Ep. 36: The Roof, The Roof, The Roof is On Fire

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Welcome to M4 Medicine, mystery,
mayhem, and sometimes murder.

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I'm Andrea Marziano and RN with
35 years of experience across

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various fields.
From direct patient care in

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hospitals to home health,
geriatrics, and injury medicine,

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I face life, death, and
everything in between.

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And I'm Crystal Miller and RN
with 13 1/2 years of experience.

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My work spans home health,
Hospice, emergency care,

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geriatrics, and occupational
health.

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From the chaos of trauma based
quiet moments with patients,

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I've seen stories that defy
explanations.

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We've been friends for over 25
years and as nurses we've shared

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countless stories that have left
us and our families speechless.

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Now we're bringing those stories
and many more to you in

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medicine, mystery, mayhem, and
sometimes murder.

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Each week, we'll uncover cases
that challenge the boundaries of

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medicine, sharing the human
stories behind the science.

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From puzzling medical mysteries
to shocking real life crimes,

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we'll bring you stories that'll
leave you questioning everything

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you thought you knew while.
We're both experiencing.

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Nurses, we want to make it clear
we're not here to give medical

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advice.
This podcast is about

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storytelling, education and
exploration, not diagnosing or

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treating medical conditions.
This is medicine, mystery,

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mayhem and sometimes murder.
Let's dive in.

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Hey Crystal, how are you doing?
I'm doing OK, how are you?

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I'm also doing OK.
Tis the season for congestion I

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suppose.
Yeah, tis the season for being

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sleepy all the time too.
Just tis the season anyway.

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Hey, I wanted to tell you I've
been having some interesting

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events because we're planning a
family reunion and planning a

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family.
We're planning a family.

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Wow.
Yeah, Yeah.

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And the family happens to be
mine, but we're going to do a

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family reunion.
My dad decided a month or so ago

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that he wanted to see if we're
all interested in the family

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reunion with his adult children
and our children and our

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grandchildren.
The total event.

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Well, and there's only he only
had three children and we have

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25 people going.
So I was thinking of like family

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that there's 14 zillion children
and then another 14 zillion

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grandchildren.
But it's been such a challenge

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to find a location that A
everyone can get to and B can

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accommodate all of us.
Yeah, I'm sure.

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It's interesting because as I
was looking at the different

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places on VRBO and Airbnb and
all those things, they say they

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could accommodate 40 people, but
then they've got the beds that

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you have to have five people in
one bed.

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Or you trundle.
Beds, Yeah, yeah.

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Or mats on the floor and things.
And I'm like, that's not exactly

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what I had in mind.
But the place that we did find

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an reserved and paid for
yesterday, there's ten different

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bedrooms plus a left with bunk
beds.

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So it's pretty exciting, and
it's got a theater room and it's

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got ping, it's got a garage and
it's a beachfront property, so

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that's pretty cool.
Yeah.

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And it's in Bear Lake.
It may still be a little chilly

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when we go out there, but I
think it'll be a lot of fun and

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we've got enjoy.
A Raspberry shake for me.

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Oh, I will.
And what about the huckleberry?

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Oh, I've never had a huckleberry
shake.

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I've yeah, 'cause Huckleberry's
Berry.

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Huckleberry's gosh.
Huckleberry is Berry, Berry,

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Berry.
Yes, and it's very common in

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Idaho and we'll be in the Idaho
part of Bear Lake, just just

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over the border.
We have huckleberries here

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actually in Washington, which I
hadn't realized.

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We also have have a lot of
different berries that go around

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here in the winter and the Nope.
Gosh.

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Are you Andrea?
Are our brains working well

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enough to record this today?
Absolutely.

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Why would it be any different
than usual?

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All right, we'll give it a go.
All of our listeners who are

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loyal, please remain loyal.
Yes.

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Our lovely listeners.
Goodness.

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Well, today we are going to talk
about the Cleveland Clinic X-ray

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fire of 1929.
I've never.

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Heard of this?
That's exciting.

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It is.
And when I first started looking

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at it and looking at the
different sources, I thought,

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oh, that's not really enough
information to talk about for

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any period of time.
But as I kept looking, I found a

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lot more really information,
informational sites.

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I know, sorry, you weren't
supposed to notice that little

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flip.
Anyway, as I started to research

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further, I found much more
information.

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And some of the things that I'm
going to talk about are quotes

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I'm going to read because
they're really quite harrowing

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and the things that people
experienced.

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So my sources are the
clevelandhistorical.org site,

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the case dot EUEDU articles at
Cleveland Clinic and it's

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Cleveland Clinic disaster
themagazine.clevelandclinic.org

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and this was their Centennial
article and it was titled Grief

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would be defeat.
One of the doctors said that if

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they just if it had succumbed to
grief, then it would be defeat

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in the whole situation.
Sounds intense.

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Oh my gosh.
The final article with that was

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newyorktimes.com.
It's titled Poison Gas Kills 100

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in Cleveland Clinic Explosion.
It was actually more than 100,

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and we'll talk about that a
little bit of time here.

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The incident happened on
Wednesday, May 15th of 1929, and

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it was just a regular day in the
Cleveland Clinic.

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The way I read it, it looked
like it had both clinic offices,

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like many hospitals do.
They had clinical offices in the

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hospital itself.
There had been a pipe in the sub

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basement that had been leaking
steam because, you know, a steam

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will be running through the
hospitals at that time.

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It would have probably been heat
primarily, but also for going to

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the line laundry and and taking
care of other sorts of issues.

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But there had been a leaky steam
pipe in the sub basement and

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this basement had been converted
from a coal bin into a storage

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room for the hospital's X-ray
film.

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And one of the things when I
read that statement, I thought,

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gosh, I wonder if the conversion
of the room had anything to do

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with the volatility of the film
in the room itself.

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Because I sent some pictures to
us in our chat, which I'm hoping

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you'll put in the show notes,
but I can't put pictures.

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In the show notes, I we're going
to have to figure out another

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way to do that.
Probably a probably a Patreon

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actually.
OK.

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Well, anyway, listeners, I'm
sorry to hear that because I

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wasn't sure, but one of the
pictures in the research that I

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did had what was the coal room,
and I wondered if there was any

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coal left, any debris of coal,
because it's very hard.

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Even if they got the large
pieces, I would be really

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surprised if they worked hard
enough to get all the dust and

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everything, and that can become
quite combustible as well.

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Reading on later, it sounds like
that may not have been as much

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of A contributor as I thought
perhaps it would be, but it was

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a thought I had because it seems
like that would add to the

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volatility altogether.
Anyway, the steam fitters name

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was, I loved his name, Buffery
Boggs.

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Wow.
Yeah, it is a cool name.

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Buffery Boggs.
He was trying to close the steam

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leak, but when he went in there,
he encountered clouds of thick

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smoke that were already pouring
from the exposed pipe.

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That was weird because it was
supposed to be a steam pipe.

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Well, he tried.
He looked at it, and he realized

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that there was a fire going, so
he tried to put it out.

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He and an assistant custodian
were working on this, but they

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couldn't.
They couldn't put it out, so

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they tried to escape, and what
they experienced was the first

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of several explosions.
What happened for them, though,

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is it knocked them both through
a basement window, which allowed

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them to scramble to safety.
Oh my.

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Goodness, I know.
I was just sure that he would

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have been smithereens.
But no, just by whatever person

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wants to call it luck, fate,
whatever, they were thrown out

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the window and I would imagine
they still sustained some

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injuries, but they did not die.
So that was wild.

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What happened is the smoke, the
gas that was in this room

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because of the film, then
created two more violent

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explosions.
The whole clinic was wrought.

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It practically blew off the
roof.

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There's a picture involved that
showed that the roof was gone.

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What was interesting to me is
that from the outside the

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building looked pretty much
normal because from the sides it

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looked OK, but the roof had
blown off.

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Which I thought was interesting
too because if they were in a

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sub basement to have the roof
blow off seemed really odd to

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me.
But that was part of the shaking

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of the clinic I guess and these
explosions were pretty bad.

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Problem was the explosion itself
probably wouldn't have killed

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anyone or a few people anyway.
There were no people I I saw a

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report of that were killed due
to the explosion.

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However, the explosions forced
deadly fumes at a high rate of

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pressure through the pipe tunnel
system, and the pipes ducted

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into nearly every room at every
floor on the hospital almost

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immediately.
So that was the problem because

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the smoke was, they said it was
yellowish brown.

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It also got into all the major
stairways between each floor.

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And what happened is that caused
the trapping of 225 occupants of

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the hospital at that moment, and
many of them had immediate death

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from this cloud of yellowish
brown smoke.

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The pressure from these
explosions caused the walls to

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bulge and windows to burst all
over the place.

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There was one picture that
showed a room, an office room.

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It looked like the ceiling was
bulged down.

