No One Knows What it's Like - Michael Swango Pt 2

1
00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:11,360
Welcome to M4 Medicine, mystery,
mayhem, and sometimes murder.

2
00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,920
I'm Andrea Marciano and RN with
35 years of experience across

3
00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:17,080
various fields.
From direct patient care in

4
00:00:17,080 --> 00:00:19,800
hospitals to home health,
geriatrics, and injury medicine,

5
00:00:20,080 --> 00:00:22,200
I face life, death, and
everything in between.

6
00:00:22,240 --> 00:00:25,720
And I'm Crystal Miller and RN
with 13 1/2 years of experience.

7
00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,960
My work spans home health,
Hospice, emergency care,

8
00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:30,680
geriatrics, and occupational
health.

9
00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:33,640
From the chaos of trauma based
quiet moments with patients,

10
00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:35,920
I've seen stories that defy
explanations.

11
00:00:36,160 --> 00:00:39,720
We've been friends for over 25
years and as nurses we've shared

12
00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:44,000
countless stories that have left
us and our families speechless.

13
00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:47,120
Now we're bringing those stories
and many more to you in

14
00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:52,000
medicine, mystery, mayhem, and
sometimes murder.

15
00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,040
Each week, we'll uncover cases
that challenge the boundaries of

16
00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:58,600
medicine, sharing the human
stories behind the science.

17
00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,520
From puzzling medical mysteries
to shocking real life crimes,

18
00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,239
we'll bring you stories that'll
leave you questioning everything

19
00:01:04,239 --> 00:01:06,120
you thought you knew while.
We're both experiencing these

20
00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:08,040
nurses.
We want to make it clear we're

21
00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,000
not here to give medical advice.
This podcast is about

22
00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,320
storytelling, education and
exploration, not diagnosing or

23
00:01:14,320 --> 00:01:18,120
treating medical conditions.
This is medicine, mystery,

24
00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:21,960
mayhem, and sometimes murder.
Let's dive in.

25
00:01:21,960 --> 00:01:24,280
So what do you think, Crystal?
I can't believe that there's

26
00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:26,920
more information and enough for
a second episode, but I can't

27
00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:28,880
wait to hear what you got to
share.

28
00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:31,120
Thank you.
There's a lot more.

29
00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:38,480
OK, we're coming back on the 2nd
half of the episode on medical

30
00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:41,680
mishaps or malfeasance by
surgeon Michael Swango.

31
00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:42,840
How are you doing today,
Crystal?

32
00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:45,280
I'm doing well.
He's a surgeon.

33
00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:47,560
Yeah, he was trained as a
surgeon.

34
00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:51,400
I mean, I didn't realize that.
Well, I'm probably skimmed over

35
00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:53,960
it because there's so much in
this case.

36
00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,000
It's just mind boggling.
But for listeners who haven't

37
00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,600
listened to the first episode,
please go back to that because

38
00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:03,440
we do talk in detail about how
Doctor Swango got to the point

39
00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:05,920
of being still working at a
hospital.

40
00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:08,080
There's some really sketchy
things going on.

41
00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:10,160
But he was supposed to have
greater supervision.

42
00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:14,320
The patient in question for
this, this ruling, if you will,

43
00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:16,720
for greater supervision was
Misses Cooper.

44
00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:20,360
And she nearly died, but she was
released from the hospital.

45
00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,800
Her discharge summary contained
a suggestion that her suspicions

46
00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:27,000
about someone tampering with her
IV were a paranoid delusion.

47
00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:28,920
Oh.
So we just.

48
00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:31,600
That is cruel.
Oh.

49
00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:35,200
So we just set up the
second-half of this episode with

50
00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:38,680
the patient being the one with
paranoid delusion, not Doctor

51
00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:40,600
Swango doing something
nefarious.

52
00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:44,560
Oh my God.
After we have also the the

53
00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:49,000
eyewitness of a of three nurses
essentially that saw this

54
00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:52,680
syringe, this used syringe in
the sink of the room.

55
00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:54,920
Like what?
Yeah, yeah.

56
00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,480
And then in the note, it also
said the patient gave indication

57
00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:01,480
that she entertained some
paranoid ideation regarding the

58
00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:05,200
cause of a respiratory arrest
and felt it may do be due to

59
00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,960
unnamed person or persons.
Wow.

60
00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:10,720
Yes, 'cause if you remember, she
called, She didn't know who it

61
00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:12,600
was, but called them the white
Angel of death.

62
00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:15,280
Yes, I do remember.
Can you imagine this poor Missus

63
00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:16,920
Cooper?
I feel so sad for her.

64
00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:19,520
I do too.
Gas lit O Rama.

65
00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:24,480
I guess that a Rama for real.
Anyway, Doctor Swangover

66
00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,520
Chandra's post after the
conclusion of the investigation,

67
00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,440
and it coincided with two other
suspicious but less well

68
00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:33,880
documented incidents.
Are you surprised?

69
00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:37,120
I sure I'm not.
I'm not at this. .0 My goodness.

70
00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,280
So that February I believe gosh,
where are we?

71
00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:43,200
1984 or five?
I have even lost track of what

72
00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,000
year we're in.
However, he's been a very busy

73
00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:47,720
boy.
Doctor Swango's return to his

74
00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:52,760
post was in February of that
year, and he accompanied the

75
00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:56,640
attending surgeon on around to
visit a patient named Evelyn

76
00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,600
Inery, and she was recovering
from colon surgery.

