April 14, 2026

Ep. 30: I Need a Hero?

Show Notes
Transcript

He was a nurse. He was trusted with the most vulnerable patients in intensive care. And somewhere along the way, the line between saving lives and ending them disappeared entirely.

Niels Högel worked the cardiac wards of two hospitals in northern Germany, where deaths under his watch climbed to alarming rates -- rates that colleagues noticed, whispered about, and ultimately failed to stop. For years, he induced cardiac arrests in his patients just to step in and play the hero. Some survived. Many didn't. By the time investigators finished exhuming bodies from 67 cemeteries across three countries, the confirmed death toll had reached 85 -- with suspicions stretching to 300 or more.

This week, Andrea and Crystal are digging into one of the most chilling cases in modern medical history: a killer hidden in plain sight, the colleagues who saw the warning signs, and a system that handed him glowing reference letters instead of accountability.

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Welcome to M4 Medicine, mystery,
mayhem, and sometimes murder.

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I'm Andrea Marziano and RN with
35 years of experience across

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various fields.
From direct patient care in

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hospitals to home health,
geriatrics, and injury medicine,

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I face life, death, and
everything in between.

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And I'm Crystal Miller and RN
with 13 1/2 years of experience.

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My work spans home health,
Hospice, emergency care,

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geriatrics, and occupational
health.

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From the chaos of trauma based
quiet moments with patients,

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I've seen stories that defy
explanations.

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We've been friends for over 25
years and as nurses we've shared

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countless stories that have left
us and our families speechless.

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Now we're bringing those stories
and many more to you in

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medicine, mystery, mayhem, and
sometimes murder.

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Each week, we'll uncover cases
that challenge the boundaries of

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medicine, sharing the human
stories behind the science.

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From puzzling medical mysteries
to shocking real life crimes,

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we'll bring you stories that'll
leave you questioning everything

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you thought you knew while.
We're both experiencing these

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nurses.
We want to make it clear we're

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not here to give medical advice.
This podcast is about

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storytelling, education and
exploration, not diagnosing or

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treating medical conditions.
This is medicine, mystery,

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mayhem, and sometimes murder.
Let's dive in.

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Hey, Crystal, how are you doing?
I'm.

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Doing very well.
How are you?

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I'm very well thank you.
Trying to get back to regular

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life.
Well as you know I have been

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traveling and I was away from
home for about 6 weeks.

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Yeah, it's a long time.
It was I spent time and I did a

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Southeast Asia cruise.
So I started in South Korea and

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my friend I went with and I
spent a day and a half there

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first and went around and ate
some cool food, saw some cool

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sights, walked some really
uneven streets.

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And it's, we stayed in a hotel.
You know, one of the things

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about getting hotels in another
country is it's impossible to

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know really what you're getting.
Right, for sure, yeah.

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We did some research.
I was just happy that we did

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this research together because
the building we chose in Seoul

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was suboptimal.
It was.

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Do you remember our trip to
Europe where we stayed in

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hostels?
Sure do lot like that.

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We had our own room and it had
two twin beds, which was fine.

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There allegedly was an air
conditioner, but it was not able

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to be felt.
And our bathroom had the shower

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and the toilet and the sink all
in the same space.

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Hey, at least they weren't in
the front room like in France.

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That's I do remember that.
That was quite an adventure.

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The problem with that situation
was that apparently the shower

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faucet was dripping, so every
time we walked into the toilet

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area, it had 1/4 inch of water
on the floor.

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So that was fun.
We didn't understand at first

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why they had these slippers
outside the bathroom door.

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I'm pretty sure that's why they
didn't want us to break our

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doggone necks.
And it was such that my

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travelling companion said I'm
not going to shower in here.

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She she wanted to wait till we
got on the micro shower and the

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cruise.
I showered in there.

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I didn't care because the floor
is wet anyway, so what's the

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difference?
But it was.

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It was.
Which means it's not like

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stagnant, you know, poo water.
That's.

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True.
You happen to remember that, do

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you?
Our listeners might not know

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this, but Crystal had an
experience in Germany.

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Wasn't it England?
London.

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Oh, was it?
I thought it was our German 10.

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No, it was London at any rate.
And that was fun.

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Do you want to briefly explain
that and then we'll move on to

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our?
Very very quick nutshell

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version.
We were staying in a hostel and

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the bathrooms were communal.
This is actually a terribly

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funny story, but it's also
terrible.

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OK, so Andrea and I were
different people because this

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was like 2003 or something.
I don't remember exactly the

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year, but it was a long.
Time ago, different people.

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So basically, I mean, you could
call it backpacking across

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Europe, but we certainly weren't
carrying backpacks.

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We have luggage anyway, so
London was our last stop.

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We've gone to Greece, Italy,
Spain, France and then.

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We.
Germany.

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That's right.
Germany then that was the

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France, Yeah, then France, then
England.

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So.
So this was the last leg of our,

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of our journey.
And we were in this hostel.

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I'll tell you the name of it.
It was called Kensington Place.

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For the record, I'll never
forget.

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I don't know if it's still
around or not, but bleep bleep

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Kensington Place.
Yeah, anyway.

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Oh my gosh, I said it wrong.
It's Paddington place, like the

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bear.
My apologies.

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Kensington, the palace,
Paddington place.

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Anyway, I'd be laboring this too
much.

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Long story short, I hadn't
showered for a while and the

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showers were for the whole
hostels.

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They were, you know, Co Ed, Co
everything.

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And I was like, I just don't
want, you know, I was prude and

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so I just really didn't want to.
And after he was like, you're

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gross.
You you should shower.

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And she did that because she
was, she was avoiding the shower

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for days because it was
something she wasn't comfortable

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with.
It was right exactly.

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It was time.
Anyway, she was needling me,

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needling me.
So finally I was like, I'd be

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grudgingly, oh, go into the
shower.

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And because I'm a prude, I take
all of my clean clothes and into

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the shower with me.
My plan is to, you know, take

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off my dirty clothes in the
shower, shower, dry off, put on

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my clean clothes in the shower,
all in privacy, right?

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So I draped my clothes so bad, I
draped my clothes, my clean

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clothes over the shower wall
just to keep them away from the

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water.
I shower, I go to grabbed my

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clean clothes and there is poop
all over them and somebody had

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rubbed poop onto the top of the
wall of the shower and when I

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pulled my clothes down I had
dragged poop over the walls of

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the shower.
Anyway, we we lovingly referred

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to it as my poop shower.
Yes, yes, she really appreciated

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it a lot.
Really did and then I had to.

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I ended up having to go back to
my room in a towel anyway

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because I'm poop clothes on.
If I remember, you even just

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threw those away, didn't you?
Because no, we made them wash.

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Them and they were trying to
charge us and it was this whole

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and then you flirted with them,
remember, You flirted with them.

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You know, you got to work your
skills, but yeah, I had them do

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that and we refused to pay.
Yeah, Yep, we did.

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We, we did.
And what's funny is all the

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reason I wasn't showering was
because we mentioned a little

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bit before the last, the last
place the shower had been in the

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middle of the room.
And again, we were prudes.

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And so I was not about to shower
in the middle of the room today.

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I would be like, who cares?
But.

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But back in those days, I was
like, I can't be seen naked by

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other people.
Yeah.

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Your sister and me, we were, we
were really, we were strangers.

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Oh, my gosh.
Can you imagine now?

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It's like, you know?
Showered because I was like I

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had no private options since
Germany when we were visiting my

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parents I.
Forgot about that and I frankly

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even then didn't really care if
anyone saw me naked.

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And now I'm and now.
I'm to the point you showered in

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France.
I I showered, Yeah.

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And I showered without poop in
England.

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Now I kind of feel like, you
know what, if you want to look

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at this while I'm showering,
it's not you, not me.

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I don't.
I mean, you know, and some

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people say, well, what if it
goes on the Internet?

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I'm like, yeah, maybe they'll
make it look better and I'll be

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I'll be known to be the the sexy
grandma.

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Yeah, sure.
Because I'm pretty sure they're

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not going to publish this.
But anyway, well, oh, memories,

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memories.
OK, so did you want to say

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anything more about your cruise?
We got a little sidetracked.

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Sidetracked.
No.

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I had a great time.
We can talk about it more

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another time, but it was in
Southeast Asia and it was really

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interesting.
I liked it a lot because it was

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just, I had been to Shanghai,
but that was very different and

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this was just a whole different
experience.

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The weather was hot and humid
and nice, and I liked it.

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It was just good.
I met some really cool people.

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In fact, I'm going to see two of
them here in September.

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They're going on another cruise
and they're going to be in

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Seattle for a few days in
advance.

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They're from England.
I don't think they've been.

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I will tell them that they live
there, so they probably won't,

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but I'll be sure.
Neither of these two, I think,

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are particularly hostile kind of
people.

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As in hostile staying and also
not hostile hostile.

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Oh, we're just we crack
ourselves up.

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Did you go to China?
Did you go to China on this

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cruise?
We went to Hong Kong.