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It was like so.
Strange like sucks like

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suctioning being suctioned down.
You know, maybe I actually

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considered it coming from the
other direction, but what you're

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saying may have made more sense
because it looked like I'd been

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sucked down, like there was the
middle of it and just kind of

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bulged.
It was very odd.

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I did not include that in our
pictures.

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It was, it was fascinating.
Many of of the people at the

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time of the explosion were in
bed because they were in

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hospital.
Because they were patients.

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Patients.
And there were people in

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operating rooms, so they were on
these people were in operating

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tables.
The doctors and nurses were

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actually working.
It was just a regular work day.

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I believe it was at 10:32 or
something in the morning.

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So people were just doing the
hospital things.

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The toxic vapors caught most of
the victims by surprise because

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the way I read it, the explosion
happened, basic vapors went

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entirely through the hospital.
People were collapsing at their

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desks.
People had taken one or two

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steps to escape, then they died.
They just, people were

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everywhere, just Keeling over
and dying.

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There were 123 victims that
almost instantaneously died.

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So I guess on the one hand,
that's good news because.

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If you're going to die,
instantaneous is the way to go,

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right?
They counted the victims as 80

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visitors and patients, 43
employees and 92 people were

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injured.
That's a lot all at one time.

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Doctor John Phillips was a
founder of the clinic and head

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of the medical department.
And he died because he was in

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the clinic and he had the toxic
gas inhalation.

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A few of the victims were able
to escape the hospital by being

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rescued by firemen, policemen or
volunteers.

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Some people were able to climb
out windows at the lower floors,

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and I mean at the lower part of
the building and that sort of

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thing.
But if you can imagine too,

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these people, many of them, the
ones who were in the beds and in

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the operating room, they really
didn't have an option to depart

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easily and possibly could not.
Many of the people who had had

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any amount of the fumes ended up
dying from the toxic vapor.

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Some were soon after or
immediate there and others

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didn't die for several days.
And the ones who took a couple

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of days to do that, that was
quite.

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There was a woman called Eva
Morgan and she was a nurse, the

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Lakeside Unit.
She was working as a

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receptionist in the waiting
room.

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It had been told that she had
tried to calm the hysterical

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parents patients and she went
later to the hospital building

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and she collapsed after she
helped a few more patients.

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00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,200
And so she just collapsed and
then she died.

228
00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:10,200
It was interesting that she
could work for a while, help

229
00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,040
some people and then collapsed
and died.

230
00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:16,440
And then it was said that
William Brownlow, which was the

231
00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,560
head of the art and photography
department, had taken the day

232
00:12:19,560 --> 00:12:21,840
off.
But he returned to the clinic to

233
00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:24,760
retrieve a forgotten item and
while he was there the main

234
00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:26,760
explosion happened.
He stayed to help.

235
00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,600
He was smashing the window on
the 3rd floor to help people get

236
00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:31,920
out to a ladder.
During these rest efforts had

237
00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:34,720
breathed the fumes and died.
Jeez, please.

238
00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,040
Yeah, it's interesting.
There's a bunch of quotes that

239
00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,200
I'll tell you later.
But they also mentioned that the

240
00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,560
telephone operator, Gladys
Gibson, died at her desk with

241
00:12:43,560 --> 00:12:45,760
the cords on her switchboard
plugged into lines throughout

242
00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:47,840
the building.
She had remained at her post to

243
00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:50,040
alert the others to the
emergency, but she could have

244
00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:52,920
easily escaped through a window
just a few feet away to try and

245
00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:54,640
tell as many people so they
could get out.

246
00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,520
And if you remember, there were
225 people in the building that

247
00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:02,160
they could account for, and 123
of them died.

248
00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:05,880
Wow.
Yeah, the ratio was very high.

249
00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:08,480
There was a nearby fire company
and they were the first to

250
00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:10,400
respond.
Said that when they arrived,

251
00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,000
most of the building was
obscured by this dense yellow

252
00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:15,560
brown cloud.
It was said that that cloud

253
00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,880
stayed around the building for a
full 2 hours, that it was

254
00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:19,880
visible.
Wow.

255
00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,600
Which makes me think that the
invisible particles probably

256
00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:25,680
were there for even longer.
For longer, yeah.

257
00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:29,160
It didn't say, but I wondered
how long these particles stayed

258
00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:31,640
and where the particles once
they fell and were no longer

259
00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:33,600
gas.
I wonder if it didn't say

260
00:13:33,680 --> 00:13:36,280
anything about them still being
contaminated, like when people

261
00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:39,360
went in later to investigate,
didn't say anybody got sick at

262
00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,600
that point.
But it made me wonder why or if

263
00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,400
later maybe there were some
other consequences to that.

264
00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:47,720
When they have a big fire
explosion like that, you know,

265
00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,200
they're they send out more
alarms for more firefighters and

266
00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,960
rescue swads and stuff.
They raised ladders to evacuate

267
00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:56,760
people who were appearing at the
windows.

268
00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:59,760
And I guess there were people
that were behind closed windows,

269
00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:03,360
just tapping on the windows,
trying to get out because they

270
00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:05,680
couldn't break them.
Firefighters were trying to get

271
00:14:05,680 --> 00:14:07,760
up there.
Because they were thick?

272
00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:09,160
Or do you know why they couldn't
break them?

273
00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:12,120
They didn't say exactly, but I
wonder if it was because they

274
00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:14,600
were failing, The people were
failing already where they just

275
00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,640
didn't have the strength.
That's my thinking.

276
00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:22,640
Again, another very serious
thinking by Andrea, because

277
00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,000
there were some details that
were pretty strong and other

278
00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,560
details when I looked at the
various sources, they didn't.

279
00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:31,440
I think things happened so fast
it was hard to tell what was

280
00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:36,480
going on, but all available fire
trucks, equipment and personnel

281
00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:39,040
were sent to combat this fire in
deadly fumes.

282
00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,800
Several of the firemen were
standing on top of the hospital

283
00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,880
to try and figure out what the
damage was and other providing

284
00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:47,480
aid.
And I think at that point they

285
00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:52,000
still were really not totally
sure what the exact damage or

286
00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:54,520
problem was while they were
still trying to figure it out.

287
00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:58,120
But it did become very apparent
that the lower corridors would

288
00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,120
block the passengers.
I mean passages.

289
00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:06,600
Gosh, listeners, I'm sorry, my
brain's not working.

290
00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,000
Very.
Well, today's episode is Juice,

291
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,680
your own adventure.
You design what Andrea means.

292
00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:18,040
Choose your own, yes.
Anyway, they didn't think they

293
00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:21,840
could enter anything with
stretchers or they were having

294
00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:26,640
people go in and come out just
gagging and hacking and dying

295
00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:29,320
because they had gone into the
building for just a few moments.

296
00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,080
The chief in charge of this
whole thing was Chief Graham,

297
00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:36,600
and he ordered home motors that
were brought into the building.

298
00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:38,960
And I wasn't totally sure what
that is, but the way they

299
00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:43,240
described it, it sounded like it
was those big fans to aerate.

300
00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,760
And also they had firemen
handing hoses around.

301
00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,080
They were beating back flames.
But they were also, at one

302
00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:54,800
point, I read as part of the
story, they pushed the fume

303
00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:58,920
clouds away with these hoses.
So they essentially just knocked

304
00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:02,120
the clouds down with the water.
That way the people that were

305
00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:05,000
able to come out could walk to
the ladders.

306
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,360
They also started using
respirators, both the

307
00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:09,480
firefighters and the people.
Thank goodness.

308
00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:11,040
Gee.
Yeah, they brought them in and

309
00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,160
that's one of the things later
that we'll find out was changed

310
00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,840
on Fire Rescue trucks, because
at that point they had not yet

311
00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:19,960
started using respirators on the
trucks.

312
00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:23,280
They didn't have them.
There were some personal reports

313
00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,840
from the rescuers that I wanted
to read before I go into any

314
00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:28,920
more of the other details.
Some of the firemen were turned

315
00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,640
back by the suffocating gases,
like I said, but they finally

316
00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,320
were able to reach the top of
the building by motor controlled

317
00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:38,320
ladder. 2 of the firefighters,
Howard McAllister and Peter

318
00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,160
Rogers, said they hacked their
way through the skylight,

319
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:43,880
fastened ropes under their arm
and were lowered into the

320
00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:46,840
building.
And they had to swing themselves

321
00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:51,240
to get enough momentum to drop
inside the mezzanine rail.

322
00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:56,000
Now I'm thinking about dropping
into a building, into a

323
00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:00,120
mezzanine rail on the walkway
that circled the entire 4th

324
00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,000
floor.
So they came through roof.

325
00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:06,440
We're trying to drop onto this
walkway at the 4th floor, so if

326
00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:09,119
they had missed or fell, they
probably would have died just

327
00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:10,680
from that because that's 40
feet.