77
00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,720
OK, well, Swango apparently was
accompanying the surgeon, and

78
00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,240
it's not clear whether Swango
was ever alone with her.

79
00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,920
But 45 minutes after the visit,
Doctor Birkin was called back to

80
00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,600
her bedside and found her
bleeding profusely and

81
00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:17,279
inexplicably from many parts of
her body, including the eyes and

82
00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:18,720
nose.
Yikes.

83
00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,720
Birkin later said that such
symptoms occurred in patients

84
00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,400
who have been poisoned.
And Birkin is a surgeon, right?

85
00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:26,400
Right.
Several days later, another

86
00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:29,000
patient, Charlotte Warner,
collapsed while standing up to

87
00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:33,320
use the bedside commode and is
pronounced dead 45 minutes after

88
00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:36,280
she was found there.
So she collapsed on her commode

89
00:04:36,280 --> 00:04:38,560
and felt was pronounced dead 45
minutes later.

90
00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:43,400
An autopsy was performed and the
doctors at the time were puzzled

91
00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,080
by the discovery that she had
died from blood clots appearing

92
00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:50,440
throughout her body, a condition
that is related to rice and

93
00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,080
poisoning.
Oh my gosh, who had the

94
00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:56,960
ingredients for making?
Rice in in June, this guy.

95
00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:01,080
OK, so this is where he
completed a surgical rotation.

96
00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:04,120
So in June while completing a
surgery rotation in Pediatrics

97
00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:06,840
at the Children's Hospital, now
he's going after kids.

98
00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:11,200
I know Doctor Swango offered to
get some extra spicy Kentucky

99
00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:13,840
Fried Chicken for a group of
doctors who are on duty 1

100
00:05:13,840 --> 00:05:15,720
evening.
The three residents who ate the

101
00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,600
chicken soon became I'll with
nausea, vomiting and diarrhea.

102
00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,600
One of them said afterwards,
it's as sick as I've ever been.

103
00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:25,240
No one suspected foul play
because I'm sure they all blamed

104
00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:26,760
the chicken because why wouldn't
they?

105
00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,160
They didn't know Swing a poison
doll as paramedic friends

106
00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:35,400
anyway.
At this point, this finally was

107
00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:37,240
enough.
Ohio State did not renew

108
00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:39,960
Swango's appointment for the
following year, finally

109
00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:44,040
notifying of the fact in a
letter that gave no reason for

110
00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,400
the decision.
Come on.

111
00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:50,120
I know Larry Carey, after the
chairman of the Department of

112
00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:52,720
Surgery, recommended that Swango
be licensed to practice medicine

113
00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:56,200
in the state of Ohio that March,
but with reservations.

114
00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:57,920
OK.
Right, right.

115
00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:01,080
That seems reasonable.
So the state medical court asked

116
00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:02,480
for details.
Why?

117
00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:04,920
Why does he need restrictions?
At least somebody's asking,

118
00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,480
right?
Doctor Perry focused on Swango's

119
00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,040
general performance as an
intern, not all this other

120
00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:11,440
stuff.
But he mentioned the

121
00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:14,320
investigation but said that
Swango had been exonerated,

122
00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:17,400
which was sort of true.
Not completely.

123
00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,480
And Ohio State doctors
subsequently recommended they be

124
00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:22,200
licensed to practice medicine in
Illinois.

125
00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,000
When Doctor Kerry was later
questioned at the behest of

126
00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,680
Quincy authorities about the
background, he said again, only

127
00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,800
Swango had been accused of
tampering with patients Ivs but

128
00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,640
have been completely cleared of
any wrongdoing.

129
00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,280
Now, that's not how I read it,
that he was completely cleared.

130
00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:41,560
It sounds like it was.
He was sort of cleared.

131
00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:43,880
They couldn't really prove it.
So they had to go.

132
00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:47,040
All right, That doesn't sound
like completely cleared of any

133
00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,560
wrongdoing to me.
I was not on the the review

134
00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:54,000
board, though here our friend
Morgan is still investigating

135
00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:58,120
with officials and he spent 30,
14 months investigating Swango.

136
00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:00,560
And Morgan said this is his
quote.

137
00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:02,800
We were in over our heads.
And he said your usual

138
00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,960
prosecutor is comfortable with
weapons, guns, beatings, but

139
00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,080
when it comes to poison, we need
a professional help.

140
00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:10,680
He said, I still can picture
myself in the office reading up

141
00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:13,440
on poisons and realizing if this
is what we're happening, what's

142
00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:14,960
happening, we are in big
trouble.

143
00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,720
Back then, if poison was rice in
our derivatives, there was no

144
00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,440
known test for it.
So Morgan knew that they were

145
00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:22,120
they didn't know what to do
really.

146
00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:24,400
Morgan was trying to get some
help for the University

147
00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,640
Hospitals and staff there.
He said from a law enforcement

148
00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:29,840
perspective, the hospital's
internal investigations were

149
00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,680
shockingly inadequate and noted
in his reports the doctors,

150
00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,120
administration, lawyers appeared
to coordinate the responses to

151
00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:38,880
his investigation, closely
monitoring the progress.

152
00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,200
So basically they rounded up the
wagons.

153
00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,840
We know that if one doctor goes
down, the whole hospital

154
00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:46,880
couldn't go down, especially
now.

155
00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:49,880
I don't know if the litigation
system was as strong as it is.

156
00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:52,200
Now.
But it still causes a big

157
00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:55,120
problem.
At any rate, Morgan was feeling

158
00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:57,880
a little disheartened, frankly.
He talked to his boss.