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We were to go to Okinawa, Japan,
but there was a big storm and so

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we couldn't get in.
It was actually kind of funny.

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Not not it was funny.
OK.

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Anyway, a lot of people were
sick and when the first couple

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of days of the cruise was not
great weather, it was.

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I saw the.
Yeah, I saw you sent me the the

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peaks in the ocean.
Yeah, and that day was when most

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people weren't in the eating
areas.

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The staff had taken emesis bags
and put them in little holders

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that went over all of the
railings on each floor as they

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were in the elevator.
They were all over the place.

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They were at the door of the
eating areas.

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Unfortunately one of the women
came in and thought she was

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going to be able to eat
breakfast, but unfortunately

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haven't had an emesis experience
at our table.

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As the people who know me know,
emesis is one of my least

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favorite things, which for those
who are not medical people,

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emesis is a vomit.
It's just less fun to see when

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one is eating or trying to eat.
Yeah, I concur.

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She got up as quickly as she can
and she apologized profusely the

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next day when she could speak
again.

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We all felt so sorry for her.
Anyway, beyond that, I never got

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sick.
People had been sick that day

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and the captain kept coming over
the loudspeaker saying when

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you're walking through the ship,
please hold on to things.

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We don't want people falling.
I know there have been a couple

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people that had fallen and it
was kind of like walking through

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after having been drinking a
lot, except for I hadn't had

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anything to drink because it
would be like I'd go to step in.

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The ground was gone and so did
hold on to things.

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00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:05,040
But they did say limit your
walking as much as possible and

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they closed off all the decks
because they didn't want who's

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sliding.
Off.

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00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,040
Yeah, and this is an older ship,
so the rails are a little bit

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lower.
The newer ships.

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The rails are my chest level,
so, you know, waist high.

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I'm just kidding, but they're
quite highs.

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You have to work really hard to
get off over a railing on ships

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these days.
The older ships were a little

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bit lower, so a person could
fall.

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It would still be an effort and
it would take a lot, but it

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would it was still possible.
So plus the doors, I couldn't

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even open the door if I wanted
to.

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The wind was so strong.
We had the where I took the

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video was our balcony could open
that door.

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But it was with great effort as
well.

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And I did not fling myself off
nor my phone, which I was glad

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about too.
Yeah, both good news.

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00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,280
I like cruising a lot.
Yeah, anyway, so it was fun, so

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00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:51,160
I'm glad I went.
The next trip I go probably

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00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:53,280
won't be a cruise, but I do
enjoy them.

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00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:56,800
Since our our podcast is not
about cruises, I thought we

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00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,600
might jump into our topic.
I was wondering, Crystal, have

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00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:05,160
you ever heard of people called
Angels of Death or maybe

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00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:08,440
Resuscitation Rambos?
I've heard angels of death.

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00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,040
I actually haven't heard
resuscitation Rambos, but I like

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00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:12,320
it.
I like it.

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00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:14,000
I.
Mean, I don't like them, but I

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00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,320
like that phrase.
That's a good title, right?

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00:11:16,680 --> 00:11:19,840
Well, the story we're going to
talk about today is the history

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00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:23,880
of Nigel Hogle, and he's a
German ex nurse.

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00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:26,040
Ex is a very important part
right now.

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00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:29,480
And convicted of killing 85
patients.

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00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,120
Wow. 80.
Five.

236
00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:35,040
No kidding.
It just it boggles my mind that

237
00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:36,560
this is even a possibility.
Yeah.

238
00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:38,320
That he can get away with 80
fact.

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00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,040
Like I doubt he killed 85 in one
day.

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00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:45,360
Right, correct, correct.
It was over time and you know,

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00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:47,560
there have been other nurses
that we've heard of and other

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00:11:47,560 --> 00:11:49,640
medical professionals that we've
heard of that have been

243
00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,840
considered angels of death in
their minds, not to other

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00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:54,480
people.
And we'll talk about some of

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00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,200
those later on.
Not today, but other podcast

246
00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:58,920
episode.
I found this one really

247
00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:01,760
interesting and I had not heard
of with him or at least if I had

248
00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:04,200
I had forgotten but my sources
hearing about.

249
00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,360
Him either, sorry I didn't.
Yeah, and maybe because he's

250
00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:09,640
from Germany and we just don't
hear about them as much.

251
00:12:10,680 --> 00:12:15,520
The sources I used today are BBC
News, NPR and an article in

252
00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:17,240
Wikipedia, which is for the
background.

253
00:12:17,680 --> 00:12:19,760
So the background is where I'm
going to start right now.

254
00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:24,960
So Niles Hoggle was born on
December 30th of 1976.

255
00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:28,080
So he's a contemporary of you,
not me.

256
00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:29,200
Wow.
Yeah.

257
00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:33,240
He was born in a coastal town in
Germany, it was called.

258
00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:35,280
I will likely say this
incorrectly.

259
00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,400
I should have had you say the
names because you speak German.

260
00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,560
But Wilhelm Shaven, Lower Saxony
in West Germany.

261
00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:44,400
So Wilhelm Saven, sure.
Or maybe Wilhelm.

262
00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:46,400
Wilhelm Saven actually probably
will.

263
00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:48,600
Oh yes, Haven does make more
sense.

264
00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:52,640
It is that town.
And for interesting history, his

265
00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:56,000
father worked as a nurse at a
hospital in town and his

266
00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,720
grandmother worked as a nurse.
His mother worked as a

267
00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:01,600
paralegal.
He had an older sister.

268
00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,360
And what was really funny in the
history, it says he has an older

269
00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:06,120
sister.
Full stop.

270
00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:10,520
Full stop, That was it OK, so
that good to know I that's

271
00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,800
great.
According to Niles, he had a

272
00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,240
shelter to protect your
childhood and was not exposed to

273
00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:18,320
any violence at home.
Now the reason that's

274
00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,960
interesting is because most of
the time when we hear of people

275
00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:25,160
that are serial killers or
anything like that, there's

276
00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:28,360
sometimes there's a reason.
I mean they don't usually

277
00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:30,560
they're not usually quote
normal.

278
00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:34,720
This guy from all intents and
purposes, looks like he would

279
00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:36,880
have been considered air quote
normal.

280
00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:41,080
He did his regular life and then
he married in 2004.

281
00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:43,760
In July of 2004, his daughter
was born.

282
00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:47,200
Sounds like they had a baby
either quickly or were pregnant

283
00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,080
when they got married, which is
neither here nor there.

284
00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:51,720
It is just how it was.
I bring that up because I feel

285
00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,960
like that adds some stress to a
relationship.

286
00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,840
Whether either case were right,
whether either case were true.

287
00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,240
Just as a by the by and for
information.

288
00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:05,520
He also had a history of alcohol
abuse and analgesic abuse, which

289
00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:09,040
doesn't seem to be part of the
story, but it could have been.

290
00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,600
I don't think so based on the
way it worked.

291
00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:14,000
One of the things that when I
was reading the history of all

292
00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:17,080
of this, and I believe this part
was then the BBC article, is

293
00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:22,320
that after all of this happened
in 2019, a forensic psychiatrist

294
00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,320
evaluated him and described
Hogel.

295
00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:27,760
I'll just use his last name
probably from now on.

296
00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,040
To have a combined personality
disorder.

297
00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:35,960
Being a narcissist, dissocial
and compulsive, he had a strong

298
00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,280
need for recognition up to being
historonic, with a desire for

299
00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,240
excitement, thrill, action and
remarkable lack of empathy.

300
00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,760
He had neither feelings of guilt
nor shame nor remorse, and the

301
00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:49,160
chance of successful therapy
were very, very low.

302
00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:52,280
Wow.
That says a lot, doesn't it, to

303
00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,400
have all of that going on.
It's interesting to me that in

304
00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:57,960
all of the history that they
talked about, it never talked

305
00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:02,680
about the things that you hear,
that he hurt animals, he hurt

306
00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:06,040
other people, hit his head,
right, Because head injury is so

307
00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:07,960
connected to some of these
disorders.

308
00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,920
There's no indication of that.
And it was recently enough that

309
00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:13,320
it seems like there would have
been if that had been the case.

310
00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:15,360
But there was no information
about that.

311
00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,440
I don't know if it's because he
was in Germany, maybe they don't

312
00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:21,240
look at those things as much as
we do in the United States or

313
00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:23,880
anything like that.
But the fact that it was never

314
00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:27,640
mentioned that as a 7 year old
boy he ripped the feathers out

315
00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:30,000
of a chicken or something,
because there's almost always

316
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:31,040
something like that, isn't
there?

317
00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:32,280
I mean, I don't really think of
a Yeah, I'm.

318
00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,600
Trying to remember.
I'm a little bit embarrassed.

319
00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,920
I can't remember the third
because it's considered some

320
00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:40,800
people call it like the devil's
triad.

321
00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,360
Now, obviously they're actually,
I shouldn't say obviously there

322
00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,160
are actually several things that
people call the devil's triad.

323
00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,240
This is like the devil's triad
of serial killers, but it's head

324
00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:54,240
injury, hurting animals or a
lack of empathy.