328
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,599
Anyway, they got in and they
said they found bodies packed

329
00:17:14,599 --> 00:17:16,920
deep in the space between the
elevator and the stairway.

330
00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:19,359
Yeah.
Trap door on the roof was

331
00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,160
cracked open and 15 victims were
lifted up to the roof.

332
00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:25,920
So that's they were able to get
there, but then they couldn't

333
00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:27,800
get out.
So they were the firefighters

334
00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,840
were able to crack it open and,
and lift these people out.

335
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,160
Several of the people who are
crushed at the bottom of the

336
00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:36,320
pile were dead, but a number
were still living when they were

337
00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,480
pulled out into the air.
They were unconscious, but some

338
00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:44,160
of them recovered after getting
some oxygen, both in just the

339
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,800
regular air, oxygen and then
oxygen pumped into them.

340
00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:50,600
That result wasn't very common.
Chief Graham was lowered into

341
00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:52,360
the building and he found the
crushed bodies.

342
00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:54,680
About 10 people had been
trampled to death in the

343
00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:58,640
Stampede to reach the elevator.
Yeah, it makes me think of 9/11

344
00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:02,080
9. 11 Yep, exactly, exactly
where my mind goes to.

345
00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,160
Yeah, Chief Graham said.
This is a quote.

346
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:07,400
As soon as the smoke had cleared
a little and we could see our

347
00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,240
way around, I noticed a man
sitting in a chair in the lobby

348
00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:12,600
on the second floor.
He looked as though he had just

349
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,120
started to take a short nap when
the fumes began rolling through

350
00:18:15,120 --> 00:18:17,960
the building and caught him.
It was so fast that he was

351
00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:19,320
sitting in the chair in the
lobby.

352
00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,160
Now maybe he hadn't started in
the chair in the lobby, but that

353
00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:23,560
maybe that's how far he could
go.

354
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,000
Chief Graham said it just looked
like he was taking a nap.

355
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,800
Chief Graham also said I found
one of the nurses seated in her

356
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:30,560
chair at one of the second story
offices.

357
00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:33,440
She seems to still be alive, but
we worked with her for over an

358
00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:35,400
hour without bringing her back
to consciousness.

359
00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,240
Wow.
And Fireman was noted to put on

360
00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:42,320
a gas mask and he groped his way
in and a minute he staggered out

361
00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:44,280
and he said can't make it, it's
killing me.

362
00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,400
And this was the gas mask.
He moaned and fell into the arms

363
00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:49,760
of the chief.
And then the chief was continue

364
00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:51,600
on saying they were screaming
figures on the roof.

365
00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:55,640
They were dimly seen through the
rolling orange huge fog.

366
00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:58,520
So I guess at that point it gone
from yellow to orange.

367
00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:02,600
And he said there are whales
coming from the windows, people

368
00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:04,600
wailing, automobile horns
Tooting.

369
00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,800
And spectators, he said, were
quivering in groups and they

370
00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:08,840
were gasping.
It's.

371
00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:10,720
Fascinating that spectators
came.

372
00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:12,680
You would think that they would
run away from it.

373
00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:14,600
It's odd that they all gathered
to.

374
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:18,720
It and we'll talk about that in
a second but they heard the

375
00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,360
explosion so I think that's what
drew them I.

376
00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,520
Don't know if I saw noxious
yellow and orange plumes of

377
00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:28,400
fumes and no rhyme tendon.
I don't think I'd approach.

378
00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:30,240
I mean, maybe it's a nurse.
I would right?

379
00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:32,680
That's a whole different story.
But I, I mean, I'm thinking also

380
00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:36,040
from 2026 perspective, I would
demand a respirator and I

381
00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:38,280
wouldn't go in lungs are
blazing.

382
00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:41,960
But it just seems I can
understand the desire to

383
00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:46,920
investigate an explosion, but I
can't understand sticking around

384
00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:48,960
once you see these noxious
fumes.

385
00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,240
Yeah, and actually they stopped
sticking around once they saw

386
00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:53,040
the noxious.
Fumes.

387
00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:56,400
OK.
Apparently fumes were they were

388
00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,560
visible from above, but
apparently the people on the

389
00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,200
street hadn't yet seen them.
We'll talk about a couple things

390
00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,960
that happened there when one of
the things.

391
00:20:05,360 --> 00:20:07,640
Louis Hildebrand was a fireman,
and he called him the ladder to

392
00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,160
the roof, and he said he rushed
to the skylight and looked down.

393
00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:15,960
And Graham, the chief who was in
the building already said, this

394
00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:19,920
quote was a little confusing to
me, but he said down the airway

395
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:21,360
quick.
They're trampling them to death

396
00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:23,360
down there.
I don't know if that meant he

397
00:20:23,360 --> 00:20:26,800
wanted an airway sent down.
I'm not really sure, but that's

398
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,600
what he shouted, Hildebrand said
when he looked down in the

399
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:32,880
skylight.
He said, I hope never to have to

400
00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:34,680
look at anything so horrifying
again.

401
00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,920
He said, Lord help me as far as
far down the stairway, you can

402
00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,640
see where bodies, bodies,
bodies, twisted arms and legs,

403
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:42,720
screaming, men and women, bodies
and screams.

404
00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:46,360
Yeah.
I know, I know.

405
00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:49,360
And the patients there were 30
or more of them, he said, were

406
00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:51,720
jammed so closely together
during the frenzied flight to

407
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:53,120
the roof that they couldn't
move.

408
00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,880
That is actually, if I were to
have a fear, this is the one of

409
00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:01,440
being trampled or being stuck
where I could get out

410
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:04,880
technically, but I couldn't
because I was crowded in with

411
00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:08,880
people who are panicking.
And that is that is probably my

412
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:10,240
biggest.
I don't know if it would be

413
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:12,600
considered a phobia but is
probably my biggest fear.

414
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,320
Interesting.
I've been in a lot of like, mosh

415
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,960
pits and, and I've been in
situations where crowds are not

416
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,640
necessarily panicked, thank
goodness, but definitely are

417
00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:25,080
excited and pressing.
And I've been, you know, out of

418
00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,920
control of my movement.
And I can understand your fear

419
00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:32,120
because it's really scary.
And fortunately, as you can tell

420
00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:34,920
by the very virtue of me being
here, I've never been trampled

421
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:35,800
to death.
That's true.

422
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:40,040
It happens a lot.
And there's just the, yeah, just

423
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:44,720
this panic and desire to get
anywhere but where you are.

424
00:21:45,360 --> 00:21:46,960
Yeah.
Yeah, well, and there's been

425
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:51,000
incidents even at after
Christmas sales where people

426
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,360
have been trampled to death
because people are so excited.

427
00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:56,680
To get yeah, yeah, yeah.
Wanted to get that $40 TV.

428
00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,640
Totally worth it to me.
I'd certainly helpful people to

429
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,560
get Is stumble a word I don't
know but I should be.

430
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,800
I've used it before, stumbled.
Anyway, that's what was

431
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,040
happening here.
Some of the firefighters, they

432
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:12,960
didn't quote this as a specific
person, but they were saying

433
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,760
that some of the people were
without clothes and were only

434
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:18,480
protected with sheets wrapped
around them.

435
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,520
Glass was being hurdled from the
skylights to the second floor

436
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,360
foyer.
So I imagine here you are trying

437
00:22:24,360 --> 00:22:27,800
to run out of this poisonous gas
and a fire and explosion and

438
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:30,360
you've got a sheet and glasses
raining down on you that.

439
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:34,760
That's the thing that I can't, I
can't just dismiss and walk past

440
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,200
because a glass cut is so
painful.

441
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,280
You know, you and to think of
the idea of glass raining down

442
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:42,640
on you or jumping through a
window that you've just broken

443
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,160
or any of those things or being
blasted through the window like

444
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,720
the the first two guys, I just
can't.

445
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:52,640
I can't imagine how excruciating
that must be to have so many

446
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:54,720
glass cuts.
I was working one time at the

447
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:58,640
Utah Valley Hospital in Utah.
I was a nurse probably 3 years

448
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,360
at that point, and I had a
student that was preceptoring

449
00:23:02,360 --> 00:23:05,280
with me and there had been a
very big car accident out on the

450
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,240
road just outside the hospital,
which in one hand was very

451
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,040
convenient because they could
bring them right in.

452
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:12,560
But there were multiple people
involved.

453
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:16,640
Not a ton of people, but I think
there were 5 or 6 people that

454
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:21,000
had glass injury 'cause this was
before all the windshield glass

455
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:25,240
was the pebbly stuff.
Yeah, so it was real glass.

456
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,720
A lot of people were.
It was a college town.

