inside, he points out rooms he names, objects he describes events that match the life of a man who lived and died in that house. Not everything matches memories.

19:50 Messy, but enough matches that the case becomes one of the most compelling in modern research. And again, the emotional tone matters. Cameron isn't excited, he's devastated. These cases aren't limited to one culture. They appear in II Sri Lanka, Lebanon, Turkey, Thailand, United States, Europe, Africa. I mean, why don't we just say all over the world? Yeah, really sounds like it. Some cultures interpret them spiritually, others suppress them. Some families hide them out of fear of stigma. But the patterns remain consistent across language, geography, religion, socioeconomic status. This consistency is part of what drew researchers to the phenomenon. Now we move to a case that feels uncomfortably modern because it's verifiable in a way earlier cases weren't. The boy in the United States, Ryan Hammonds begins describing a life in Los Angeles.

20:41 He talks about working in the film industry, multiple marriages, a sudden death, specific films from the 1930s and 40s, relationships between actors behind the scenes. Details no preschooler should know. His parents tried to debunk him. They actively tried to disprove his claims. Eventually, researchers match his statements to a real Hollywood agent named Marty Martin. Public records confirm details Ryan gave before anyone suggested a name. But what stands out isn't the accuracy. It's the regret. Ryan talks about his mistakes. Remember, this is a preschooler talks about his mistakes, about wishing he'd live differently, about wanting another chance.

21:22 Regret implies reflection, something rare in a child so young. And I also find it fascinating that I think we're also seeing the preschooler there, because technically being Ryan would be another chance, wouldn't it? I would think so, but maybe he's thinking the chance to have rewritten. His mistake. Marty's, Marty's life. Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. But I just, it would be really interesting. I didn't do any recent, you know, sometimes as I'm saying it, then I'm like, oh, I should have thought to look this up. But it would be interesting to know what kind of what Ryan was like outside of this part of him. Is he a propitious little sticker? Or was he, like, just thoughtful and studious? And you know, I mean, I'm so curious. Yeah, good question.

22:07 Sri Lanka A girl named Purnima Eken Nayaki insists she wants lived as a man who made incense. She describes the materials, the technique, the smell, the workshop, the town, the sudden death. Her family doesn't make incense. She has no exposure to the trade. Investigators later confirmed the existence of an incense maker whose life and death align with her account. Her family's embarrassed. They want the claims to stop, but they don't. Wonder why they're embarrassed? I do too. I think it goes back to that cultural acceptance, you know, in India, they seem to be much more culturally accepting of this idea than they do in say, Sri Lanka. And it looks like I think in the United States you'd probably see a, a split if you were to pull people if, if you will. I don't really know about any of the other countries, but it does seem to responses definitely seem to be based on cultural norms and that sort of thing.

23:02 And maybe it making this up. I don't know anything, but maybe they they associate it with something evil or or something like that, you know, who knows? Yeah, possession or something. OK, India again. A girl named Swarn Lada Mishra demonstrates knowledge of music and dance forms she's never been trained in. She recognizes compositions. She identifies instruments. She corrects adults. She describes a previous life as a performer. Investigators trace her descriptions to a real woman whose biography matches Swarn Lada's claims with unsettling closeness. This case introduces a new dimension skill transfer, not just memory ability.

23:43 Imagine having a preschool or a toddler whatever have you and one day they just start dancing the Swan Lake on point. Just do it perfectly like what? And so it you know, it makes makes me well, I'm plagiarizing you makes me think about like skill transfer. Could I just what if we could have skill transfer of like cooking or I don't know what else is cool to do. Math. Math. And since we both mentioned this is a lack. And here's where medicine enters the conversation. These children often present with nightmares, phobias, panic attacks, somatic symptoms, anxiety tied to the death. They describe these real symptoms. And when symptoms appear without a clear cause, clinicians don't dismiss them.

24:30 They investigate. Because trauma without an identifiable source is still trauma. And these cases behave like trauma. The University of Virginia's DO PS has spent decades studying these cases. Their work doesn't claim certainty. It claims patterns. Patterns that challenge our understanding of memory, identity, consciousness, the boundaries of the self. Whether these cases represent reincarnation, inherited memory, dissociation, or we didn't even talk about dissociation or something we haven't named yet, they point to gaps in our current models and medicine advances by exploring gaps. You know what? I've been as I was trying to reconcile this in my own mind. I think I've told you. I'm sure I've told you, but I don't know if I've ever said it in the podcast. I believe in basically a universal net or shared common consciousness.