325
00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:55,920
And I can't remember the third
one.

326
00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:58,520
So sorry listeners being a bad
murdery no.

327
00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,120
I know a couple of the things
that they've mentioned because

328
00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,840
as you say, some people describe
it differently, are also being

329
00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:09,040
abused themselves and having an
unstable family life.

330
00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,600
Yeah, for sure.
Those things do attribute to

331
00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:17,160
these kinds of situations.
Although in this case, while he

332
00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:19,560
ultimately was considered a
serial killer, he did it

333
00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:23,400
differently than most.
So this disorder, this

334
00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:27,360
personality disorder and all of
these things were more likely

335
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,080
caused than some of this other
stuff because a lot of those

336
00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:32,480
people that had those
experiences and our serial

337
00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:36,400
killers are also sociopaths.
So they cannot connect at all to

338
00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:38,160
what they're doing to other
people.

339
00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,080
Although Hogle also was
considered to have a remarkable

340
00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,640
lack of empathy.
So anyway, to do the story,

341
00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:45,720
here's how it went.
Niles, excuse me.

342
00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:51,760
Hogle had become a nurse just
going through regular Community

343
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,200
College and doing his usual
experiences things and getting

344
00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,840
his training.
Nothing really stood out in that

345
00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:01,680
and in 1999 through.
I just have I just have to say

346
00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:03,640
something.
It's it's eating at me.

347
00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,200
What's that?
What is so crazy is nursing is

348
00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:11,960
like known as the empathetic,
empathetic, empathetic career

349
00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:14,920
choice.
Nursing equals empathy.

350
00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:19,760
You know what I mean?
I just, that blows my mind how a

351
00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:24,000
person with truly no empathy can
decide to go to nursing school.

352
00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,640
Just boggles my mind.
I'm so sorry for interrupting

353
00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:28,280
you.
I had to say that because I I'm

354
00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:30,840
just, I'm just stunned.
So sorry please.

355
00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,000
Continue.
Well, and I get that, and it's

356
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,040
an interesting perspective.
And I wonder if the reason he

357
00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:38,640
became a nurse was because his
his grandmother and his father

358
00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:40,480
were nurses.
Yeah, maybe so.

359
00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:44,520
He had just seen it as a career
path, which may not have been.

360
00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:47,320
A lot of nurses see it as a
calling, right?

361
00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:50,640
Fall into it like I ended up
doing many, many years ago.

362
00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,160
I just happened.
Although it I wanted to do it,

363
00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,000
it wasn't like I felt like if I
didn't do it, I would never do

364
00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:59,000
anything.
And so that's where I agree with

365
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,040
you that his remarkable lack of
empathy that the doctor

366
00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:06,080
mentioned is usually completely
opposite of what a nurse is.

367
00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:07,840
So I think it's a really good
point.

368
00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,840
Back to the to what?
No worries.

369
00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:12,480
I agree.
I'm glad you brought it up.

370
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,000
In 1999, he started working at
the Oldenburg clinic.

371
00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:20,160
He was working as an A cardiac
surgery intensive care unit

372
00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:22,480
nurse.
So that's a pretty intense job.

373
00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,160
And I suspect that it would be
the beginning of his career

374
00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:31,120
because if he was born in 76,
that would be about the time he

375
00:18:31,120 --> 00:18:33,320
would graduate from a nursing
program, I would think.

376
00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:36,000
I wouldn't think he had a lot of
prior your experience.

377
00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:39,520
This unit was called Ward 211.
So he was working for a couple

378
00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,440
of years.
Nothing really came up, but in

379
00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:46,800
August of 2001, go ahead.
But going back to his need for a

380
00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,160
thrill for our listeners, the
cardiac intensive care unit is

381
00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:54,720
probably one of the most
fast-paced departments in a

382
00:18:54,720 --> 00:19:00,200
hospital, similar to the
emergency room, just not

383
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,440
necessarily as surprising as an
emergency room because you don't

384
00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:05,160
know what's coming into
emergency room and you know what

385
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:06,920
your patients have in the
cardiac ICU.

386
00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:12,120
But it is quite fast-paced.
And so I'm, I'm not surprised in

387
00:19:12,120 --> 00:19:14,440
that sense that that's the first
place he ended up.

388
00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,120
Yeah, yeah.
Well, and the only reason I'm

389
00:19:17,120 --> 00:19:19,920
surprised is that that's a
pretty intense unit to work on

390
00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:22,560
for a brand new nurse.
It's also hard to get into for a

391
00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:24,160
brand new nurse I.
Wanted to I would think.

392
00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:29,840
So and I even did some clinicals
in the ICU and they were like,

393
00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,760
yeah, right, I'll do some Med.
Surg first, right, right.

394
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:37,480
Well, and this was in 1999
though, so this was a lot later

395
00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:41,160
than when you would have done
your nursing because in 89, I

396
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,400
did Med surge, but I probably
could have gone anywhere in the

397
00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:51,360
hospital because I think nurses
at that point tended to be more

398
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:54,360
diverse than some of the nurses
I'm seeing now because we didn't

399
00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:57,480
specialize as much as nurses are
doing now, at least coming out

400
00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:03,480
of nursing school.
However, Hogel was in this

401
00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:09,120
clinic in 1999, like I said, and
until August of 2001.

402
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:11,680
Things seem to be going
reasonably well.

403
00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:13,840
No real complaints, anything
came up.

404
00:20:14,120 --> 00:20:18,400
But in August of 22,000 and one,
doctors and medical orderlies at

405
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:20,840
the hospital held a meeting.
Hogle attended it.

406
00:20:21,120 --> 00:20:24,840
The meeting was to discuss an
unusual spike in both

407
00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:28,200
resuscitation and deaths during
the previous months.

408
00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:34,520
Yes, in that case, 58% of these
incidents were found to have

409
00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:36,400
occurred while Hogle was on
duty.

410
00:20:38,120 --> 00:20:38,640
Interesting.
Oh.

411
00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:42,240
Interesting 58%.
After that meeting, Hogle called

412
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:47,080
in sick for the duration of
three weeks and during during

413
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:52,240
that time only how many two
patients in the ward had died,

414
00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:55,960
which was significantly fewer
prior to a sick leave.

415
00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:03,000
So at that point, Hogle probably
suspected that if they didn't

416
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,240
think he was the cause, I would
think that after three weeks of

417
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:10,320
leave with only two deaths, they
might then wonder for sure, say

418
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:15,080
maybe there's a connection here.
And at that point, they came up

419
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,360
with a solution.
The solution under the pressure

420
00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:21,520
by the head physician, Hogle,
was transferred to the

421
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:25,320
anesthesiology ward.
I knew it when they transferred

422
00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:31,360
bad factors that worked.
Really.

423
00:21:31,360 --> 00:21:34,880
Well, because soon the
anesthesiology ward head

424
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,840
physician became suspicious of
how Hogle was frequently present

425
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:45,480
in emergency situations.
Yeah, in September of 2002, the

426
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:47,440
clinic's head physician
confronted Hogle.

427
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:49,800
Which is interesting because a
lot of these cases that I've

428
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,080
read before, nobody really
confronted them.

429
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,240
They sort of just tried to
ignore it and hope it went away.

430
00:21:54,360 --> 00:21:59,160
Transfer them, right?
But he did confront him after

431
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,520
multiple patients under his care
had been found in life

432
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:05,640
threatening conditions for
seemingly inexplicable reasons.

433
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,040
It was suggested that he the
resigned his position at the

434
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:12,720
clinic and continue to receive
full wages for another three

435
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:14,200
months.
Or.

436
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:20,520
Transfer to the clinics
logistics unit where he would

437
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:22,520
assist in moving patients
throughout the hospital.

438
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,360
That point if he were in the
logistics clinic then he

439
00:22:25,360 --> 00:22:28,680
wouldn't That isn't we don't
have a logistics unit in most

440
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,320
hospitals I've ever worked at,
but that's what they had is

441
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,680
logistics unit.
So basically he'd be a a a

442
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,360
pusher of trolleys or
wheelchair.

443
00:22:36,360 --> 00:22:40,760
At that point, he must have
decided to resign because on

444
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,720
October 10th of 2002, he
received a reference letter

445
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,040
issued by the clinic's Director
of Nursing.

446
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,680
Therein, she testified to
Hogel's.

447
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:57,160
This is what she wrote, diligent
and autonomous work ethic, as

448
00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:01,120
well as to him having acted
prudently and an objectively

449
00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:03,200
correct manner in critical
situations.

450
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,880
She also praised his devotedness
and cooperative conduct.

451
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,280
The letter concluded with
overall assessment of Hogel

452
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,080
having completed assigned tasks
to the utmost satisfaction.

453
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,800
OK, so this is the dude that
they think killed people.

454
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,920
This seems like that wouldn't
track to me.

455
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,200
But like you've mentioned, how
many stories have you heard of

456
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:24,200
where they've just pushed them
on, pushed them on?

457
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,240
They just don't want to have to
deal with it because if they

458
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,480
admit knowing about it, they
would have to have penalties.