457
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,520
People were driving old clunkers
that were even older than the

458
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,080
day.
I know that I was working Med

459
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:38,520
surge with my students and
everyone was called to the

460
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,720
emergency room that could go.
So there were a few nurses left

461
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:43,560
on the floor.
And the people, those of us who

462
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,920
had preceptors, brought them
because the students could sit

463
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,160
and pull the glass out of.
My goodness.

464
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:52,840
Yeah.
And they were little.

465
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,960
I remember them being those
little shards and yeah,

466
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:58,360
splinters of glass.
Right.

467
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:00,880
Right.
My student looked at me because,

468
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:02,600
I mean, it wasn't technical
work.

469
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,160
It was just like, pull this out
of their skin and then we had to

470
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,960
dress the wounds and such.
It was really uncomfortable for

471
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:09,720
the people.
Of course, they all got

472
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,080
medicated, but it was still
uncomfortable and also scary.

473
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,280
We had to check eyes to make
sure they didn't have glass in

474
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:16,400
their eyes and that kind of
thing.

475
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,240
I know, I know it was, it was
rough.

476
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,600
And my student kept looking at
me like, I don't want to do

477
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,080
this.
I'm like, I get that, but do not

478
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:28,240
do 'cause you can't just leave
it some with blast injury, a lot

479
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,400
of it will work its way into the
skin and then have to work its

480
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:34,160
way out.
It's just, it's not best to dig

481
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,000
it out because if you cut it all
out, that would be even worse.

482
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,000
But anyway, that it reminded me
of that too when I was thinking

483
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:41,760
of the glass.
And also, if you think about the

484
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:43,320
fact that they don't have
clothes, they probably don't

485
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:44,840
have shoes either.
Yeah, you're.

486
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:45,360
Yep.
Oh, go.

487
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,640
Ahead.
I know that would be terrible.

488
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,560
Chief Graham also said it took
three firemen to force a way

489
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,640
down that stairway, that there
were people all in.

490
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:56,520
For 5 minutes.
We were lifting those bodies to

491
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,080
the skylight before we could
just get to the third floor

492
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:00,760
where the screaming was the
worst.

493
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:05,520
Oh God, I know.
PTSD, right?

494
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:08,360
Seriously.
I just seriously just bumped my

495
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,000
screen.
There was no reason to panic.

496
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,040
Don't panic, everything's OK.
Take a deep breath.

497
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,600
But when the firemen could get
down to the third floor, they

498
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,920
were, as I said, clamoring over
debris, clothing, scraps of

499
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,920
plaster, and they found a panic
stricken group of patients that

500
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:25,520
were trying to get down to the
first floor.

501
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,240
As in many of those situations,
they didn't know whether should

502
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,560
go up or down, but they were
trying to get to the first

503
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:32,360
floor.
The victims were being brought

504
00:25:32,360 --> 00:25:36,160
out by the firefighter and they
were coming out so fast that the

505
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,640
workers on the street and the
front lawn could hardly treat

506
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,600
them fast enough because
obviously they weren't prepared

507
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,440
to deal with.
This is going to sound like I'm

508
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:49,280
joking but I'm truly not getting
the the bodies or the people.

509
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,960
If they were alive out on the
roof, were they tossing them

510
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:53,920
down to the crowd?
How are they getting them to

511
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:55,840
people?
Well, I think they were using

512
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,400
that mechanical ladder that they
were, I've seen it before where

513
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,640
they, a firefighter will hold a
person on the ladder and then

514
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,880
it'll go down and and that kind
of thing because they had no

515
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,200
other way because this.
Was interesting as fast, right,

516
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:10,880
like they're trying to go as
fast as they can.

517
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,720
And so walking them up and down
ladders seems like it.

518
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:15,800
I mean, I guess you could do
like a conveyor.

519
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,760
So the situation, it's not a
ladder maybe and pass them down.

520
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,800
But I just yeah, yeah, I, I it's
an honest question.

521
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,680
Like I just wonder what they did
to be as expeditious as

522
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:26,240
possible.
So they brought some up, but

523
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,560
mostly they were bringing them
down because what I read is they

524
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,080
had that small group of 15
people that have gotten to the

525
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,760
top, but all the rest have been
coming down.

526
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,680
So they were coming out the
front door, these patients.

527
00:26:38,120 --> 00:26:40,400
And people go up the twin towers
also.

528
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,440
Just because they didn't know,
because they could tell things

529
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,800
were crashing below them, so
they didn't know.

530
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,240
Those things happen so fast.
I just can't even imagine.

531
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,240
Some of the patients when they
were bringing them out said, no,

532
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:55,080
I'm fine, I'm fine.
And one man said you don't have

533
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:59,240
to do a thing for me.
And a fireman was trying to give

534
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,440
him fresh air, you know, and
also give him oxygen.

535
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:03,760
He said the gas didn't bother
me.

536
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:07,320
Get the others who are dying and
this guy. 5 minutes later he

537
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,160
collapsed and died.
Wow, his body was OK.

538
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:12,840
Serious gas man.
He had been lifted into an

539
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,080
ambulance at that point because
they were still taking him and

540
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:17,760
he was dead before he reached
the ambulance.

541
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,440
It was crazy.
There was a report that man

542
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:25,480
named Paul Rokermore of Dallas,
TX was an X-ray salesman in the

543
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:26,960
clinic at the time of the
explosion.

544
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,400
He was able to get out
unassisted.

545
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,440
He turned it once and he was
helping the firemen.

546
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,080
One of the rescue, Scott said.
You better get to a hospital.

547
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:35,480
You don't know what the gas can
do.

548
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,080
Paul worked for a little while
helping people.

549
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,120
Then he went and presented
himself to the hospital because

550
00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:44,120
he was told to.
He said I'm here and I'm here

551
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,440
for treatment.
He was laughing about it because

552
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,720
he thought he was fine.
It's really 10 minutes later, he

553
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:50,800
was dead.
Oh yeah, it's.

554
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:52,120
Crazy.
You know what the gas was.

555
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,240
Yeah, we'll talk about that in a
couple of minutes, OK.

556
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,760
It's hard because this was
before there were regulations

557
00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:59,440
and rules about pretty much
anything.

558
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,560
And this was a motivator
experience to make some rules.

559
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,880
But the largest number of people
killed in anyone place were

560
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,400
caught on the stairway, like I
was saying, and in front of the

561
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,160
elevator on the 3rd floor.
The firefighters had a really

562
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,400
hard time with that, seeing
that.

563
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,560
Because I'm guessing the
elevator didn't say use stairs

564
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,640
in case of fire.
Probably not.

565
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:24,720
Also, after an explosion, I
don't think I'd want to get on

566
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:26,440
an elevator because for heaven's
sake.

567
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,200
Go down into a ball of fire.
I don't know.

568
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,040
I would rather have taken
stairs, but then again, the

569
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,920
stairs were clogged up with dead
bodies, so got to do what you

570
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,000
got to do, I guess.
One of the things that the fire

571
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:43,920
Lieutenant Reese, his name was
TW Reese, said that not more

572
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,440
than one or two of the people
who rushed to the elevator came

573
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,960
out of the building alive.
Reese said When we smashed in a

574
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,000
window at the West side of the
building, we can see through the

575
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,640
smoke one hot huge pile of
people.

576
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:59,480
They keep talking about huge
piles of people. 123 people died

577
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,720
and I wondered what a huge pile
of people would look like.

578
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:05,640
Yeah.
I mean, was that 10 people, 12

579
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,760
people, 30 people?
I don't know because I guess any

580
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:10,480
pile people would be too many
for me.

581
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,920
But I don't know when they say
that.

582
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,840
I'm not sure what to envision.
But like I say, any number of

583
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,240
people in a pile dead was
probably more than I'd prefer.

584
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,640
I mean.
It's not pretty but like my mind

585
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,120
goes to mass graves filling
fields and like Auschwitz and

586
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:26,360
stuff.
Me too.

587
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,800
They talk again about a fireman.
Who bored a hole through the

588
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,800
smoke with a high pressure hose?
Three other people in that same

589
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,800
area pulled bodies from the pile
and carried them to the window.

590
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,080
That's where other firefighters
waited to take them to the

591
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,280
ground.
That was probably the bio.

592
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:47,720
The bodies being removed was
probably after, of course, they

593
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,960
brought the people who were
appearing to be alive out,

594
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,120
Lieutenant Reese said.
We had a line of people strung

595
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,360
from the hallways to the stairs
where they were trapped clear to

596
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,320
the window, and it looked like a
hopeless job to begin with.

597
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:02,880
Everybody seemed so entangled in
the pile.

598
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,960
Not a one of those we dragged
out appeared to be living.

599
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:11,640
The firemen found that there was
only one they thought was still

600
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:15,120
living in one of the crush that
they found, and she was a nurse.