25:18 I don't know, I don't know, I don't know what to call it. We're all connected on a cosmic level to some degree. I could see this being like, you know how I mean, I'm sure you've been on a phone call and suddenly somebody else is on your phone call and the the wires have crossed, right, The lines have crossed, whatever. And I, I sometimes wonder if it's just that, if it's just like they're getting this download or this, this not download, but this signal that's just not meant for them. But it did. The wires got crossed. I don't know. Have you had any experiences with children knowing too much? I have. I was thinking about this because my daughter, when she was born, her great grandmother, died literally in the same hospital at nearly the same time. And I couldn't go see Grandma Miller because I was in labor and then had a season, so I was busy. But Juliana always had a special connection to her. And when she was quite young, she saw a picture of Great Grandma Miller that neither of us had ever seen before. Because I don't remember why we hadn't seen it, but we did. And Juliana was old enough to say that's Great Grandma Miller. And we knew she hadn't seen her, but she recognized her, and everyone was really surprised.

26:32 And they always had. She always had special feelings towards her. There wasn't like a shared memory, like she didn't say and then Grandma Miller and I did, blah, blah, blah. But she always felt specially close to her. And Grandma Miller was crocheting an Afghan for Juliana. And right the week she was, she died. She had started it and she had like one strip done and then I got that strip and the ball of yarn that was involved with it, but I don't know how to crochet. So I never did anything with it. And then when Juliana moved out, I said here you go. And I had, And I have no idea what the status of that is now. I don't know if Juliana still has it or not, but that special bond was always cool to me, even though I knew she had not met her. On this side of life, if you will. That's fun.

27:20 I also wanted I would really love to know Juliana has has treasured that or if it's long gone and I have no judgement either way, I'm just curious. Yeah, me too. I know she did for a very long time. We haven't talked about it for years. But Juliana, when you listen to this, comment on Spotify or send us an e-mail and let us know, because I know she listens. Yay. Everything just left my brain, it's empty black hole. Nice. I mean good timing. I know, I know, right? Great timing. I don't know. I can't remember what I was going to say, but one of the things that I thought was interesting is what if this were not children? What if this were adults doing the same thing? Do you think it would be as interesting? I think it would be more disproved or more disbelieved because I think that people would always think that there was an ulterior motive and the person was lying. OK, and I do remember what I would say, I will say this about that, but and hopefully I won't lose this thing again. But one thing I will say about that is certainly an adult has significantly more resources and capabilities for research and and even cover up, right?

28:25 Like you can maybe do some research and then you can cover up the fact that you did this research. It reminds me of a person I was interviewing for another podcast I used to do. And it it was he was trying. He was telling me he was a psychic and he was trying to demonstrate his psychic abilities. Yeah, he he had clearly gone gone through my Facebook and gleaned some information about me. And at first, right at the beginning of the call, he had said something. And I was like, holy moly there. You know, that's amazing. And it was something about my aunt who has passed and ironically enough, the same aunt who if you listen to our episode about COVID, I had to say in front of my boss, my aunt is dead.

29:08 But not really. You'll know that story if you have listened to it. Anyway, so then, and then he said he so he came up with two things that were like wildly specific. And he kind of like, he kind of he did this like, OK, so my aunt's name is Annetta. And he was like somebody Annette, Annette, Annette, right. Anyway, there was just something about his, I don't know, something about him and the way he was presenting it that I was just kind of like, I don't, I'm not feeling this right, Like I don't think so. And so I told our Co executive Narco I we're the executive producers of this. They told our executive producer who I was not a Co with. I told our executive producer of that podcast that I just wasn't feeling great about, about having this guy on our show. And he was like, no, you know, let me, let me talk to him and I'll get a feel for him.

30:01 And then we'll kind of decide if we want to have this guest. And it was really interesting because when Topher talked to him, he kind of did the same sort of thing. But where he didn't know he had messed up is he referred to 1 of Tofers friends by their given name that they would were on Facebook as but that person didn't go by that name right? And so Topher knew that it wasn't legitimate. Basically, I think if a three-year old were telling me that my aunt and that I had something to say to me, I think that I'd have a very different response. Yeah, exactly. That's what I that's what I mean. Because there wouldn't be the secondary gain. There would be nothing they could possibly get from it, unlike an adult who's trying to play you somehow. And I think to me it's more air quote legitimate. And I don't even know if the air quotes are necessary, but to me it's more believable.

30:56 Maybe no more explainable, but more believable. So why would you do if you were, let's say, working in a clinic and a parent came in with this, with this story and specifically, Oh, that just reminded me anyway, specifically squirrel with this story saying my child is has has symptoms of trauma. How would you respond to that as a nurse? I'd say your doctor will be right in. I think that, I mean, I obviously would also say your doctor will be right in, but I think. That. You know, I would, it's so tricky because I would be like what's in this for the parent? Well, and I know.