459
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,080
The hospital liable have
penalties.

460
00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:33,280
Exactly.
I think we've already indicated,

461
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:35,000
but what do you think of the
solution Crystal?

462
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,440
I think it's horrible.
I this is has become more of a

463
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,800
common opinion these days, but,
and in Germany this is not

464
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,400
necessarily the case, but
healthcare for profit is a crime

465
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,680
against humanity.
I imagine that the hospitals

466
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,400
still make profit in Germany.
I don't know this, of course.

467
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:56,840
I'm just saying what I think
because it seems to be the same

468
00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:00,880
code of ethics that they use
here in the US, which is get it

469
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:02,880
out of my face, get it off my
books.

470
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,120
They don't make me liable.
And because I can't think, I

471
00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:08,880
can't think of any other reason
to just transfer somebody who's

472
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:13,560
doing something so horrible that
they've concluded that that he's

473
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:15,680
doing this.
He's that they've concluded that

474
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:17,160
he's intentionally killing
people.

475
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:22,080
And to just say he's your
problem now is just horrifying.

476
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,880
It's horrifying.
It's true, and to be fair for

477
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,000
poor little sweet Hogel, he
actually was suspected of it.

478
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:30,760
They didn't know for sure.
Well.

479
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,520
Of course, but I mean they.
There seemed to be a connection.

480
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,880
Concluded a connection, and even
if it was not officially

481
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,520
announced, they said amongst
themselves, we think this guy's

482
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:44,480
killing people like he's got to
go.

483
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,400
Right.
To be fair also he really was

484
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,040
doing it.
So there was there was that

485
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,480
piece.
Well, OK, so I agree with you

486
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:56,120
that the solution was unfair at
best and also dangerous and all

487
00:24:56,120 --> 00:24:59,360
of the other things.
However, he then worked at

488
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,840
Delman Horse Clinic from 2002,
just 2005.

489
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,880
At that point, there were no
reported issues until on June

490
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:11,520
22nd of 2005, his colleagues
caught him intentionally

491
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:16,560
manipulating a patient's syringe
pump to improperly administer

492
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,000
agimiline.
I meant to look that up but I

493
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,320
can't remember.
I'm also probably saying that

494
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,040
wrong, but it's a cardiac
disruptor.

495
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,080
I don't know it's action.
I, like I said, forgot to look

496
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,960
it up, but he was improperly
administering it, was caught by

497
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:36,040
his colleagues, so fortunately
he was arrested in the summer of

498
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:37,560
2005.
That's good.

499
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,120
At least they stopped him at
that point.

500
00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:42,520
Arrested, not transferred.
Not transferred, transferred to

501
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:44,760
jail or prison.
However they do it in Germany.

502
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:51,640
What they noticed is that the
police mentioned in April of the

503
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,000
next year that they were
investigating at least 200

504
00:25:55,000 --> 00:26:01,040
deaths and these deaths took
place between 2003 and 2005.

505
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,240
We might want to mention again
that Hogle work there from 2002

506
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:11,400
to 2005 to at least 200 deaths
and they were also including

507
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:16,280
other clinics where he worked in
Oldenburg and Wilson Haven.

508
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,800
They'll have a Marvin.
There you go, that one.

509
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,680
Can you imagine at least 200
deaths?

510
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:25,720
No.
And these were deaths that were

511
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,720
suspicious and related to his
proximity.

512
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,800
I cannot I.
It just boggled my mind.

513
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,360
He was taken to court of course
because he was charged with

514
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,800
these deaths.
The amount of deaths he was

515
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:43,840
charged for would vary over the
years, but in court he admitted

516
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,160
to killing up to 30 patients
with heart medication.

517
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,320
Wow, he admitted that?
What's really interesting later

518
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,040
is what Elsa said.
It's it was noted in the article

519
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,440
from BBC that if he was found
guilty of all of the deaths he

520
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,840
would become a one one of
Germany's worst post war serial

521
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:00,040
killers.
Wow.

522
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:04,120
And that was just the first 30.
Wow, I've been in nursing for 14

523
00:27:04,120 --> 00:27:07,320
years now, almost 14 years and.
How many people have you killed?

524
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,840
I've personally witnessed 2
deaths, Andrea 2.

525
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:15,200
Right two, me too, and both were
in long term care facilities.

526
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,040
Mine too.
And for the record, I neither

527
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,760
administer medication to them
nor provided care because they

528
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:25,120
were under other people's care.
I just went in to assist anyway.

529
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:26,360
Me too.
Yeah.

530
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:28,360
Yeah, I actually had to declare
one.

531
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,600
I went in to do help with CPR on
one and then when I had to

532
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:36,200
declare as the DOI or the ADON.
So yeah, that's 22 and 14 years,

533
00:27:36,360 --> 00:27:39,480
so 200 in three years.
Right.

534
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,720
And that for the record for
listeners who aren't in the

535
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,560
medical field, that would be
more common for people to have

536
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,120
witnessed a few unless they are
in in more of the intensive care

537
00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:52,640
or emergency room experiences
because deaths will happen more

538
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:54,960
commonly there, but they're also
critical when they come in.

539
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,640
But the average nurse?
About 203 years.

540
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,200
No, it would be interesting to
know what the average nurse

541
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,960
would have had experience.
But then again it depends

542
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:05,640
hugely.
I mean I was a work.

543
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,800
Off nurse for Well, it depends
on where you are right?

544
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,840
You're going to see more deaths
in Detroit and LA than you are

545
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,480
going to see in Payson, UT,
right?

546
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:15,400
OR.
Yes, exactly.

547
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,960
Yeah, sure.
Actually, maybe not.

548
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:25,000
Bremerton.
OK maybe the Bremerton is an

549
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,120
area that comes up quite a lot
in murder podcast but not yeah

550
00:28:29,120 --> 00:28:31,280
so whatever.
Anyway, I don't live in

551
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,720
Bremerton but near so 200
deaths.

552
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:38,240
I know when I read that I was
just like Oh my gosh it's just

553
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:43,800
to be 1 of Germany's post worst
post war serial serial killers

554
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:46,800
is pretty intense and
especially.

555
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:48,680
Because the war ended in what,
1940?

556
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:53,280
I can't remember.
I'm not a war historian.

557
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:54,240
Don't come at me.
This is.

558
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:58,560
This is not a history podcast.
We will happily give you the

559
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,120
dates and somewhere approximate,
but don't hold it to us.

560
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,320
The judges at his trial in
Oldenburg District Court in

561
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,560
northern Germany said that he
had a desire to win approval.

562
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,440
The judges at Hoggle's trial in
northern Germany said that he

563
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,480
had a desire to win approval by
resuscitating patients.

564
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,200
The Hoggle gave them overdoses
of a drug that shut down their

565
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,160
cardiovascular system.
He used a variety of drugs.

566
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,200
They didn't list them all, they
just listed that one.

567
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,720
But those were the drugs he
chose and if he was on a cardiac

568
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:27,800
intensive care unit, they were
all over the place, right,

569
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:32,040
Because the drugs do have their
purpose and they have to be

570
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,080
administered correctly.
During the trial, 1 senior

571
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,880
doctor described Hogel as a
passionate medic who had made a

572
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,280
good impression on staff.
I've read other stories about

573
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,200
angels of death or in this case,
resuscitation.

574
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,000
Rambos.
I do like that one as well.

575
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,200
They usually have been well
thought a lot of by staff

576
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,360
because they were proactive,
they were go getters.

577
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,480
They a lot of nurses don't want
to come into a code.

578
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,440
They were always the first one
there later realizing because

579
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,200
they were the one that caused
it, but they were the first one

580
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,080
there.
They can look really good

581
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:07,440
upfront and then they start
either getting too cocky or

582
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,000
thinking that the never, nobody
had ever connect them or

583
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:12,600
whatever, which may be the same
thing.

584
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,880
But one of the things to note is
about 30 of the 9999 exhumed

585
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,360
bodies of former patients at the
hospital in Dillonhurst were

586
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,600
found to have heart drug
residues in a way that could be

587
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,200
explained because many of them
were in a cardiac care unit.

588
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:32,120
However, these were the ones
that they tested to see if they

589
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,240
were appropriate for the care or
if if they were of the

590
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,280
appropriate amount.
Now, depending on how far out

591
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,760
exhumation was from their death
dates, who knows how much would

592
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:43,880
have been residual, But that's a
lot.

593
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,040
That was, of course, a piece of
information that helped in his

594
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,480
conviction.
And they said that during court.

595
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,800
And the police had always said
that they assume the actual

596
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,320
number of victims that Hogle had
killed was much higher.

597
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,200
Investigators said that their
task was made harder because

598
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,040
Hogle himself couldn't even
remember how many patients he

599
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:07,040
ingest injected.
I mean, it's pretty bad if it

600
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,400
seems to me if I run around
killing people, I would like

601
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,800
know how many there were.
So but if you cracked 200 I

602
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:16,680
could see.
I would think that they would.