159
00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:00,880
Boss request Morgan submitted a
draft of his report to the

160
00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:02,760
president of Ohio State
University.

161
00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:06,440
He asked Morgan to delete the
names of the patients and all

162
00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:08,240
the doctors and hospital
officials involved.

163
00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,400
The doctors administration at
the University Hospitals said

164
00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:13,760
this.
We greatly resent the intrusion

165
00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:15,240
of law enforcement and their
affairs.

166
00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,360
From day one, Morgan said.
They resented us.

167
00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:21,040
They never really cooperated or
is grudging cooperation.

168
00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:23,640
It was on the surface, he said.
Morgan said he had to threaten

169
00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:29,160
them with investigation Latinas
and it was done under the cover

170
00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:31,000
of patient care.
Yeah.

171
00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,720
And then get this, they said.
The administrators from the

172
00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,120
hospital said we can't have
police running around the

173
00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:38,679
hospital or just accept the
patient my.

174
00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,080
Gosh, I suspect that being
murdered might have sent them

175
00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:45,640
more.
I'm just, I'm just spitballing

176
00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:47,560
here.
It would bother me a little bit,

177
00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,040
Yeah.
I mean, let me think police

178
00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,480
murder.
The thing is, with all of this,

179
00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:57,920
Morgan said he concluded he
couldn't prosecute Dr. Swango

180
00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:00,800
with at least some corroborating
physical evidence, such as the

181
00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:02,640
syringes, blood test, hair
samples.

182
00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:04,760
But none of them had been
retained by the hospitals.

183
00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:06,680
They had just gotten rid of all
of it.

184
00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:08,200
Was it nefarious?
Maybe.

185
00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:11,240
Was it just because they were
not handling in the situation

186
00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:12,600
very well?
Maybe they didn't put things

187
00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:14,840
together in time.
I think there were some of both,

188
00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:16,640
Morgan said.
The circumstantial evidence

189
00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,800
wasn't enough.
And he was very, very angry, He

190
00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:23,240
said at the hospital, doctors,
administrators, he said they

191
00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:25,000
covered it up.
That's just what it was.

192
00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,080
They covered it up.
Yeah.

193
00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:31,120
So interestingly, Robert Holder,
who is a lawyer from Ohio State,

194
00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:35,680
and he was involved in the whole
inquiry and what he said, quote,

195
00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:38,400
naturally, our review was
criticized by others after the

196
00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:40,200
fact.
But you can't come to a meeting

197
00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,080
thinking someone is a
complicated psychopathic killer.

198
00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:44,200
Can't.
Why not?

199
00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:48,080
And it's like, huh, apparently
you can't.

200
00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:51,360
And he also.
Holder emphasized, though, that

201
00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,240
no one then knew of any blemish
on Swango's character.

202
00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,520
That part was true.
In their defense, they didn't

203
00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:59,440
know everything else that had
happened, so I can see having a

204
00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,320
little bit of a a side glance on
this one.

205
00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:06,040
But Holder did say the complaint
was taken very seriously and was

206
00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:07,800
considered by the distinguished
group.

207
00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:10,840
Yeah.
Me too, it sounds like BS to me

208
00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:14,440
and he went on to talk a bunch
of legalese.

209
00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,360
Finally he said we could have
done better, there's no doubt

210
00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:19,520
about that.
And this is him looking back 13

211
00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:21,480
months later.
He said if we had some of the

212
00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:23,280
evidence that was later
produced, this would have been

213
00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:25,840
an easy decision.
He did say Holder.

214
00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:29,920
The lawyer said that the
university had since taken steps

215
00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:31,120
to improve relations between
the.

216
00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:34,200
Police and hospitals, great.
Thanks.

217
00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:37,120
OK, cool.
I know you're surprised, but

218
00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:41,360
we're not even finished yet.
Swango refused to talk to the

219
00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,880
Ohio investigators from prisons.
He was in prison at this point,

220
00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:48,560
fortunately, but he wouldn't
talk to the Ohio investigators.

221
00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:52,200
See, the deal is is he had gone
to prison for these very minor

222
00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:53,880
offenses.
They kept being able to get them

223
00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:55,720
on minor stuff, but they
couldn't get them on the big

224
00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:57,320
stuff because they didn't have
enough evidence.

225
00:10:57,680 --> 00:11:00,960
And so he had a right to say no,
they'll want to talk to you and

226
00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,480
didn't.
But what's interesting is in

227
00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,880
1986 he agreed to be interviewed
for 2020 program.

228
00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:10,080
Oh, interesting.
Yeah, they described the Quincy

229
00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:13,560
poisonings and mentioned the
investigations in Ohio.

230
00:11:13,560 --> 00:11:17,400
So the program described this.
Swango, they said, seemed

231
00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:21,120
unruffled by the allegations,
again realizing he is saying

232
00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:25,160
this from prison.
But he denied any wrongdoing and

233
00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:27,640
maintained that he had been
convicted in Quincy by tainted

234
00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:28,960
evidence.
Oh my gosh.

235
00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:32,640
And Judge Cashman had heard
about the investigation that

236
00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:36,200
Morgan had been doing and also
heard about the 2020 thing, and

237
00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:40,240
he said that what happened at
Ohio State is an absolute crime

238
00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:44,560
apart from what Seth Swango did.
He said if handled

239
00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:47,680
appropriately, he would never
have ended up in Quincy because

240
00:11:47,680 --> 00:11:50,280
if he had been stopped in Ohio,
he wouldn't have done what he

241
00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:54,160
did in Quincy, IL.
This will really trap your hide,

242
00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:57,320
if you will.
So with credit for time served

243
00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,640
and good behavior, Swango was
released in 2 1/2 years.