601
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,880
They carried her to an office at
the east side of the building

602
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,560
and they closed the door to
block the smoke as much as they

603
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:23,360
could.
Then they broke a window to let

604
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,520
fresh air in and they started
applying artificial respiration,

605
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:31,600
but she died while they were
trying, so that was really hard,

606
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:33,480
said.
One of the largest heroic

607
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:37,400
efforts was made by a policeman,
Earnest Stabbed, who was

608
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,880
recorded as saving 21 lives.
During this fire and event.

609
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:47,080
He seemed to recover and return
to duty as a policeman, but he

610
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,840
collapsed while he was working
on his lawn.

611
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,360
He was near death.
I know they didn't say where or

612
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,360
how long afterwards because it
did seem like he had fully

613
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,040
recovered, but he was near death
and he was rushed to the

614
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,240
hospital and placed under an
oxygen tent.

615
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,760
And he endured recurring medical
problems for the rest of his

616
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:07,680
life as a result of the clinic
disaster.

617
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,760
But he did remain on the Police
Department for another 20-5

618
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:12,520
years.
He served as a detective.

619
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:17,600
So he was taken off like a beat
patrol as a detective.

620
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,280
But it's just interesting to me
that we'll talk a little bit

621
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,440
more, like I say in just a
second about what happened to

622
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:26,440
these people as a result of this
smoke.

623
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,040
The people who did appear to
air, quote, survive.

624
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,920
So many of them thought they
were OK and then they weren't.

625
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,920
And then I think back to things
like Agent Orange and stuff that

626
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,480
had long term effects.
Dozens of witness reported that

627
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:44,280
the bodies of the first victims
coming out were yellow as they

628
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,400
came out and then they turned
green after they were brought

629
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,720
out the building.
Some sort of oxidization, I

630
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,000
guess.
I don't know, but Can you

631
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,080
imagine looking at a person that
looked a little yellow and then

632
00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:58,960
they turned green?
No.

633
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,760
Also a back to I'm getting the
heck out of here.

634
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,200
Yeah, seriously.
I was thinking back to our toxic

635
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:09,400
lady Gloria Ramirez, when people
started falling down around her

636
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,800
from from the exposure.
I'm like, I am not staying,

637
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,240
thank you very much.
One of the things it said is

638
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,200
there was a massive group of
onlookers and they blocked the

639
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:20,520
area for five blocks in every
direction.

640
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:28,840
Also, I'm thinking if I'm in a
group of five block deep people,

641
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,960
even if I wanted to leave, I
don't know if they could have

642
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:33,560
said that.
Pedestrians that were outside

643
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:35,360
the building toppled to the
ground and they were laid

644
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,160
unconscious until they were
dragged to safety.

645
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,200
When the gas lifted, all these
people come rushing up because

646
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:44,040
of this explosion and then
people start dropping and then

647
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,440
they were dragged to safety.
So at that point, hopefully

648
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:50,280
people moved away.
It's just wild that they were

649
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,080
hanging out, you know?
Oh, let's just see what else

650
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:53,760
might happen.
Let's.

651
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,080
Just watch this insane thing
happening.

652
00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:59,360
Well, and.
Watch these green people be

653
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:00,400
pulled out of this building.
I.

654
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:02,440
Know and let's stay see what
happens.

655
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,720
Let's stay Interesting to me
too, because I'm thinking if

656
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,960
people were around the whole
building for five blocks,

657
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:11,720
that's, I mean, how many people
is that?

658
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,600
But if people were coming out
the front of the building, the

659
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,520
people in the back may not have
even known what's going on

660
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,680
still.
So they could have who knows?

661
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:27,320
But in 1929, there were a lot
less options, I guess, and

662
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:31,520
communication and all of that.
Lot less, A lot less.

663
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:33,640
A lot fewer options for
entertainment.

664
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,400
That's right, that too, I guess,
probably.

665
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,080
Oh my goodness, there were a lot
of physicians on the scene.

666
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:41,920
Of course, 'cause it was a
hospital and a clinic.

667
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:46,280
A physician called George Creel
recognized that the injuries

668
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,040
were similar to the ones he said
he witnessed in World War One,

669
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,920
which poisonous gas caused a
highly fatal lung edema.

670
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:57,320
I guess the inhalation of what
he saw there created

671
00:33:57,800 --> 00:33:59,840
inflammation in and around the
lungs.

672
00:33:59,960 --> 00:34:04,600
I wondered what that looked like
exactly, but I guess it's like a

673
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:06,240
pneumothorax.
I'm almost thinking where

674
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:07,880
there's.
Pressure outside the I would

675
00:34:08,679 --> 00:34:12,400
imagine, too, that the alveoli
probably swell, right?

676
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:14,560
And so they crowd crowd each
other out.

677
00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:20,159
And they can't move, which would
be a very unpleasant way to go.

678
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,159
Yeah.
This is where that report of the

679
00:34:23,159 --> 00:34:25,760
grief would be defeat.
Doctor Corel was back in the

680
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,679
operating room by Friday of the
same week.

681
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,000
And he said, what day did it
happen?

682
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,719
Saturday, I think.
No, it would have been a

683
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:34,880
weekday.
I don't recall.

684
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:35,880
I'm sorry.
Wednesday.

685
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,080
No, it was Wednesday.
OK, so Saturday I was just

686
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:39,840
trying to figure out how many
days Saturday was.

687
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,560
OK, so he was back in the
operating room 4 days later?

688
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,520
Yeah, he said.
Grief would be defeat, he told

689
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:48,760
his wife Grace.
And he said this has come to us

690
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,080
and we must build something
constructive out of it.

691
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,480
Jeez.
What an attitude.

692
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:56,120
PMA Buddy.
Yeah.

693
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:00,400
Jeez Louise, slow clap.
Yes.

694
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,000
Oh.
Man, I know it was reported that

695
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:08,080
Doctor Carl Helwig was an intern
at a different hospital, but he

696
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,160
went to Mount Sinai where they
had taken a lot of the injured.

697
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,240
He was resuscitating victims.
And then he came upon his wife

698
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,960
and she had gone to the clinic
for an examination and she died

699
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,600
as he worked to save her.
That sucks.

700
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,920
Big time.
I can imagine, man.

701
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,280
I know it didn't say if he knew
she had been there or not, but

702
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,880
the way he said it said he came
upon his wife sounds like it was

703
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,240
a surprise.
And when I was working in

704
00:35:35,240 --> 00:35:39,560
American Fork Hospital, I was
again on the Med surge unit and

705
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:45,280
we had a person who had been
doing Hang Gliding at the point

706
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,000
of the mountain there.
And I think I've told you the

707
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:53,040
story, but he slammed into the
mountain and he was in the ER

708
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,440
Everyone was working on him.
I had been called to come in as

709
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:58,840
an IV team person.
I didn't actually do the IV

710
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:00,960
because someone else had come in
and gotten it before I could get

711
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:02,640
there.
All of a sudden I had gone back

712
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,080
to my unit and all of a sudden
there was this huge scream

713
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,680
through the hospital because it
used to be a very small

714
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:09,760
hospital.
It was the wife of the guy on

715
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:11,360
the table.
She had been working on him and

716
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:12,920
didn't know it's just her
husband.

717
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:15,040
Oh my gosh.
I know.

718
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,320
So it just reminded me of that,
that it was the same experience

719
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,640
because he was unidentifiable.
They had found his wallet.

720
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,480
Anyway, he died.
I thought of that when I heard

721
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,800
of Doctor Helwig and finding his
wife and then working on her.

722
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,440
She, of course, I imagine looked
like herself, except for

723
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,120
possibly green.
They said that it was just

724
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,920
impossible to find any room for
beds or cots at Mount Sinai

725
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,240
because they were just so
crowded with people.

726
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,080
Because you have to consider
there are another 100 or so

727
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:47,320
people that had come, hundred,
102 people that had survived and

728
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,200
many, many, many of them had
come to the hospital for

729
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:52,120
assistance.
Especially people who like the

730
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,720
guy who ended up dying on the
way, or several people who died

731
00:36:54,720 --> 00:36:58,600
on the way because they thought
they were OK and anyway it just

732
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:00,600
meant well.
It's not like 100, it's not like

733
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,440
100 people came and needed a
Band-Aid either, right?

734
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:08,240
Like 100 people came in critical
condition with mystery

735
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:10,080
poisoning.
Right.

736
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:13,200
And I don't even know if they
never did say if there was any

737
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:17,760
kind of reversing agent for this
because I think basically they

738
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:19,920
died before they could have done
anything else anyway.

739
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,160
So even if they could have
figured something out, they did

740
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:27,160
put the one detective police
officer on oxygen and that

741
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:29,800
helped him recover.
But that was the only thing that

742
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,000
it seemed like held anyway, at
that point at Mount Sinai, the

743
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,880
cots were in the hallways.
Janitors and other staff were

744
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:40,080
helping to apply the artificial
restoration.