603
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,520
He would be like other serial
killers that want a tally and

604
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:25,680
wanted like be have something to
brag about if not anything else

605
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:27,480
in their mind right to
themselves.

606
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,080
I Who knows?
Yeah, a lot of people wondered

607
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,400
what on earth was he trying to
do and why?

608
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:35,920
Why would he have done these
things?

609
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,200
Hogle said at one point in the
trials that he did this to

610
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,680
sustain the euphoria and the
feeling of happiness that he had

611
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,080
after he had his daughter born
in 2004.

612
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:50,640
That goes back to the initial
physician saying that he had

613
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,800
that desire, that drive, that
need for the euphoria feeling.

614
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,760
And that's probably one of the
reasons why he had addiction to

615
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,960
drug and alcohol as well.
They didn't mention during all

616
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,040
of this if he had the addictive
things going on during his

617
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,400
nursing career or it almost when
I read it, it sounded like it

618
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,240
had been a historic thing, not a
current thing.

619
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,040
But maybe that's how he replaced
the euphoria was with killing

620
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,840
people.
So who knows, one of the things

621
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,680
that he also admitted later to
was have injected A severely

622
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:25,520
I'll intensive care patient with
a toxic agent during his first

623
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,280
night on duty after her his
daughter's birth.

624
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:33,640
So this was the first one that
he mentioned.

625
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,280
I don't know if it was the first
one that happened because again,

626
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:41,680
the killings were during 2003 to
2005 and that was the 2004.

627
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,920
So I don't, I don't really know
the first night on duty after

628
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,200
his daughter's birth.
So I guess his euphoria had

629
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:48,560
waned.
Short lived?

630
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,120
Yeah, Seriously.
Yeah, Oh my goodness.

631
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:56,360
Again, he had been convicted
with these of these 30 deaths.

632
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,160
Now, there was a bunch of trial
stuff that we're not going to go

633
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,360
through, but mostly it was just
people testifying.

634
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,560
A lot of people showed up as
witnesses, but only about 30

635
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:07,920
people testified.
But they all basically said the

636
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:09,440
same thing.
So I think they just got the

637
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:10,920
point.
I mean, they didn't really need

638
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,560
more people.
And a lot of people as I was

639
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,760
reading it, looking back the
other care providers and things

640
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,320
like that, some more and more
that they should have seen then

641
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:25,200
in their view, but they didn't.
Because when you are working, to

642
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,400
be fair, when you're working in
intensive care or ER, there are

643
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,680
expected deaths.
And if a person's not looking at

644
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,920
the numbers, they may not notice
that they are exceeding normal.

645
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:38,840
And many, many of these
individuals who do this sort of

646
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,880
stuff do overnight shifts.
So there's less administration

647
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,440
on shift, which a lot of us look
for going, yay, the

648
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:46,760
administration's home.
We prefer working at night.

649
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:47,440
Right?
Right.

650
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,040
I was going to say nothing
personal against administration,

651
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:55,440
but yeah, you know, it is
usually more peaceful and that

652
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:56,960
kind of thing to work a night
shift.

653
00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,760
And on the other side of that,
there are fewer staff members,

654
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,520
there are a few people watching,
there is less oversight.

655
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:08,239
And back in through even to
2005, the stops and controls

656
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:10,800
that would have controlled the
medications would have been

657
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:12,760
much, much laxer than they are
now.

658
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,360
Now, I mean, I haven't worked in
the hospital since we all of the

659
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:20,120
medical device and medication
dispensers were automatic.

660
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,080
But you have, right?
Or have you were you working

661
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:23,600
when they had all the automated
stuff?

662
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:29,880
I like that the Nexus plexus.
Yeah, it would be very difficult

663
00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:31,760
to get the wrong stuff, wouldn't
it?

664
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,600
Yeah, I would think, I mean,
actually when I was working in

665
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:40,000
the hospital, it was just
controlled substances.

666
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,280
You could get everything else
directly from the pharmacy, but

667
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:43,920
you still had to get it from the
pharmacy.

668
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:45,480
There were no drugs on the
floor.

669
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,159
And back in the olden days when
I used to work in the hospital,

670
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:51,600
everything was out.
Everything was just out.

671
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:55,280
And even the drug carts, we had
a key and we opened the boxes

672
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:59,080
and took what we wanted and.
Started nursing care in long

673
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:00,800
term care.
That's how it was.

674
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,600
Sure, everything was.
Out and the controlled

675
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,120
substances were locked up, but
the nurses had a.

676
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,720
Key so, so and if you were
smart, you didn't go home with

677
00:35:10,720 --> 00:35:12,040
it every night because that's
what I did.

678
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,040
A couple, everyone did it at
least once or twice.

679
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,280
Go like college and have to go
back to the hospital.

680
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:21,480
Well, we had two people in my
nursing program that were a

681
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,360
married couple and they ended up
working for the same hospital

682
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,240
back-to-back and they were just
fudging numbers.

683
00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:27,520
They were stealing drugs like
crazy.

684
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,720
They hadn't even licensed yet,
they hadn't tested.

685
00:35:30,720 --> 00:35:35,040
They were just there and they
ended up getting banned from

686
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,480
being nurses for forever because
of and they also went to prison.

687
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,080
They they were able to go
back-to-back because it was just

688
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:44,120
a drug drawer and they took it
out and they said their count

689
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,320
was this.
They had taken the meds out for

690
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,280
patients, but the patients
weren't getting their meds.

691
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,160
So kind of like this Hogel dude,
all of a sudden everybody was

692
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,720
having a lot more pain and they
noticed it was only on their

693
00:35:53,720 --> 00:35:57,400
shifts because they were taking
the meds and it was easy to do.

694
00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:58,560
I mean, all of us could have
done it.

695
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:00,960
We could have pocketed whatever
we wanted because it was easy.

696
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,960
Now it's not for that.
And that would have been in 90

697
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,920
for me, it would have been 92
ish.

698
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:13,040
This was between 9990 and 2005.
The controls were much more LAX.

699
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,560
But obviously things had to
change for reasons like this.

700
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,560
Also, you know, for the Peace of
Mind of the nurses, I would

701
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,720
rather have strong controls
because then I know I haven't

702
00:36:23,720 --> 00:36:27,840
made errors or mix things up or
anything like that too.

703
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,160
It's a lot easier to avoid
errors when there's a lot of

704
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,160
controls.
And now you go into the hospital

705
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,280
on at least here in America,
everything is checked about 4000

706
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:36,200
times.
What's your name?

707
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,600
OK, let me see your bed or your
your bracelet and you know,

708
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:41,840
everything's scanned and checked
and checked, which is great

709
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:43,760
because I know then I don't have
to worry about it.

710
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:49,720
It was interesting to see that
he was able to easily do this

711
00:36:49,720 --> 00:36:53,720
medication administration.
Hoga was convicted of these 30

712
00:36:53,720 --> 00:36:57,640
deaths and so he was already
serving life for two of these

713
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:01,280
murders that it happened again,
like I said, administering the

714
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:03,040
lethal dose of heart
medications.

715
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,280
During the court, prosecutor
said that he Hoga attack

716
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,400
patients in order to impress
colleagues by subsequently

717
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:13,720
trying to avoid them, which is
where the German One of his

718
00:37:13,720 --> 00:37:17,760
colleagues told the German
newspaper that he was given the

719
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,040
nickname of resuscitation Rambo.
And it's because the way he

720
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,560
pushed everyone aside when
patients needed to be

721
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:24,880
resuscitated.
So he went in there.

722
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,080
He just Ramboed in as we
mentioned that wasn't that would

723
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:29,480
have been common for most
nurses.

724
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:31,840
I mean, most nurses would, of
course, do what they needed to,

725
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,960
but most nurses that I know of
at least, are just happy not to

726
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:37,720
have to do it.
Not because we're not willing,

727
00:37:37,720 --> 00:37:39,720
but because that means
something's gone very badly,

728
00:37:39,720 --> 00:37:42,680
whether it's the person's own
personal health systems, which

729
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,360
is usually the case or an error
or something like that.

730
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,040
The last day of one of his
trials, he's had a couple of

731
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:50,800
trials because he did some bad
stuff and they found more and

732
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,520
more as time went on.
He said that he asked the

733
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,360
families of his victims for
forgiveness of his horrible

734
00:37:57,360 --> 00:37:59,800
acts.
He said, quote, I would like to

735
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,360
sincerely apologize for
everything I did to you over the

736
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,000
course of Pierce.
You heard that.

737
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:06,040
I see your face.
Our listeners can't see your

738
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,440
face right now.
But how do you feel about what

739
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:10,000
he said?
Do you think he was being honest

740
00:38:10,240 --> 00:38:13,560
or?
No, since people people without

741
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:19,080
empathy don't apologize and mean
it, I think that he was probably

742
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,760
advised to apologize.
Probably.

743
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:26,000
Honestly, this is my guess and I
don't have the facts, but that

744
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,120
he was hoping it would reduce
his sentence or, you know, do

745
00:38:30,240 --> 00:38:32,200
give him some leniency in some
way.