244
00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:06,040
So for all of this, he had been
convicted for five years and he

245
00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,040
had the good behavior and
everything else to.

246
00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,840
And a half years later, while in
prison, he had lost his license

247
00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,160
to practice medicine in Ohio and
Illinois.

248
00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:17,200
So there's that.
And then he had had some gaps in

249
00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:19,240
his employment history over the
next few years.

250
00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:21,600
Comes out of prison, I guess.
I don't know where it's at,

251
00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:25,440
McDonald's, who knows?
But he moved to Hampton, VA,

252
00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,760
where he applied unsuccessfully
for a license to practice.

253
00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,000
OK, good.
Somebody saying, uh huh, no

254
00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:33,920
kidding.
But still not over.

255
00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:37,920
Instead he went to work as a
counselor for career development

256
00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:40,240
center.
So he helped students get into

257
00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:41,880
medical and other professional
schools.

258
00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:45,120
But he was he was fired him in
1989.

259
00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:48,680
And do you know why somebody got
the Co workers became violent

260
00:12:48,680 --> 00:12:51,080
and said yes?
I knew it.

261
00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:53,600
Oh my God.
Like.

262
00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,960
Yeah, does this.
Just perpetuate and perpetuate.

263
00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:01,840
Well, police investigated, but
they didn't file any charges.

264
00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:04,800
But then he found work as a lab
technician, and he tested

265
00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,240
samples of coal to be exported
to France from the United

266
00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:09,600
States.
William Banks, the president of

267
00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,080
this company at a coal, told the
reporters that he found Swango

268
00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,280
to be an exemplary employee.
He didn't know that Swango had a

269
00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:18,000
medical degree.
Or he's Moon lying to get a

270
00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,680
paramedic as a paramedic at a
hospital nearby.

271
00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:22,720
Again, Moonlighting is a
paramedic.

272
00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:24,360
Why is he?
Still in medicine?

273
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,520
What's interesting is I guess he
didn't lose his paramedics

274
00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:28,360
license.
They never talked.

275
00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,960
Yeah, Swango still had this
girlfriend Rita, who had been

276
00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,920
with him the whole time since
the very beginning of all of

277
00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:37,200
these trials, which.
Is.

278
00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,360
I don't know.
Strange, Swango was given

279
00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:42,880
permission to get time off to
get married.

280
00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:47,600
So in the interview for The New
Yorker, the reporter asked

281
00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,360
Banks, this this guy who had
hired Swango for the coal

282
00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:52,680
company if anyone had become
mysteriously sick.

283
00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,280
Banks said, well, workers did
become ill.

284
00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:58,680
And he said, I became I'll one
day when when Swango was a poor

285
00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:01,120
employed there, I had to go in
the hospital.

286
00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,840
I felt very dizzy, nauseated,
weak and sweaty.

287
00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,840
I couldn't even stand up.
The doctor at the hospital

288
00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:09,880
thought it was due to a change
in his bank's medication.

289
00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:12,960
And then Banks said there was
another person that got sick,

290
00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,040
but he was a lot worse.
He was taken to the hospital in

291
00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:18,080
the near coma.
They thought it was diabetes, so

292
00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,120
that went well.
They didn't say whether or not

293
00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:25,480
he was fired or anything, but
Swango actually legally changed

294
00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:29,200
his name to David Jackson Adams.
Interesting at this.

295
00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:32,720
Point and he took courses to be
certified as an emergency, an

296
00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:35,080
emergency medical technician or
an EMT.

297
00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:37,680
So it would be like a paradise
junior.

298
00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,320
And it makes me wonder too, what
was happening in the paramedics.

299
00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:44,280
Obviously some were getting
sick, so maybe they put it

300
00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:45,720
together, but still.
His name?

301
00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:46,760
EMT.
He could run.

302
00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:50,040
Across these folks, he.
Changed his name to David

303
00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:52,840
Jackson Adams, but he had to
give his given name on my

304
00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:56,440
applications for his medical
residencies and everything else

305
00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:58,160
since it had to match his
medical degree.

306
00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,480
And in May of 1991, the state's
attorney office in Quincy

307
00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:04,880
received a letter about Swango
from Doctor Jeffrey Schultz, the

308
00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:08,520
chief of medicine at Ohio Valley
Medical Center, the letter said.

309
00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,880
We're considering offering him
his position and we want to be

310
00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:15,400
fair with this young man.
So the letter continued.

311
00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:18,000
Said quote.
Frankly, the severity of his

312
00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,000
punishment seems out of
proportion to the offense

313
00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,040
committed based on his
description.

314
00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:25,960
Wow.
According to a follow up letter

315
00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:29,560
from the Ohio Valley Medical
Center, so I know it said his

316
00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:32,320
conviction, which was
technically for battery, grew

317
00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:34,360
out of an altercation in a
restaurant.

318
00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:38,320
He said his he said his friend
was accosted and he intervened.

319
00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:40,920
Dr. Schultz received a response
from Quincy authorities.

320
00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,680
They didn't say exactly what it
was, but there were some copies

321
00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,080
of documents that that have been
sent to Doctor Schultz.