31:36 That's a really skeptical, like pessimistic point of view, but. Right. Does it make sense? I know I would tend to believe the child because I believe in stuff like that. But it also depends, like you were talking earlier, culturally there are some people who don't believe that. There's some countries who don't believe that. There's some people that now will think they're possessed or something along that and it could have a whole different meaning. And like you were talking about Sri Lanka having more difficulty with this and the things you've you've researched. It's probably a cultural thing, as in many of these things are. So whether they'd be believed or not from the point of view of the nurse or the doctor or whoever they see would depend a lot on that person, the region they're in, their belief systems as well. And I think the thing to do is to support the child in the family, to help them through whatever this is. I would be, I would be skeptical. I would definitely be on.

32:32 I'd be on alert to see if I saw any queuing or nudging or correcting. I don't know. I'm. Or even scripting because child If a child is explaining something that they haven't been coached in or scripted for, it's much more obvious than if an adult has been coached. Because a child will use. If they're saying it in their own words, they'll use their own words. They won't usually use advanced words, but in some of these cases it sounds like they have used advanced words because they're recalling something that wasn't their experience of their age. Does that make? Sense Well, yeah, it does.

33:13 And if you take Arden Hayes, the cute little I don't know if you ever saw him on Jimmy Kimmel Live or Ellen or anything, he's he's a 17 year old now, but he was a cute little 5 year old and with his thing, he knew all the presidential facts and he could identify any country on a map in the world and I think he could tell you the capital of things like that. But in that case it, it was Rome memorization, right? Like he he didn't come out of the womb and know every single president's trivia, right. And so I think that, but you would probably see that as a matter of fact, I can confirm that when Arden Hayes would answer questions on these talk shows, you know, what's what's Abraham Lincoln's middle name? I don't know making stuff up, but it he'd answer the same way, right. It was always the same words.

33:57 And that's kind of I think what you're saying about if they were, if they had been coached or been scripted, then they would just basically it would, it would sound probably wrote right ROTE of ER. And then I had this is a little more, this is a little less sciency and a little more eerie fairy. But I did want to just take a minute to to talk about and to think about. Do you think that there is something that there's a there are ways that children perceive the world that adults lose and that that might have something that that might have some impact on memory and identity? Yes, I I do think that because so if I had an adult and they got some sort of memory or download or whatever you want to call it and they would filter it through whatever their life experiences has been.

34:50 And they probably wouldn't believe it. They would probably think they were crazy. They were probably think all of a child doesn't have all that filtering going on because they simply have not experienced things to make those filters. So I say a child, child would be much more ready to have these memories or receive this information or whatever it is we want to call it. And it would be pure. It wouldn't. Child wouldn't really question it because they don't have any reason to. They're just. Like that makes perfect sense. I remember this. OK. Yeah, so there it is. I, I realized I kind of walked away from this. I was proposing that maybe there's a crossed line sort of situation, crossed wires. Do you have a theory on on what this might be on the spot? You know, I think not necessarily. I think what you're saying about cross wires or maybe something like that makes sense, but I can't say what I could call it because if I couldn't even call it a false memory I don't think. I think it's just a recovered memory even maybe. Yeah.

35:59 And I think it's, you know, it's possible maybe it's not even a single explanation like is it? Is it possible that multiple explanations you can coexist? You know, we're kind of in this black and white binary, one-size-fits-all, but maybe, maybe it's not. It's true and also I'm wondering. Heavy, not heavy like bad heavy, but it's it's a lie it. Is well, and the one thing that comes to my mind is why do these memories recur? What is the point? Is there? Is there a grand scheme of things that this memory needed to be brought forward? Do I know the answer? No, not even a little. Bit I don't either. But it's a, it is as you say, it's a, it's a head.

36:39 Scratcher and it would be interesting to know it would be interesting to know how these children are now. Like do they remember the memories still do they didn't you say that they usually forget it around the age of I did I did. But like in some of these cases, right, they got famous ish right. Notoriety word. But yeah, notoriety. And so, you know, maybe because it got put into the zeitgeist, they may remember it more because they have exterior clues maybe, you know? Triggers. Triggers. Yes, that. Yeah, exactly. I don't know. Me either. Do you have any other stories though? This is really, really interesting. I don't think I do not have any more stories. Do the scientists that study this have any theories? I mean, you know that you said that a lot of people are studying it, but what the heck did they think? They don't really.

37:28 They don't really. I mean, maybe if I read the entire study and it's in its raw form, I would find something, but I didn't really see anything that said any theories. They don't really give any theories. And then I mean, I think that they're probably just like we are frankly trying to avoid any appearance of like, oh, we're proving reincarnation because I don't think I to be clear, I actually even, I don't even think it's fair to say this does or can prove reincarnation. I think there's far too many more explanations then I do that a lot. This it's just because I'm baffled because I mean, we could really, really get into some crazy hypotheses and you know, maybe you think about how you can't destroy matter, right?