746
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,560
And I just, I, no, I don't
believe it.

747
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:40,880
And I, I hope that whoever it
was aimed at doesn't believe it,

748
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,360
Not because I want them to have
more pain, but because don't

749
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:48,520
give him the satisfaction of
thinking that he's given you

750
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,640
some sort of closure with this.
That would be my my thoughts.

751
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:56,360
Yeah, and I agree because, like
you said, he, I'm sure had an

752
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,560
ulterior motive.
And even people who are

753
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:01,560
sociopaths learn what you're
supposed to do.

754
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,240
And they were supposed to
apologize because they were

755
00:39:05,240 --> 00:39:08,960
supposed to feel bad.
Chances are he didn't.

756
00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:12,200
But ultimately, Hogle had been
accused of murdering 100

757
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,920
patients in the northern cities.
Hearst and Oldenburg police

758
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,320
believe he may have killed far
more, but the cremation of

759
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:20,400
bodies had destroyed any
possible evidence.

760
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,680
These hundred patients, they
felt fairly sure we're connected

761
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:25,640
to him because of the air
quotes.

762
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,360
Coincidence of him being during
these events or working in the

763
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,800
same facility.
He ultimately confessed to 55

764
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,480
murders.
He was convicted ultimately for

765
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:38,240
85.
Wow.

766
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,520
As mentioned in the article
earlier, but he didn't remember

767
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,320
how many he killed.
I just might go, for heaven's

768
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:51,680
sakes.
Gee, was it 55 or 300?

769
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,600
Gosh, I don't know.
But I remember to pick up my

770
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:56,840
laundry last week from the dry
cleaner, right?

771
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,880
That I don't remember which.
To me, when I thought about

772
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,160
that, I thought OK.
Was he?

773
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:06,800
You know, you hear about things
like fugue states where people

774
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,640
do things and don't remember it.
Could he have been in a fugue

775
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,080
state?
There's no evidence that he was.

776
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:13,440
I mean you.
Know no, there's not.

777
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,720
Brought that up.
And a fugue state is usually

778
00:40:16,720 --> 00:40:19,600
related to some trauma.
The way I've read it, it's

779
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:21,720
you're in a fugue state because
you're in a trauma.

780
00:40:21,720 --> 00:40:24,640
A fugue state usually means I
don't have any consciousness

781
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:27,440
about where I am, what I'm
doing, and if I if I do

782
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,120
something, I certainly won't
remember it.

783
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:31,640
That is not scientific
explanation of it, but that's

784
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:35,000
kind of the way I remember it.
So if you want to look more up

785
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,000
on fugue states, dear listeners,
please feel free.

786
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,960
But but there was no indication,
as you mentioned, that he had

787
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:45,360
any altered, altered
consciousness or anything like

788
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:48,560
that.
He just had various mental

789
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:53,360
health issues that created this
need, if you will, in his own

790
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,240
mind when this court case went
through.

791
00:40:56,240 --> 00:41:00,200
And I didn't see how long the
first one went through went, you

792
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:02,440
know, how long it took, whether
these were really lengthy.

793
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:06,040
And I imagine that if there were
30 witnesses in the first one,

794
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:11,400
that would take a while because
most witnesses will at least

795
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:13,840
have been on stand for a while,
and then all the other stuff

796
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:15,720
that happened.
So I can't imagine these court

797
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,480
trials took any less than a few
weeks.

798
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:22,400
Judge, why didn't I not have
these names to you beforehand,

799
00:41:23,240 --> 00:41:26,720
Judge Beerhunman?
I'm.

800
00:41:27,240 --> 00:41:29,720
Sorry listeners, I do not speak
German.

801
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:34,720
When this judge, Judge B
delivered the sentence of his

802
00:41:34,720 --> 00:41:37,120
1st Court Bjorman.
Thank you.

803
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:42,960
Bjorman had delivered the
sentence to Hogle in his first

804
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,720
trial.
He, the judge expressed regret

805
00:41:45,720 --> 00:41:49,560
that the court had not been able
to, quote, lift the fog for many

806
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,920
grieving relatives.
The judge described Hogle's

807
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:54,960
killing spree as
incomprehensible.

808
00:41:55,320 --> 00:42:00,480
Them pretty strong words because
judges just don't always say how

809
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,520
they feel and even going to this
degree of saying it's

810
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,480
incomprehensible seems pretty
strong to me.

811
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:09,600
I'm sure he would have liked to
have said more, but I I feel

812
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,640
like they're probably restricted
by decorum at best.

813
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:17,720
Reporter Jenny Hill in Berlin
for the BBC says that the case

814
00:42:17,720 --> 00:42:22,040
had shocked Germany, not least
because senior staff at the two

815
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:25,840
hospitals are accused of having
turned a blind eye to unusually

816
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:30,520
high mortality rates.
Like we talked about before,

817
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:34,920
they the evidence was there,
they had the meeting, the one

818
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:40,520
doctor confronted him and yet
his reference was what would

819
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:45,520
look like pretty stellar, right?
We talked a little bit about

820
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:47,200
that too.
It would be really interesting

821
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:49,760
to hear from our listeners to
see how they feel about that.

822
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:53,800
This is a hot button item for
lots of reasons, not the least

823
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:58,800
of which is the fact that this
could bring up some concern from

824
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,080
people about can we trust our
staff?

825
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:04,640
Can we trust that the people
working for us are actually good

826
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:08,240
at what they do and honest and
all of those kinds of things?

827
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:12,960
In this case, his killing spree
was stopped again in 2005 when

828
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:16,360
he was given unprescribed
medication to a patient.

829
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:20,000
I'm not sure how this even
happened or was noticed.

830
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:23,560
They saw him doing the syringe.
These colleagues and I don't

831
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:26,440
know under what scenario or what
circumstances it was.

832
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:28,920
I mean, did they just walk into
a patient room or was he in a

833
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:31,080
hospital setting?
I mean a surgical setting or

834
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,920
something like that because he
was working for anesthesiology

835
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:35,920
at that time.
It didn't mention in the

836
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:39,080
articles I read what exactly the
setting was.

837
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:42,440
But the thing that I thought
about is those people that

838
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:47,960
reported him were very brave,
because a lot of times when I've

839
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:52,120
I've seen her to read stories
like this, the people who bring

840
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:55,560
it up are not always considered
good.

841
00:43:55,600 --> 00:44:00,160
I mean, a whistleblower can be
really bashed for bringing it

842
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:03,560
up.
And these people, this was in

843
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,640
their eye, in their minds.
At that point, it was probably

844
00:44:07,240 --> 00:44:10,440
the only one.
But then again, by then they

845
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:12,320
already started having an
increase in death.

846
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:13,840
So maybe they already suspected
him.

847
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,680
Maybe that's why they saw him.
Maybe they were looking.

848
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:19,160
Looking, yeah.
But the fact that they stood up

849
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:21,880
and said, listen, no, you got to
stop.

850
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:26,240
This is to me, I'm.
I'm proud of that because a lot

851
00:44:26,240 --> 00:44:28,800
of people would have said, oh,
well, maybe I didn't understand

852
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,360
it or maybe it was talking to
talk themselves out of it

853
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:32,680
somehow.
Yeah, Yeah.

854
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:38,720
But that did stop, sure, that
did stop his killings, debris.

855
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:41,960
And then at that point, like I
said, he because he's had

856
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:44,800
multiple trials at that point
for the one murder, he was

857
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:46,840
sentenced to seven years for
attempted murder.

858
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,880
I'm sorry, pardon me, I'm saying
that incorrectly.

859
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,200
He was sentenced to seven years
for attempted murder in 2008.

860
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,560
And they didn't mention in these
articles what that was about,

861
00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:00,320
but the families of his other
suspected victims pressed for

862
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:04,280
further investigation.
These are not long ago he had a

863
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:08,000
one of his second trial was
ended in 2015.

864
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:11,760
He was jailed for life.
That's also when during the

865
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:15,400
trial he confessed to the
psychiatricity killed up to 30

866
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:18,120
people and like say it's kind of
gone back and forth.

867
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:20,280
But that's when he confessed
about that.

868
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:25,240
The final investigators widened
the investigation investigation

869
00:45:25,240 --> 00:45:29,640
and they ended up exhuming a
total of 130 former patients.

870
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,560
And again, there were some that
had been cremated.

871
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:35,000
So they obviously couldn't do
anything with that.

872
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:37,720
And they were looking for
evidence of the medication that

873
00:45:37,720 --> 00:45:39,280
would have triggered cardiac
arrest.

874
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:42,640
They went through records and
records and records to see where

875
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,960
where that happened.
That's when they added the extra

876
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:50,040
50 or 55.
I guess by that point, 'cause I

877
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:52,400
think there was a total of 85 he
was convicted of.

878
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:56,520
They said that on every
incidence that they could see,

879
00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:59,480
the rates of deaths and
resuscitations had more than

880
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:02,440
doubled when hobo was on shift.
More than doubled.