322
00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,440
And apparently at that point
negotiations with Doctor Swango

323
00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:52,400
ceased.
It's interesting to me that he's

324
00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:54,840
trying to get his EMT license
but clearly is trying to

325
00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:57,760
reinstate his doctor's license.
Or maybe he was just trying to

326
00:15:57,760 --> 00:15:59,920
practice without it.
I'm not really sure about that

327
00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:03,000
yet.
They did say that this whole

328
00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:07,160
inconsistency in his reporting
of what happened and what he was

329
00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:11,400
convicted of didn't work.
Not surprisingly, by late 1991,

330
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:15,160
Swango's relationship with his
girlfriend or now wife, Rita

331
00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,600
Dumas, and apparently failed.
It's unclear why.

332
00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:21,160
Well, I don't know.
It's pretty.

333
00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:22,720
Obvious to me, but it doesn't
say.

334
00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:26,360
But luckily, Swindo had met an
attractive young nurse named

335
00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,840
Christian Kenny in a class on
advanced cardiac life support.

336
00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:33,960
They became engaged, blah blah
blah and his Her mother said

337
00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,440
they all found him personable
and she was happy for her

338
00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:38,440
daughter.
He was good to her and there was

339
00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,040
nothing he wouldn't do.
He's going on living his life, I

340
00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:42,760
guess.
I'm not sure where he's working

341
00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:48,320
at this point, but he did apply
for a job as a doctor at

342
00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:52,680
University of South Dakota and
he had said right.

343
00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,600
So in his application they seem
to have a solid academic record,

344
00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,280
completed internships that were
distinguished, etcetera,

345
00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,200
etcetera.
And what he said, Swango said he

346
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,920
had not practice as a doctor for
some time and there was a gap in

347
00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,040
his resume.
But Swango indicated that he had

348
00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,560
been convicted battery after an
accident, I mean incident.

349
00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:15,480
Swango had said this conviction
was unrelated to medicine.

350
00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,960
So the doctor looking at this
interview, our application was

351
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,599
saying he was interested because
it just seems sort of weird.

352
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,599
And he said it was your
speculation, but he figured it

353
00:17:25,599 --> 00:17:27,400
had something to do with
domestic violence.

354
00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:29,960
The doctor said there was a
feeling there's no way he would

355
00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:31,160
hire the guy.
Of course not.

356
00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,080
We didn't need this sort of
difficulty.

357
00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:34,680
But he wanted to know what's
going on.

358
00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,920
So Doctor Salem has sent a bunch
of letters, some to Swango.

359
00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,440
Swango was still being a little
bit unexplained, you know,

360
00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,400
mystifying and unexplained and
everything else.

361
00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,600
It didn't make things better for
Doctor Salem with Swango, but

362
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:49,960
he's still really wondering what
was going on.

363
00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:53,640
And when he met Swango in
person, he was taken with his

364
00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:55,640
personality like everyone else
has been.

365
00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,280
And then he thought, well,
maybe, maybe it really isn't as

366
00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:03,680
bad as he thought It was weird.
But then Swango did say he'd

367
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:05,920
been charged with and convicted
of poisoning his fellow

368
00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,920
paramedics in Quincy.
He'd even said that he had lied

369
00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,160
about the conviction, describing
it as a bar room brawl.

370
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,800
I guess basically Swango was
saying he was innocent because

371
00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,280
the evidence was flawed, blah,
blah, blah.

372
00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:21,320
And so Doctor Salem said, this
is what Doctor Salem said.

373
00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:23,880
This is his quote.
He was very convincing.

374
00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:26,320
I wasn't experiencing dealing
with people with that sort of

375
00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:27,760
record.
I didn't even think about

376
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,680
calling the prosecuting attorney
or the parole officer or getting

377
00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:32,560
the records.
I still thought he had gotten a

378
00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:35,720
bad deal, he said.
Salem said he wouldn't admit

379
00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:37,920
medical students who couldn't be
qualified in the practice in the

380
00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:41,920
state, and he assumed that such
a felony conviction would cause

381
00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,240
a disqualification.
But Swango explained which of

382
00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:47,520
course he knew.
Swango explained that South

383
00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:50,680
Dakota was one of a handful of
states in which if a doctor said

384
00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:53,120
that he turned his life around,
he could be licensed to practice

385
00:18:53,120 --> 00:18:57,160
medicine.
Oh my golly.

386
00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:02,400
So Swango was Doctor Sam was
also in charge of accrediting

387
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:04,320
physicians hired at the local
veterans hospital.

388
00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,400
It was a major teaching location
for the university.

389
00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:11,240
Swango was subjected to a really
lengthy hiring process.

390
00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:14,680
They finally found him
acceptable, which is a little

391
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,160
bit unbelievable.
They got his medical school

392
00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,160
records, blah, blah, blah.
They've done all sorts of

393
00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:20,560
things.
They even found that he had been

394
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,080
suspended and everything else,
But it looks like they had some

395
00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,320
things that were strange, but
they weren't really sure what to

396
00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:28,520
do.
Doctor Salem put the letters of

397
00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:30,960
the various things, the problems
and stuff that happened in his

398
00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:33,520
file, and then he basically felt
like he had done his due

399
00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:35,760
diligence and sort of, he said
he forgot about it.

400
00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:37,800
This would not be something I
forgot.

401
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:42,200
But Doctor Sino began his
residency a few weeks later.

402
00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:44,880
Doctor Salem said he did fine.
He was very popular with the

403
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:46,280
staff.
He worked hard, integrating

404
00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:48,560
well, nice, intelligent,
etcetera.