745
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:46,320
Oh my gosh, respiration to the
victims and treat for burns

746
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,680
because also fire.
It was still a fire.

747
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,840
So they were treating burns.
They were doing everything they

748
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:55,360
could.
All the medical people, everyone

749
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:59,120
in the hospital was helping.
Can you imagine getting burn

750
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,920
treatment from a janitor?
What's your training?

751
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:05,040
Well, I.
Imagine.

752
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:07,920
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, which is great that they

753
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:12,480
could help, but can I just, oh,
it's, I can only mildly

754
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:14,920
visualize what kind of chaos
this happened to Ben.

755
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:19,360
Also, they were nurses and
doctors coming in that were

756
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,800
injured and hurt and dying, and
they were saying a priest was

757
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,480
going around giving last rites
to those who appeared to be

758
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:29,280
dying all through just wandering
around giving last rites to

759
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,240
everybody who's dying.
It was just crazy.

760
00:38:32,240 --> 00:38:35,120
And again, many of the people
died on the way to the hospital.

761
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,200
They couldn't administer care
quickly enough to all they

762
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:39,760
tried.
They tried everything they

763
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:41,080
could.
And so people were dying in the

764
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,920
hospital just because they
couldn't help them fast enough.

765
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:48,960
The police had to work with the
people who are coming in looking

766
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,520
for their loved ones.
And they had just the city was

767
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:54,800
filled with fear because they
didn't know who had been

768
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:56,640
affected.
They didn't know who was there.

769
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,720
This really is like a miniature
9/11, right?

770
00:38:59,720 --> 00:39:01,720
Like.
Yeah, it really was.

771
00:39:01,720 --> 00:39:04,360
So similar, I mean, other than
to be a terrorist attack, of

772
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:05,560
course.
Right.

773
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:07,840
And it did make me wonder if
they thought it was something

774
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:09,120
like that.
But I think it's before

775
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:10,760
terrorist attacks really
happened.

776
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:12,520
So I don't think that was ever
considered.

777
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:16,480
Also, since the guy who was
trying to close the steam was

778
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,120
there when the first explosion
happened, I think they knew

779
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:22,560
pretty fast what had happened,
but they hadn't yet figured out

780
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:24,520
why.
So the police had to go to the

781
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:29,720
morgues and hold people back
because the bodies were being

782
00:39:29,720 --> 00:39:33,920
taken in and they hadn't
identified everybody yet.

783
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,680
They didn't know who was who.
It was just crazy.

784
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:40,520
So they started, as they started
identifying people, they thought

785
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:42,920
they identified people.
People had to come to actually

786
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,320
from the family, identify the
bodies.

787
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,560
They said the scenes were heart
wrenching and heartbreaking

788
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:52,640
because people were hysterical
and they had to be LED from the

789
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:57,080
building that some people just
walked out silently, tears down

790
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:01,640
their faces.
And 123 families were affected.

791
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:03,760
And of course, how many people
does that really mean?

792
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:05,560
Thousands.
Probably thousands.

793
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,880
Did you go to Art's funeral?
No SO.

794
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,920
His funerary work was done
poorly.

795
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,480
And I'm just thinking like, if I
had had to identify him, I could

796
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,600
have identified him alive.
So I, you know, when he was in a

797
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,360
coma and all that, and I had to
identify him, then I could have

798
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,080
identified him.
But if I had had to identify his

799
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,920
body and it looked the way it
did in his casket, I would have

800
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:29,640
been hard pressed to say that
was him.

801
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:32,160
Yeah.
So I can't even imagine having

802
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:37,120
to identify a body that's also
green and has God knows what,

803
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,760
what injuries and wounds and
what have you.

804
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:42,000
I just.
I can't imagine.

805
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,240
Yeah, I was in California during
that time for your family.

806
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:47,040
I forgive you.
Just kidding.

807
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:48,960
Thank you.
Thank you.

808
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:54,960
It would have been so traumatic
and tragic, and I wonder too, if

809
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:57,440
all of this was happening, were
there people that they could

810
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:00,280
never find?
They never said anything about

811
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,600
it then, especially people.
The opposite people they found,

812
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,080
who were never identified.
Yeah, it could be.

813
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,640
It didn't say anything about any
of the stories I read saying

814
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:13,040
that.
Again, I wonder back in 1929,

815
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:15,840
it's not like they had DNA
testing or anything like that.

816
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,480
And I imagine with the various
explosions and the the degree of

817
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,840
fire, I couldn't think that
there wouldn't be at least some

818
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,400
people that were lost that were
never found.

819
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:31,240
But yeah, I don't know.
So after the disaster, community

820
00:41:31,240 --> 00:41:34,360
leaders came to the aid of the
Cleveland Clinic because it was

821
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,560
a pretty impactful clinic for
the area.

822
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,480
They had done a lot of research
and a lot of things like that,

823
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,760
and there were gifts that were
totalling more than 30,000,

824
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:46,360
which is the equivalent of
nearly half, $1,000,000 today.

825
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:52,160
They gave them to the clinic to
help rebuild, but for reasons

826
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,880
that I never actually saw, the
Cleveland Clinic opted to return

827
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,560
the money and they finance their
own recovery.

828
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:02,960
That's weird.
I know it didn't say why, but I

829
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:06,200
thought that was interesting and
they even included interest back

830
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,080
to the people who paid.
It so weird.

831
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:10,720
Yeah.
And I think that maybe the

832
00:42:10,720 --> 00:42:15,920
founders of the clinic were very
committed to making I, I felt

833
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,880
like maybe the things they said,
it almost sounded like they

834
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:22,280
didn't want any government
interference or anything like

835
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:24,960
that in their clinic.
And that was an extrapolation I

836
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:30,000
made by having them give it all
back, because it had been the

837
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,680
community leaders that brought
this money in.

838
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:35,640
So I don't know.
I just guessed because I didn't

839
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:38,280
see anything specific about it
or why they gave it back.

840
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,840
The surviving founders, one of
the doctors that was a founder

841
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:45,240
was killed in this.
But the challenges, they said

842
00:42:45,240 --> 00:42:48,480
were huge.
They were responsible for the

843
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:52,560
human and financial losses, the
challenges, rebuilding, and then

844
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:56,480
also talking to the crowds.
They're angry and grieving.

845
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,920
And there was also a lot of
legal stuff that went on even

846
00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:02,080
back then.
And they were all trying to

847
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:04,440
return to work.
So the fact that they returned

848
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:07,200
this money and didn't they
didn't use it is weird to me.

849
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:09,640
Like you said, it seems like it
would have made some of it

850
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:13,240
easier, but I guess they didn't
want to be beholding to anyone.

851
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:15,440
I don't know.
Yeah, I guess.

852
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:17,800
It was just sort of interesting
to me when I read that.

853
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,280
Oh my gosh.
And interest, I'm not really

854
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:22,720
sure what motivated it, but it
sounded like they held on to the

855
00:43:22,720 --> 00:43:25,280
money in case they needed it,
and then they returned it when

856
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:28,160
they realized they didn't.
Maybe they had their own

857
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:30,520
fundraisers.
They never really said they.

858
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:34,640
Raised far more money than they
needed, so they just turned it

859
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:38,560
to be ethical.
And again, like I say that it

860
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:43,480
may have also been just to not
owe anybody outside of their own

861
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:44,960
clinic.
Thanks for looking that up.

862
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:48,360
They had a variety of
investigations, of course, to

863
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:50,640
find out what was wrong.
And a doctor.

864
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:53,960
McLaren was a commissioner of
the city trade waste department,

865
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:57,520
which I don't have any idea what
a trade waste department is.

866
00:43:57,520 --> 00:43:59,920
I've never heard of it since.
So maybe it was an older thing,

867
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:03,920
but he was one of the first
investigators on the X-ray film

868
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:06,680
storage room.
OK, so AI don't think I'd want

869
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:10,800
to be one of the first people in
there because I'm still going.

870
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:12,920
What the heck?
I just maybe they didn't

871
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,000
consider it could still possibly
be toxic.

872
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:18,320
It didn't say he went in wearing
protective gear or anything, and

873
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:21,520
maybe he did, but there was a
picture of a bunch of guys that

874
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:23,920
were another wave investigators,
and they were just standing

875
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:26,000
there in the prison suits ready
to go in.

876
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,400
Like, no, thank you.
I feel like that would be

877
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:31,680
dangerous.
He initially saw a light bulb

878
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,520
hanging from the pipe duct, and
he said it was hanging

879
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:38,120
precariously, and he theorized
that that was the primary source

880
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:41,240
of decomposition to the
nitrocellulose film.

881
00:44:41,240 --> 00:44:43,560
What had been the problem?
So a little bit of.