881
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:06,240
Wow, can't even imagine.
When you think about how many

882
00:46:06,240 --> 00:46:09,160
other people would have been on
shift, of all manner of people

883
00:46:09,720 --> 00:46:13,040
to be able to pinpoint it to be
when Hogle was on shift and he

884
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:14,800
was the only one that they
associated with.

885
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:18,160
Because it wasn't like they
said, Hogle and a janitor, you

886
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:21,360
know, work together and kill 300
people or whatever it was.

887
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:24,480
And I mean, janitors don't
usually administer medication,

888
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,120
but that would be a problem.
Possibly.

889
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,800
But the fact that they can
narrow it and point to him

890
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:34,520
specifically makes it super
obvious.

891
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:38,720
Yeah, true.
Just I can't even, I just can't

892
00:46:38,720 --> 00:46:43,720
even wrap my mind around what
could have happened.

893
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:46,600
Me neither.
I've never looked at a patient

894
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:50,520
and thought to myself, I'd like
to kill them or I'd like to

895
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:52,840
almost kill them and rescue
them.

896
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:56,160
That's unfathomable to me.
Unfathomable I.

897
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:59,800
Literally had a patient ask me
to kill him because yeah, he had

898
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:04,040
been a prisoner and tried to
commit suicide by jumping off

899
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:06,840
the top bunk in the prison,
which is top of two.

900
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,360
So he had what, 6 feet maybe?
And it didn't work.

901
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:15,920
But he became a quadriplegic.
He said he couldn't do anything

902
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:17,600
but speak.
He couldn't even move his head

903
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:19,600
independently.
He could move his eyes and he

904
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:22,520
could speak, but he was vented
and everything else he said,

905
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,720
please just kill me.
Obviously I wasn't interested if

906
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:29,600
Hogle had been there, but who
knows?

907
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:34,640
After his conviction in 2015,
the state's attorney's office

908
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:37,200
pressed for obstruction of
justice charges against his

909
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:39,840
chief prosecutor.
Which I thought was interesting

910
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:45,200
because what they said is the
prosecutor had allegedly not

911
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:48,440
acted on conclusive evidence
incriminating Kogel.

912
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:53,200
Because of that, Hogle was not
arrested for even longer.

913
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:56,800
And so that's probably where
that 2008 attempted murder came

914
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,760
in.
Because while he was stopped in

915
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:05,360
2005 and taken to jail, he must
have been let back out and then

916
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:07,760
was still working.
Which is mind boggling alone.

917
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:12,240
If you've gotten a person that's
been arrested for witnessed

918
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:14,720
attempted murder, it seems like
you wouldn't want to hire him.

919
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:17,000
Maybe that's closed, I don't
know.

920
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:19,960
I don't.
Either the case ended up being

921
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:22,800
dismissed for I don't know what
reason.

922
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:26,960
They didn't really say the state
attorney's office officially

923
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:32,440
objected to the decision to this
dismiss, but it still was

924
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:34,200
dismissed from the higher
courts.

925
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:37,960
That's another whole ball of wax
to go down that course.

926
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:43,880
But then also if we think about
the administrators who didn't

927
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:47,920
report even though they knew
that the cases of death were

928
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:51,080
higher.
I think that we need to rethink

929
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:56,240
in a lot of civilized societies,
we need to rethink how we

930
00:48:56,240 --> 00:48:59,800
administer healthcare.
That's what I think, because I

931
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:03,240
believe that particularly
because they're, we're talking

932
00:49:03,240 --> 00:49:06,120
about multiple people, not just
one person, that there was

933
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:10,720
incentive for them not to report
it, to keep their mouth shut, to

934
00:49:10,720 --> 00:49:14,160
turn a blind eye.
And when we're incentivizing

935
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:17,920
that we've got a problem.
You know, what should be

936
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:21,920
incentivized is the opposite.
Find it, root it out, report it.

937
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:22,920
You know what I mean?
Stop it.

938
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:26,400
And it makes me sad, frankly,
that that's the state that we're

939
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:29,160
in when it comes to people's
lives in their health care.

940
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:31,480
Right.
And it's true, because I know

941
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:35,920
that there were a couple of
providers that I knew of in a

942
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:38,880
state I used to live in that
were poor.

943
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:42,720
People knew they were poor
providers, but there was nothing

944
00:49:42,720 --> 00:49:46,520
we could do about it.
He had been reported, but it was

945
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:48,680
never egregious enough to stop
him.

946
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:54,400
Yeah, I know a neurosurgeon that
was poor in 1995.

947
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:56,320
He's still practicing.
OK, let me rephrase that.

948
00:49:56,320 --> 00:50:00,240
He was a poor surgeon in 1995,
and I think he was 100 years old

949
00:50:00,240 --> 00:50:02,720
then, and he's still practicing
today.

950
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:05,880
And obviously being hyperbolic
about him being 100, but he was

951
00:50:06,240 --> 00:50:11,680
an elderly gentleman in 1995 and
a poor surgeon in 1995, and he's

952
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:13,560
still practicing today and doing
surgeries.

953
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:17,000
And I hear anytime I bring him
up to my nurse friends, they all

954
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:20,520
immediately go into like, Oh my
gosh, that guy, why?

955
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:23,960
He's still practicing and we try
not try not send anybody to him.

956
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:26,520
But you know, he gets the luck
of the draw sometimes in

957
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:28,280
emergencies.
That's how my ex-husband ended

958
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:30,960
up having him was he was the
neurosurgeon on call.

959
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:35,280
The fact that his reputation in
the community is that he's a bad

960
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:39,480
surgeon who you know you
wouldn't wish your worst enemy

961
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:43,240
to, to be cut open by him, and
he's still practicing, That's

962
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:45,760
horrifying.
Horrifying.

963
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:49,680
It is, and I think it's a multi
level problem as we kind of

964
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:52,120
discussed.
But one of them, I think, is

965
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:54,320
that people are afraid of being
wrong.

966
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:58,440
So what if they say something?
And then what if they're doing

967
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:00,520
surgery and they make an error
and then what?

968
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:02,440
You know, where, where's the
risk?

969
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:05,960
And, and granted, that's a poor
way to go, but it's really kind

970
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:08,360
of true.
And I know that right now,

971
00:51:08,720 --> 00:51:11,200
people used to think the doctors
made buckets and buckets of

972
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:12,880
money.
And yes, they still have a,

973
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:17,000
however, their costs are so high
when they talk about malpractice

974
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:19,560
insurance and things like that,
they're so astronomical that

975
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:23,360
between that and their school
bills, they make hardly anything

976
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:25,200
in the first, I think it was
like 15 years.

977
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:27,360
Yeah.
And they to practically be a

978
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:30,600
barista and make more.
And it's hard to know that that

979
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:33,600
has to happen.
They have to work for 10-15

980
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:35,400
years just to break even
basically.

981
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:37,920
That's got to be devastating.
And then to think that there's

982
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:41,720
any chance that there's somebody
that they might think is going

983
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:45,320
poorly and this so they don't
own report, then what?

984
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:48,120
But then also that means the
system's broken in other ways

985
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:50,400
too.
So if if someone's reported, as

986
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:52,480
you said, it's not, there's no
incentive to do it.

987
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:56,640
And instead of having it as a
teaching experience, it becomes

988
00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:59,520
something much different.
I know that when I worked a

989
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:02,040
staff developer in our long term
care facility, not the one we

990
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:05,680
worked out together, I would go
and walk, work the floor with

991
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:07,320
our nurses and they're like,
what do you want?

992
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:08,680
Why are you here to investigate
us?

993
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:10,560
And I said, well, I'm here to
educate you.

994
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:13,440
I'm not here to report you.
I'm not here to fire you.

995
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:18,360
If I start to train you and then
you don't respond or you fight

996
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:20,560
it or whatever, then we have
another conversation.

997
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:22,400
But I only want you to be
better.

998
00:52:22,720 --> 00:52:24,320
I'm not trying to do anything
else.

999
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:27,280
I'm just trying to fill the gaps
because there, if there's a

1000
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:29,760
problem, we want to fix it.
We don't want to bury it.

1001
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:32,440
But I think that's not how the
most of the system works.

1002
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:35,280
Mostly people feel like they
have to be defensive so that

1003
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:38,200
they can fight for whatever they
need to fight for.

1004
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:44,160
And that is part of the problem.
So I like to think that the way

1005
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:49,000
things happen there in Germany
and in our hospitals are

1006
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:51,240
improving.
And there are some ways I know

1007
00:52:51,240 --> 00:52:53,480
of here in the United States
hospitals like we talked about

1008
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:59,240
the medical, the machines to, to
distribute the medications and

1009
00:52:59,240 --> 00:53:01,680
various supplies.
And in some ways, I know I've

1010
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:03,800
heard a lot of nurses going,
it's so hard to get everything I

1011
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:06,120
need because I have to punch in
the code and I have to go get it

1012
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:08,000
and I have to, you know, do all
of that.