405
00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:53,480
So it's just wild.
Anyway, in October of 1992,

406
00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,400
because of his license
revocations and convictions, the

407
00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,240
application for joining the
American Medical Association

408
00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,560
that Fango wanted was denied.
Denied.

409
00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,280
I believe somebody said no,
although it doesn't matter

410
00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:07,520
because it was just the American
Medical Association.

411
00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:10,520
You don't have to be a member of
the association to get anything

412
00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:11,920
going on.
But but.

413
00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:14,240
Still, it's nice that somebody
told him no.

414
00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:18,080
Yeah, Nancy Watson was in charge
of the applications and all of

415
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,160
that.
And she said this is weird, Who

416
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:24,240
the heck is this guy?
So she called Judge Cashman and

417
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,280
she said, do you know who this
guy is?

418
00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:30,000
And Doctor Cashman said he
proceeded to outline Swango's

419
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:34,000
career.
And Watson was just taken aback,

420
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,400
of course.
And she said, oh, my gosh, the

421
00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,000
ethics council's going to have
to really take a look at this

422
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,680
guy because now we're talking
about not just that sort of

423
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:45,600
thing, right?
Long story short, Dr. Swango was

424
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:50,400
looked at more closely.
Doctor Robert Talley had from

425
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,120
the University of South Dakota,
talked to Doctor Salem.

426
00:20:53,120 --> 00:20:55,560
If you remember him, he was he
was the one who had been looking

427
00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,200
into Swango, found a few things
that were inconsistent, but then

428
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:02,960
moved on with what he was doing.
And Doctor Salem said, yeah,

429
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:05,840
Doctor Swango does seem to have
some problems.

430
00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,480
This is Doctor Talley saying to
Doctor Salem.

431
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:10,680
And Doctor Sam said, yeah, I
know.

432
00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:12,520
I've heard all about them in
Illinois.

433
00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:14,640
And so this is their
conversation that they had

434
00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,760
recorded.
Doctor Talley said no, not just

435
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,320
that there was an issue of
deaths at Ohio State.

436
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,440
Doctor Salem had never even
heard of anything about that.

437
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:27,080
So when he, I don't know if he
never followed up with Ohio or

438
00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:30,480
what, Doctor Salem knew he was
going to be observing and

439
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:32,400
supervising Swango for the next
three days.

440
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,840
Salem had said nothing to Swango
about Ohio.

441
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:40,480
And then the Saturday evening
cable television call program

442
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:42,560
called Justice Files aired in
South Dakota.

443
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,520
It had the excerpt of the 2020
broadcast about their under

444
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:49,120
Swango.
Within 5 minutes, Doctor Salem

445
00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:51,640
got a call from an anxious
hospital employee who would

446
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,680
recognize Swango but remember he
was using a different name.

447
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:56,960
The local doctor called 15
minutes later.

448
00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,000
Doctor Salem said he was in his
office frantically reviewing

449
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:04,040
Swango's personnel file at
midnight using At midnight,

450
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,400
using hospital e-mail, he
suspended Swango from the

451
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,280
residence program and revoked
his pharmacy.

452
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:13,280
For When Doctor Salem got home
in the earliest hours of the

453
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,160
morning, he said he watched a
rerun of the program and that

454
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:20,600
had triggered the uproar.
And he realized that Swango had

455
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:24,720
been convicted in Quincy and
that the conviction had not been

456
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,240
a miscarriage of justice, as
Swango indicated.

457
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:32,800
All of this to say that at 9:00
in the morning, Salem called

458
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,680
Swango into his office and told
him he wanted to see him go over

459
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:37,560
some stuff.
Apparently, Swango was puzzled.

460
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,720
He was accompanied also by
Kristen Kenny, which is one of

461
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:44,400
the nurses.
And Salem.

462
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:48,440
No, she was.
I think she was one of the

463
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,520
reporting nurses saying there
was a problem, but.

464
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:53,640
Things didn't work out with
Rita.

465
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:55,640
Well, I could have gotten mixed
up.

466
00:22:55,640 --> 00:23:00,360
There are a lot of players here.
But Doctor Salem played a tape

467
00:23:00,360 --> 00:23:04,200
of the segment on a VCR of the
2020 show, and Doctor Swango

468
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,600
acted shocked.
He was interviewed in the show,

469
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,120
but he acted shocked.
That he he acted like he shocked

470
00:23:09,120 --> 00:23:12,920
that it existed.
Yeah, he said he was unaware of

471
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:17,880
it.
And Salem said Swango remained

472
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,640
remarkably calm.
He was convincing in his

473
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:25,040
demeanor, but it was on TV, so I
mean, it was out there from

474
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,760
prison.
Apparently Swango hire lawyer to

475
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:31,920
appeal his dismissal and Swango
called it Swangogate of.

476
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,640
Course he did.
And he called the local

477
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,560
newspaper claiming he didn't do
anything, etcetera, etcetera.

478
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,400
Oh, you're right.
His, his Tristan Kinney was his

479
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:43,920
fiance.
See, I'm telling a story and I

480
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:47,600
even forgot who she was.
Kenny said that she had never

481
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:52,600
seen any of this information
before, but later had she had

482
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,360
looked into it, I guess, and
found out some of the people

483
00:23:55,360 --> 00:23:58,560
from Ohio were talking about it.
But she stood behind her fiance.

484
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:00,720
And then they moved together in
Virginia.