38:14 Matter stays matter. You can transfer it, you can whatever it you could push it away, but you can't destroy it. Like matter stays change state, change state, right? And so maybe like, as we live and die and live and die and live and die and live and die on this Earth, maybe like there's just atoms of another person that happened to store these memories that come out. I don't know. You gotta make sense. I don't know. Oh, yeah. My memories. So yeah. This. Is gonna theories any really, isn't it? Right. Yeah, that's what I that's what I'm saying is like there's just, you really can think about if they continue to study this and they make a breakthrough discovery and we find out something scientific, so not reincarnation. Like what would that, what would, why can't I speak English, think about the impact that could have on mental health and trauma and healing.

39:13 And like, maybe this is a key to a greater understanding and more increased ability to treat the human mind. Yeah. Well, and it could be. And one of the things we do know is that we don't know much about the brain. Yeah, exactly. All the study. Yeah, man, the brain. I say this every time we talk about the brain. The brain, Like, the fact that you can have a hemispherectomy and still, like, exist and be an abled human being is wild. Exactly. All right, Well, in conclusion, and I feel like I'm doing a high school book report, and in conclusion, I'm not asking you to believe these children.

39:55 I'm asking you to believe they are. They are in distress to acknowledge that something's happening, something we don't fully understand, and to sit with the discomfort of uncertainty because sometimes the most honest sentence in medicine is also the hardest one to say we don't know yet. I don't know. Yeah, no, it's true. And there's a lot that we don't know. There's a lot that we don't know. But I think it's one of those opportunities to really listen to the person who's describing all of this and see if we can figure it out. I mean, what would we do as nurses? And I, I did say sort of tongue in cheek saying your doctor's on the way in. But, but really we as nurses are the ground workers, if you will, and having the the daily contact with patients, if we don't have the compassion for whatever they're experiencing for whatever reason, that's going to change their experience completely, especially if they're children and they're treated poorly or they're teased or whatever. That's going to set their the rest, the kind of the tone for the rest of their life for medical care. Yeah, I'm going to ask my mom if I'm. I just got to thinking, like, for all we know, Andrea, you and I had memories like this and we just got old. It's like the Peter Pan situation, right? We got old and we forgot the opposite of Peter Pan syndrome, I guess.

41:16 But like, like, what if we had memories like this and now we just don't have them anymore? Like, I'm very curious and I'm sad that your mom's not lucid enough that you can ask her, but my mom is and I'm going to ask her if I ever did anything like this or came out from left field with information or something because that would be something really interesting to know about myself. And maybe I haven't, maybe I'm just reaching for straws and being a goofball, but I am curious because who knows? Like it could. Just because 2500 people were studied doesn't mean that 1,000,000 don't have memories like this. Who knows, right? I'm just probably throwing stuff out there, but. Well, exactly. And also, in most cases, most families would just say, huh, that's cute. Yeah, yeah. Right, exactly because why would they think of anything else, really? Yeah, yeah, it just.

42:00 And I remember reading a story where a child remembered dying in the Trade Trade Center. Really. Yeah. And they remembered being someone who jumped out of a window. I know that would be very traumatic. And that's where I wonder why. Why does this child have to deal with that? But, and I, it's been long enough since I read the story. I don't recall details but I just remember them telling their parent this and the parent just being devastated that's this kid was even feeling anything about that or knew anything about it. Or any of it, right. So yeah, that's the thing too that really interested me about this topic and why I wanted to choose it was was the details.

42:42 The like this wasn't like I was an old man and now I'm a baby, right? It was the the name of the airplane and the model and the war zone and the and the date and the White House on the coast and the, you know, all of that. Like that's and to have it provable, right? Like it's one thing to have a kid be like, oh, there's a White House on the coast and there's a fence and somebody fell and I'm so sad. It's another thing to have a child drawing pictures of a house. They've never seen and then showing it to you when you take them to where they say it is. Exactly right, Right. That would be wild and difficult for I would think as a parent to go, Oh yeah, that makes sense. I can't think of any circumstances where my children did anything like this so.

43:32 Right, Right. It's wild. Well, that's cool. Really interesting story. But I hope it wasn't too disjointed. Listeners let us know if it was too disjointed. Also, welcome to our minds. That's right. All right, Thanks and soon. Bye. All right. If you've made it this far, clearly you like a little mayhem with your medicine. Or you just enjoy hearing us ramble about weird medical mysteries. Either way, we'd love you for it. So hit that follow or subscribe button wherever you're listening. And toss us a rating or review while you're at it. Helps other curious weirdos find the show. And we know there are a lot of you out there. Oh so many. Come join the chaos. Thanks for listening to Medicine, Mystery, mayhem, and sometimes Murder. Do you have an idea for an episode of this podcast? Just want to say hi.

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