1013
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,880
And I get it.
I get it when a person is really

1014
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:13,840
short staffed and they feel like
all they're doing is wasting

1015
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:19,840
time to get supplies, I get it.
However, to me, as I mentioned,

1016
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:24,840
I would rather have many stops
and checks before I can

1017
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:28,040
administer the wrong medication
or do something like that

1018
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:31,200
because I want to be good at
what I do.

1019
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:34,920
I want to be correct.
I had a a nurse that I was doing

1020
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:37,200
preceptorship with.
She was the new nurse.

1021
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:41,600
I was the preceptor and she had
she had drawn up 3 syringes of

1022
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:43,640
something.
I'm like OK here let me tell you

1023
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:47,320
this.
Almost never will you have more

1024
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:49,600
than one syringe of a
medication.

1025
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,360
So either you've got the wrong
dose or the wrong syringe.

1026
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:55,480
Syringe, right?
So if you're drawing up more

1027
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:58,520
than one of something, that is a
huge red flag.

1028
00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:01,080
But that was also back in the
day.

1029
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:04,680
And so we didn't we didn't have
as many checks and balances, but

1030
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:06,880
that's one of my one of the
things my nursing instructor had

1031
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:08,600
told us.
If you're having multiple of

1032
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:11,920
anything, you have something
wrong most often.

1033
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:14,400
Yeah, and now it's much more
difficult.

1034
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:16,760
But what do you think?
What kinds of things do you

1035
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:19,920
think could help prevent a
situation like this again?

1036
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:24,360
I'm still in a clinical setting.
When the federal mandate came

1037
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:28,240
down that we had to have
electronic charts by some year,

1038
00:54:28,240 --> 00:54:31,320
I don't remember what year it
was, but so I was deep in the

1039
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:35,440
transition from handwritten
charts to to digital charts.

1040
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:41,240
And I also saw a lot of now you
have to scan a bunch of things

1041
00:54:41,240 --> 00:54:43,880
before you can get a medication
or before you can get a gauze or

1042
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:45,240
before you can get a whatever,
right?

1043
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:48,000
So, so I saw a lot of that
transition and a lot of the

1044
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:50,040
complaints of how many more
steps it was.

1045
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:52,200
And you know how it sucked and
they wish they didn't have to do

1046
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:54,520
it because they liked the
freedom of just being able to

1047
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:57,120
grab a medication and give it to
their patient.

1048
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:01,160
But I agree, I'd rather have the
checks and balances so that I

1049
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:04,600
don't make a medication error.
When I was working in long term

1050
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:09,520
care facility, we had a nurse.
She gave 10 milliliters of

1051
00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:11,520
insulin instead of 10 units of
insulin.

1052
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:16,920
Oh.
Yeah, so and it was actually the

1053
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:19,240
exact same thing.
It was like, do you, do you

1054
00:55:19,240 --> 00:55:21,440
really think you've been, you
know, how long you been giving

1055
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:23,680
insulin for?
Do you really think that this

1056
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:27,200
syringe full of insulin is a
good idea?

1057
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:31,240
Fortunately, we were able to
reverse that and the the patient

1058
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:33,960
survived.
But I mean, that's lethal.

1059
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:38,520
And wouldn't it be nice if you
had to, if you did have to scan

1060
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:42,360
that and scan the bracelet and
scan your badge so that it can

1061
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:45,320
flag you and say this is not
what you're supposed to be

1062
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:49,320
giving this patient and stop you
and, and hopefully even better

1063
00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:50,760
not give you the medication,
right?

1064
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:53,720
You ask and it says, no, no, no,
no, wrong.

1065
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:58,000
You know, I would much rather
that for myself as a nurse and

1066
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:00,720
for myself as a patient.
Exactly.

1067
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:03,680
And and I and like many things,
it is a pain.

1068
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:07,800
It is a pain.
It is, however, yeah, However,

1069
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:10,200
as you mentioned, we both
mentioned that it it's going to

1070
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:12,600
have an ultimately better
outcome.

1071
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:16,880
And there are other parts of the
process that could be shifted to

1072
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:20,640
make things easier so that these
delays don't make somebody's job

1073
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:22,920
super hard like having the right
patient load and things like

1074
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:27,000
that.
However, even more to me, if I

1075
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:30,360
have a super duper patient load,
I'm going to want even more

1076
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:32,600
checks and balances because that
means I'm probably a little

1077
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:34,400
frazzled.
That means I'm probably tired.

1078
00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:35,960
That means I'm probably running
around.

1079
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:38,920
I've had patients again, we keep
mentioning long term care

1080
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:42,960
facility patients, listeners,
because these are a whole sort

1081
00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:46,040
of different ball game.
But one of the facilities I

1082
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:49,640
worked in, I asked Mr. Smith if
he was Mr. Smith and he said

1083
00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:52,960
yes.
Well, he wasn't right, but I

1084
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:54,640
didn't know it was my first
shift.

1085
00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:57,240
I had no idea he wasn't Mr.
Smith, and I also didn't know he

1086
00:56:57,240 --> 00:57:00,360
didn't know he wasn't Mr. Smith.
When you have things like that

1087
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:02,840
or you have maybe even a psych
unit or something, which is

1088
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:05,080
probably politically incorrect
to say now, it's probably

1089
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:07,440
something else.
However, if you have something

1090
00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:11,360
where someone is altered for
whatever reason, that's my

1091
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:15,400
safety as a provider to have
those checks and balances.

1092
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:19,080
So hopefully this sort of thing
wouldn't happen as much.

1093
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:22,760
I know that the cases that I've
heard of where these angels of

1094
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:27,240
death or, or Rambo resuscitator
aren't as easy to happen because

1095
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:30,440
there's a lot more process that
people have to go through.

1096
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:34,440
But I haven't heard of any of
these in the recent, like say 10

1097
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:35,800
years.
Well, that's not even.

1098
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:38,200
Yeah, that's true because he
stopped killing in 2005.

1099
00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:40,960
So that's more, but his his
trial was more.

1100
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:42,760
His last trial was more recent
than that.

1101
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:47,920
Hopefully this means that these
systems are better and that that

1102
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:48,880
are working.
Yeah.

1103
00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:52,480
And that fewer people will have
option and opportunity to do

1104
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:55,080
this sort of thing.
But many of the people that have

1105
00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:59,800
had these Angel of death ideas
have worked in facilities that

1106
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:03,360
death was expected, like learn
long term care, intensive care,

1107
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:06,840
emergency and things like that,
less than emergency rooms

1108
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:09,160
because there's so many people
watching the process.

1109
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:13,600
But in these other areas where
they can have access to critical

1110
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:17,240
patients that it's not hugely
surprising that they die.

1111
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:22,200
Hopefully this is one of the
last cases that in time, you

1112
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:26,480
know, in recent past that is a
big case and hopefully people

1113
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:30,160
can't do it anymore.
But I found this case just

1114
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:34,520
really interesting because AI
had never heard of it and and

1115
00:58:34,520 --> 00:58:37,320
the fact that he did so many
and.

1116
00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:41,080
It was so recent.
Yeah, in 2005 like.

1117
00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:44,480
The 70s or even the 19th
century.

1118
00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:47,960
Right, right.
And unfortunately, looking back,

1119
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:50,800
2005 is 20 years ago.
So it's been a while.

1120
00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:54,200
However, it seems very recent to
me anyway.

1121
00:58:54,760 --> 00:59:01,080
But yeah, so I really found this
this really, really interesting

1122
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:03,640
thing to read about and
fascinating on so many different

1123
00:59:03,640 --> 00:59:06,440
levels.
And so I was glad to be able to

1124
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:08,200
find it.
Awesome.

1125
00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:11,160
That was a great story.
I mean, it was a terrible story,

1126
00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:12,400
but you told it well.
Thank you.

1127
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:16,160
Thank you.
And we'll do something else that

1128
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:21,840
is either medical mayhem,
mystery or murder coming up next

1129
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:23,280
time.
All right, if you've made it

1130
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:25,920
this far, clearly you like a
little mayhem with your

1131
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:28,000
medicine.
Or you just enjoy hearing us

1132
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:29,840
ramble about weird medical
mysteries.

1133
00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:31,720
Either way, we'd love you for
it.

1134
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:34,600
So hit that follow or subscribe
button wherever you're

1135
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:36,560
listening.
And toss us a rating or review

1136
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:39,560
while you're at it.
Helps other curious weirdos find

1137
00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:42,240
the show.
And we know there are a lot of

1138
00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:44,360
you out there.
Oh so many.

1139
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:46,760
Come join the chaos.
Thanks for listening to

1140
00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:49,880
Medicine, Mystery, mayhem, and
sometimes Murder.

1141
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:52,960
Do you have an idea for an
episode of this podcast?

1142
00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:56,280
I just want to say hi.
You can get in touch with us at

1143
00:59:56,320 --> 01:00:01,000
our M4 pod.
That's OURM

1144
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:07,520
thenumberfourpod@gmail.com.
We read every e-mail, and

1145
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:10,840
sometimes we even respond just
like real professionals.

1146
01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:15,440
Because we are.
Old friends with new twists and

1147
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:17,000
lots of body bags.

Ep. 30: I Need a Hero?

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