485
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,000
I just, I just don't even know.
Basically.

486
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,680
Things didn't go well after
this.

487
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:11,440
And when the couple had moved
back to her parents house, her

488
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,440
parents, they were very
concerned about their daughter

489
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,960
and her well-being.
And Swango wasn't working.

490
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:18,720
They knew about what the trouble
lady had.

491
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,200
They said, you know what, this
isn't working because when she

492
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,160
came back, their daughter was
reclusive, different from when

493
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:26,720
she left.
And she was worried because

494
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,600
Christian was suffering from
vomiting and violent headaches.

495
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,040
So.
I cannot help.

496
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,200
Himself.
No, I don't think so.

497
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,480
And so Mrs. Cooper was concerned
about that, but she thought it

498
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:41,400
was just stress.
And then on June 1st, 1993, Mrs.

499
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,280
Cooper is Kristins mother.
They have different names.

500
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,800
I imagine divorce.
Remember, Missus Cooper was also

501
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:49,680
the big case.
OK, OK.

502
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,200
Interesting it.
Is interesting.

503
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,240
Unrelated people though, I
should have clarified that,

504
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:55,080
sorry.
No worries.

505
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:59,080
Anyway, on June 1st, 1993,
Swango was accepted for

506
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:03,040
residency in psychiatry at the
University of New York at Stoney

507
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:08,000
Brush and moved to Long Island.
So fortunately, Kristen stayed

508
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,200
behind and her mother noticed
she stopped wearing her wedding

509
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,320
rank.
But then July 15th, Kristen's

510
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,240
body was found in a park in
Newport News.

511
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,440
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, she had died from a

512
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,120
self-inflicted gunshot room.
There was a suicide note.

513
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,480
There's a suicide note found in
her truck which is nearby.

514
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,240
And she said it said I'm finally
at peace.

515
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:31,680
Can you imagine?
I cannot.

516
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,040
So secrets she must have
carried.

517
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,920
Yeah.
And so 2 police officers came

518
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,920
down to the the Cooper's house,
her parents and told them about.

519
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,480
They wanted them to identify
their daughter's body, etcetera.

520
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:45,880
They asked who she had been
seeing, what she they've been

521
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,120
doing with their life, etcetera,
and Misses Cooper told them she

522
00:25:49,120 --> 00:25:52,640
was engaged to Michael Swango
and they put their head in their

523
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:54,360
hands and moaned.
The officers did it.

524
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,440
Was.
So well, because they knew about

525
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:56,960
him.
Oh.

526
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,400
My gosh.
Oh my gosh.

527
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,240
The mom said they acted as if
something was really wrong, but

528
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,080
they didn't tell us anything.
As a result, the Coopers went to

529
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,160
the local library, and they
discovered before Swango met

530
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,760
their daughter, there'd been a
small article in the local paper

531
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:13,640
that mentioned his conviction
for poisoning.

532
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:16,280
I know it just gets worse and
worse.

533
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,840
I mean, he did not shoot her,
but he went may as well as.

534
00:26:19,360 --> 00:26:22,000
And apparently Missus Cooper was
going going through her

535
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,160
daughter's possessions, and she
discovered a journal that that

536
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:26,720
Kristen had kept in South
Dakota.

537
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:31,520
And she said Missus Cooper said
she was haunted forever by one

538
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:33,880
of the entries.
And it said, this is what

539
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,320
Kristen said.
I was so sick I was vomiting.

540
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,120
I couldn't hold my head up.
It hurt so bad.

541
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,640
Missus Cooper wondered whether
her daughter committed suicide

542
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,000
out of grief and shock upon
suspecting that her fiance was

543
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,680
poisoning her.
There's a lot more stuff that

544
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,800
happened, but since we don't
want to go into the. 3rd.

545
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:56,360
Portion of the episode, just
know that Michael Swango changed

546
00:26:56,360 --> 00:26:57,760
his name now to Michael.
Kirk.

547
00:26:58,120 --> 00:27:01,920
Very similar things happened.
People found him sociable,

548
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,800
etcetera, and one of the
patients that he happened to be

549
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:06,560
treating suddenly became
agitated.

550
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,640
Dr. Kirk had to give him some
medication and told the family

551
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:12,960
that he was now sleeping
peacefully, I'm guessing.

552
00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:17,120
It.
Turned out he was sleeping with

553
00:27:17,120 --> 00:27:21,640
the fishes and after the doctor,
his wife said that the doctor

554
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:26,160
had given him an injection of
vitamins and the nurse said,

555
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,040
wait a minute, doctors don't
give injections at all.

556
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,640
That's the nurse's job, right,
Which we talked about earlier.

557
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,280
Following Monday, after all this
was going on, the patient's wife

558
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:38,840
arrived to the hospital to find
her husband unconscious and on

559
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,400
the respirator.
When she asked what had

560
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:45,400
happened, Doctor Shirk said, I
hope it's nothing I did, the

561
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:47,080
wife said.
What are you talking about?

562
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,200
Doctor Kirk said.
He's in a coma and I know he's

563
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,720
not coming out of it.
Oh my God.

564
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:56,840
And yeah, and so Doctor Kirk.
Doctor knows that, you know what

565
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:58,800
I mean?
Like that's not a knowable

566
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:00,960
thing.
Not unless you know what you

567
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:02,760
did.
Yeah, exactly.

568
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:07,840
But Doctor Kirk then argued with
the patient's wife, saying that

569
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,440
the patient already suffered
irreparable harm and suggested

570
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,560
she agree to designate her
husband as do not resuscitate.