882
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:47,960
His light bulb lit the film.
Well, that's what he was

883
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:49,440
thinking.
He was thinking it was

884
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:51,160
decomposing it.
But here's a little history

885
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:54,440
about this nitrocellulose film.
And this film was developed by

886
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:57,480
Eastman Kodak Company.
You've heard of Kodak, I'm sure.

887
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:01,080
And it was developed during the
late 1880s.

888
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:05,160
And it was for use in the field
of medicine for doing X-rays and

889
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:08,240
in the motion picture industry.
So it's the same film.

890
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:13,400
This film developed a reputation
for being highly volatile, oh

891
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:15,680
boy.
And unstable.

892
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:18,960
And extraordinarily flammable.
Wow.

893
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:22,560
So those are really good
features, yes, especially the.

894
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:25,200
Stack up in a storage room.
Exactly.

895
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:29,720
That had coal dust in it, Yeah,
and precariously hanging.

896
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:32,760
I was saying apparently poorly,
poorly young lights.

897
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,360
Yes, can't see anything going
wrong there, but it noted in the

898
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:40,840
research I was looking at that
if the nitrate film ignites,

899
00:45:41,240 --> 00:45:46,360
it's extremely difficult to
extinguish, and even better,

900
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:50,600
immersing the burning film in
water may not extinguish it and

901
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:54,080
could actually increase the
deadly gas that's emitted.

902
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:56,480
Oh my gosh.
And they knew that.

903
00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:02,480
Here's the room in the basement
that has all these films stacked

904
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:04,920
in it.
Some of it I get was probably

905
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:07,600
exposed film where they'd
already use it for X-rays, and

906
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:10,640
probably storage of said film
because where are you going to

907
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:11,640
put it?
Oh, I know we'll put it in the

908
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:17,360
basement.
This is volatile, deadly stuff.

909
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:19,440
Jeez.
I know.

910
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:24,760
Now, did investigators know that
this had been set up this way

911
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:26,040
before?
Probably not.

912
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:28,960
Nobody probably even thought
about it because I would not be

913
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:31,880
surprised if the people that had
stored it were people unaware of

914
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:34,640
anything like that.
Because usually somebody says,

915
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:37,360
hey, go put this somewhere out
of the way, OK?

916
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:38,880
Yeah, we got to find a place to
store this.

917
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:40,600
I'll clean out the basement.
Problem solved.

918
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:42,760
Exactly.
Which is reasonable because if I

919
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:44,840
didn't know it was highly
volatile, I'd probably just

920
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:46,160
stuff it in the backroom
somewhere too.

921
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:47,400
I don't know, Yeah.
Yeah.

922
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:51,720
But there were representatives
from the Ohio Inspection Bureau.

923
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:53,880
They were among some of the
people that were sent to

924
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:58,280
investigate what happened.
The team came up with three

925
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:01,320
viable theories as to the cause
of the fire.

926
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:03,880
What they concluded, one of them
was the light bulb.

927
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:07,040
They didn't mention what this
second theory was, but the one

928
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:11,720
they concluded was that the
steam acted as the primary

929
00:47:11,720 --> 00:47:14,000
catalyst, that the light bulb
probably wasn't actually

930
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:16,640
involved because remember how
water can make it more unstable?

931
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:21,680
So the steam that was coming
out, it got on the film and it

932
00:47:21,720 --> 00:47:26,760
made the highly unstable nitrate
film start to decompose, and

933
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:30,560
then it started to emit a
poisonous cloud of gas that is

934
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:33,760
not good, and then all of that.
Sounds pretty bad.

935
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:37,440
Yeah, it's as in many of these
things, it had that perfect

936
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,960
storm of things that happened
that if one of them happened, it

937
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:41,840
probably wouldn't.
OK.

938
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:44,840
But when all of the things
happened together in a sub

939
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:48,000
basement, it could have been
something that could have

940
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:49,760
probably put itself out or
something.

941
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:53,160
But the fact that it went into
the exhaust system, because in

942
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:56,080
this basement was also the
heating ducts and everything

943
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:57,440
that went through the whole
hospital.

944
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,360
And that was the problem.
Yeah.

945
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:02,720
And I mean, but who would think
that that could ever possibly

946
00:48:02,720 --> 00:48:04,240
happen?
I don't think anyone.

947
00:48:04,240 --> 00:48:10,520
This was the most intense
disaster that happened in any

948
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:14,720
hospital or clinic facility ever
recorded at that time.

949
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:17,640
It really got the attention of
people everywhere in the

950
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:21,360
national, worldwide.
I'm sure they're going, oh, that

951
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:26,480
seems to be a problem.
What happened that was good is

952
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:28,520
in many of these cases they
started looking and

953
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:31,360
investigating, going, oh, there
might have been some little

954
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:33,760
problems here.
The National Fire Protection

955
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:38,320
Association, which was already
developed, so that's good, said

956
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:41,320
in a report.
This is the quote the most

957
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:44,400
diabolical cunning could
scarcely have devised, an

958
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:47,120
arrangement more surely
calculated to spread death

959
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:51,560
throughout the building.
Wow, sorry guys.

960
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:55,880
Said the.
Janitor who packed up the films.

961
00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:58,880
I don't know.
Maybe that custodian, I don't

962
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:01,360
know.
But yeah, they said even if

963
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:03,880
somebody planned this, they
probably couldn't have done as

964
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:06,000
much damage as the situation
caused.

965
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:09,920
Never in the history of medical
science in the world had such a

966
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:13,000
strange disaster demolished
another hospital or clinic.

967
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:17,120
As I mentioned, even more than
the loss of life, it caused the

968
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:20,960
destruction of records,
equipment, statistics, test

969
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:22,960
specimens and delicate
instruments.

970
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:25,840
Because it was a learning
hospital too, apparently.

971
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:28,360
I was just going to say that's
like doubly bad because it's a

972
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:30,000
learning hospital.
It's a research hospital.

973
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:32,640
It's a forerunner in research as
a research hospital.

974
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:34,840
That's horrible.
Yeah.

975
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:39,160
So I mean, obviously the loss of
123 people is tragic, and then

976
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:43,000
the loss of all of that was a
huge, huge hit.

977
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:45,800
There were a lot of legal
actions taken, but Cleveland

978
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:48,520
Clinic officials were absolved
of responsibility for the fire.

979
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:50,760
There had been $3,000,000 in
lawsuits.

980
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:55,480
So if we know that 35,000 is,
what was it $1,000,000 now a

981
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:58,960
$3,000,000 lawsuit?
Can you imagine that?

982
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:00,480
How much is that?
I don't even know.

983
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:03,680
A. 100 billion 100,100,000,000
not billion probably a.

984
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:06,600
Hundred, a lot of money, a lot
of money.

985
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:10,080
They were able to settle out of
court for about $45,000.

986
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:12,560
So that was still.
That's very different than 30.

987
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:15,520
Million, it is.
It is, but it was still a lot of

988
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:17,640
money back then.
Sure, considering all that

989
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:20,720
happened and you know, they
never mentioned anything about

990
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:24,000
talking to the Kodak Company or
anything like that at that

991
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:25,400
point.
Because I think the Kodak

992
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:29,600
Company should have had some
responsibility here, especially

993
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:33,400
if I mean, maybe there were
warnings, but there if there

994
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:35,800
were warnings, the people who
were actually moving it like

995
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:38,440
we're talking about probably
didn't know anything about those

996
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:40,080
warnings.
Was it on the boxes or

997
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:41,080
something?
I don't know.

998
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:43,640
Probably not.
Now we're warned, you know,

999
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:46,840
something that's boiling hot
could actually be hot back then.

1000
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:49,040
I mean, I think they just
figured people were smart enough

1001
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:51,280
to figure it out.
But in this case, I don't know

1002
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:53,320
why they would be.
Not that they weren't smart, but

1003
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:56,080
that they wouldn't know.
It's a niche thing to know.

1004
00:50:56,240 --> 00:50:58,680
Right.
And unless the person had

1005
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:01,160
actually sort of somehow heard
about it, I mean, the city

1006
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:03,440
manager's Commission that was
investigating the fire

1007
00:51:03,720 --> 00:51:06,200
recommended that Cleveland's
police and fire departments be

1008
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:10,000
supplied with gas masks and the
municipal ambulance service be

1009
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:12,240
established to provide a
suitable transportation for

1010
00:51:12,240 --> 00:51:15,160
cases that needed transporting
to hospital care.

1011
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:20,280
Because they didn't have any
major response team, as it were.

1012
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:24,560
They didn't have anything set up
for something of a toxic nature.

1013
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:27,640
I guess they had just not had
anything like that on a national

1014
00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:29,800
level.
The fire resulted in the

1015
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:32,440
development of new standards for
storage and labeling of

1016
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:37,440
hazardous materials, especially
the nitrocellulose film, because

1017
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:40,320
it took a while for them to come
up with something else.

1018
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:43,200
I didn't see in this how long it
took to change from that

1019
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:48,080
volatile stuff to something that
was a little safer, but there

1020
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:51,440
were changes in how it had to be
stored and how it had to be

1021
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:53,440
labeled.
And now, gosh, if there's

1022
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:57,920
anything even minorly toxic,
you've got to have data safety

1023
00:51:57,920 --> 00:51:59,920
sheets on SDS.
Yeah.

1024
00:51:59,920 --> 00:52:04,320
And going, OK now, if you spill
ammonia, you have to do this.

1025
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:09,520
If you spill this, if you use
whiteout, it's every blasted

1026
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:11,520
thing.
Fire insurance companies also

1027
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:14,600
began to revise and strictly
enforce safety regulations

1028
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:19,400
regarding the sort of stuff like
this, too, because the building

1029
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:22,200
insurance would have had to
cover some of this if they had

1030
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:23,960
fire insurance.
And as a hospital, I imagine

1031
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:26,480
they did.
But that was one of the things

1032
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:29,280
when I looked at the returning
the donations, they said that

1033
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:33,240
their insurance covered quite a
bit of it and and so they just

1034
00:52:33,240 --> 00:52:35,160
didn't want to take advantage of
the public trust.

1035
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:37,440
That's really nice because they
sure could have, they could have

1036
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:39,000
gotten some better materials and
stuff.

1037
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:43,120
So the insurance companies said,
OK, so if you are responsible,

1038
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:46,600
then you get to pay for some of
it instead of what was happening

1039
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:48,400
there.
And also, you know, they wanted

1040
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:51,680
people to be safer.
Several of the investigation

1041
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:56,040
commissions that were looking at
the cause of the fumes made

1042
00:52:56,040 --> 00:53:00,720
amendments to policy that they
had for this sort of thing as

1043
00:53:00,720 --> 00:53:05,320
well to alter firefighting
practices and the procedures and

1044
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:07,720
methodology behind the proper
use and storage of these

1045
00:53:07,720 --> 00:53:09,560
chemicals.
Like we talked about, it was

1046
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:13,680
paid attention to through the
world because since this film,

1047
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:17,720
the cellulose film was the
standard for taking X-rays, even

1048
00:53:17,720 --> 00:53:20,600
people in other parts of the
world had been using it.

1049
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:24,840
So they had to they had to look
at how they could keep people

1050
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:26,840
safe.
And also, if you think about it,

1051
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:33,240
if you had these films in other
countries that have even fewer

1052
00:53:33,240 --> 00:53:36,840
guidelines than the.
United States and resources and

1053
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:40,200
rescue resources, I mean.
Yeah, it's probably just

1054
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:43,920
fortunate that nothing like this
ever happened.

1055
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:47,160
Before, yeah.
In a lesser developed country,

1056
00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:50,040
Yep, yeah.
It's just shocking and and the

1057
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:55,520
fumes are so scary to me because
if it's coming out, what do you

1058
00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:57,920
do?
Those people can rush up to the

1059
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:01,840
scene, but people who were just
innocently walking by and didn't

1060
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:05,000
know anything about it and
didn't rush up to the scene that

1061
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:08,040
were passing out and collapsing,
they had no time to respond

1062
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:10,720
either, it sounds like.
Do you know if it had an odor or

1063
00:54:10,720 --> 00:54:12,720
a scent?
Nothing was ever said.

1064
00:54:12,720 --> 00:54:16,120
When I think of a yellow gas, I
think of rotten eggs.

1065
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:17,280
Rotten eggs, right?
Sulfur.

1066
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:21,960
But nothing was ever said about
it smelling they just but I

1067
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:24,440
think it would have seen.
I don't know though, because it

1068
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:26,800
seems like the guy that was
like, oh, the gas didn't get to

1069
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:28,560
me.
He would have thought that if it

1070
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:31,640
had an odor odor that he would
have known he inhaled it, right?

1071
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:33,560
Probably.
Probably.

1072
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:38,040
Maybe because there was not even
a single solitary mention of

1073
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:41,560
anyone saying and then I
smelled, you know, whatever.

1074
00:54:42,240 --> 00:54:44,520
There was no one mentioned
anything about smells and they

1075
00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:46,120
talked about a lot of other
stuff.

1076
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:49,320
So I would think if it smelled
somebody and all of.

1077
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:50,720
Them.
Then I smelled farts.

1078
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:54,880
And somebody or a burning match.
Or whatever, Yeah.

1079
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:58,720
A sulfur smell or something?
No, nobody said anything

1080
00:54:58,720 --> 00:55:03,280
anywhere about a smell when they
had in that Centennial article.

1081
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:05,640
They didn't really bring
anything out that I hadn't

1082
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:07,160
already read and all the other
stuff.

1083
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:10,600
I think it was just one of those
things that they were reminding

1084
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:14,160
of history, including Cleveland.
One of the things I'm interested

1085
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:17,160
in talking about in a different
episode of this pug.

1086
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:22,400
There was Collingwood school
fire of 19 O eight in one of the

1087
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:24,760
articles that said it was the
most tragic thing that had

1088
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:28,440
happened in the state since of
Ohio wool fire.

1089
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:33,160
Yeah, of of Ohio in the school
fire of 19 O 8.

1090
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:35,800
I did a little research on that,
but I I'd like to have a

1091
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:39,040
separate episode that was really
terrible too.

1092
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:43,440
It's just amazing how
fortunately a lot of rules and

1093
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:46,320
regulations have changed and
sometimes having all the rules

1094
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:48,360
and regulations is like, are you
kidding me?

1095
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:53,880
But many of them save lives
every single day, and some of

1096
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:55,520
them are just stupid and
obnoxious.

1097
00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:59,160
But it means it saves a life,
then I'm willing to do it.

1098
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:04,160
I just think that these things
are so scary and tragic.

1099
00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:07,760
And even if a person doesn't
die, these firefighters and

1100
00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:10,560
police that saw all this and,
and the fellow people who did

1101
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:15,120
survive who saw all this must
have been awfully traumatized

1102
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:18,360
for a while, I'm sure.
I'm just glad I wasn't there.

1103
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:21,440
I am not old enough to have been
in a 1929 experience.

1104
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:25,320
These are the stories that are
so amazing to me.

1105
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:29,440
And as many of our stories that
have these sorts of tragedies,

1106
00:56:29,720 --> 00:56:35,480
they are the leader of change
because nobody realized this was

1107
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:39,320
as big a problem as it became.
Fortunately, other people didn't

1108
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:42,040
have to experience it a lot like
some of the other things that

1109
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:45,440
had to wait to change and tell
enough people experienced it.

1110
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:50,680
But 123 people on one go is is a
pretty big, pretty big hit.

1111
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:55,240
I'm glad that things have
changed, hopefully in a way that

1112
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:57,960
this will never happen again.
And of course, the cellulose

1113
00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:01,400
film is gone by the wayside.
You know, I wonder actually, as

1114
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:04,160
I say that, I wonder what
happened to all of it that was

1115
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:06,080
around.
I wonder.

1116
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:11,720
I wonder where it went.
Probably some landfill volcano.

1117
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:15,440
Yeah, who knows.
As would be typical of those

1118
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:19,760
years, and probably until
probably until the 60s at the

1119
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:22,640
earliest, nobody worried much
about putting toxic stuff

1120
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:23,760
anywhere.
Yeah.

1121
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:27,640
So that's a thought I don't want
to carry on with anyway.

1122
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:30,720
Well, thanks for listening.
Yeah, thanks for sharing.

1123
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:31,760
It was great.
All right.

1124
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:34,680
If you've made it this far,
clearly you like a little mayhem

1125
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:37,080
with your medicine.
Or you just enjoy hearing us

1126
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:38,920
ramble about weird medical
mysteries.

1127
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:40,800
Either way, we'd love you for
it.

1128
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:42,760
So hit that, follow or
subscribe.

1129
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:44,160
Button wherever you're
listening.

1130
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:46,320
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1131
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:49,160
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the show.

1132
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:51,960
And we know there are a lot of
you out there.

1133
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:54,800
Oh so many.
Come join the chaos.

1134
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:58,000
Thanks for listening to
Medicine, Mystery, mayhem, and

1135
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:00,680
sometimes Murder.
Do you have an idea for an

1136
00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:03,560
episode of this podcast?
Just want to say hi?

1137
00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:06,960
You can get in touch with us at
our M4 pod.

1138
00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:13,920
That's OURM
thenumberfourpod@gmail.com.

1139
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:18,440
We read every e-mail, and
sometimes we even respond just

1140
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:21,160
like real professionals.
Because we are.

1141
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:26,120
Old friends with new twists and
lots of body bags.