571
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:20,080
His wife said OK, but said the
Doctor Kirk's Doctor Kirk, his

572
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:24,960
manner seemed cold, detached and
his concern seemed to have gone

573
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,440
totally away.
So yeah, anyway.

574
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,040
Boring.
That's boring, right?

575
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:32,360
That is boring.
No big deal.

576
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:36,520
After all of this, they noticed
that he was not Doctor Kirk, and

577
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,200
they started putting things
together.

578
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,520
This background check that they
did.

579
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,240
And so I can go ahead and said
who he was for real.

580
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:47,560
They felt like this was a
particularly egregious omission.

581
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:49,440
Yeah.
Yeah.

582
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,560
Because this would have been
important in their decision.

583
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,280
But again, and he was being
persuasive and in his interview,

584
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:56,840
it seemed like everything was
cool.

585
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:01,280
But ultimately he got fired from
the residency again.

586
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,320
And after all of this, the there
were a few of the things that

587
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,520
happened and the FBI was
notified.

588
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,200
They they thought they were
going to try and get him.

589
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,080
And Swanko had been seen in
several places around town and a

590
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,400
group of nurses held a going
away party for him.

591
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,200
Can you imagine?
I know he appears to have been

592
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,880
dating one of the nurses even
though his his fiance, Kristen

593
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,880
Kidney had just recently died.
Because all of this happened in

594
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,880
a pretty short time frame, he
was finally fired and it was

595
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:33,040
based basically on the death of
that man that he gave vitamins,

596
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,480
air quotes to.
The cause of death was listed as

597
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,800
cardio pulmonary failure
secondary to encephalitis.

598
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:41,680
So Swango, like I said, got
fired.

599
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,640
Doctor Miller, who had been
involved in a lot of the reviews

600
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,680
on this, actually ended up
resigning because he felt

601
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,640
devastated from the the fact
that the procedures are so

602
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,440
egregious and, and someone had
to be accountable for that.

603
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:59,760
And he felt like he was doctor,
Doctor Miller felt like that was

604
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:01,880
his problem and his
accountability.

605
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,280
Yeah.
After all of this happened,

606
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,800
Swango had been investigated
again.

607
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,600
And it looked like there had
been other hospitals he applied

608
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,920
to, and he couldn't tell what
exactly happened.

609
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,360
But Swango may have done a
variety of things before 1999

610
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,320
that had not been reported.
There was a databank of

611
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,120
legislation and things,
penalties and things for

612
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:25,480
doctors.
But apparently it was still a

613
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:27,440
little sketchy.
Not all information had been

614
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,280
reported.
And now things are reported.

615
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:33,440
So doctors can't get away with
this as well, but by then on

616
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:34,480
the.
Internet, right?

617
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,920
So like, it's a lot easier to
get information about one person

618
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:39,880
from a lot of different places
all at once.

619
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,760
Yeah, after he got fired from
the hospital, he kind of just

620
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:44,560
get addled.
They were trying to find him,

621
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:46,040
but they couldn't figure out
where he was.

622
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:51,560
By 1994 he had managed to travel
to Zimbabwe and he obtained a

623
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,240
post as a doctor at a rural
hospital and according to the

624
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,920
Zimbabwean officials, he was
suspended after 5 patients under

625
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:00,960
his care died in suspicious
circumstances.

626
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,280
So they only took five patients
to suspend him and.

627
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,360
It's, it's stopping psychopathy,
you know, it's and it's

628
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:10,520
stunning.
Yeah.

629
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:12,480
And I still keep going back to
his history.

630
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,080
He seemed like a regular Joe.
This is just wild.

631
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,120
So he was suspended for these
five patients that died, and

632
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,080
there were several more that had
become seriously ill.

633
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,480
And they just said get out.
Several of the nurses that said

634
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,160
that they had received and
patients had received injections

635
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,160
from Doctor Mike.
Their complaints had been

636
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:33,840
dismissed like Crystal's doing a
gagging reflex there, but their

637
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:38,400
complaints have been dismissed
as hallucinations, so I know.

638
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:40,680
Again.
Right.

639
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:45,600
Exactly.
So in 1996, Doctor Swaggo

640
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,680
Swango.
Swango appeared to have left

641
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:53,440
Zimbabwe and then went and
practiced in Zambia and Nambia.

642
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:58,040
And then they ended up working.
He worked with a firm that

643
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,720
placed him in South Africa or
had placed doctors in South

644
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,240
Africa and Boston and arranged
for a new posting in Saudi

645
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,280
Arabia.
And then he tried to obtain a

646
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:12,960
visa in Africa to be admitted to
Saudi Arabia and was told it

647
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:14,760
would have to be issued in the
United States.

648
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,360
So Swango attained a ticket in
Zambia for flights.

649
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,400
Zambia, I'm sorry, for flights
from Johannesburg to Chicago and

650
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,280
from there to Portland, where he
had to arrange a pickup for a

651
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,640
Saudi Arabian visa.
Be flying before flying out same

652
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,560
day.
Well, good news is in June 1996,

653
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,520
he arrived at O'Hare
International Airport carrying a

654
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,160
passport issued in his own name
and it gave him away when custom

655
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,400
officials ran a routine check on
fugitives for federal charges.

656
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,760
Swango was arrested on a
relatively minor charge of

657
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,320
making a fictitious statement in
the matter under the

658
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,040
jurisdiction of the United
States government lying to the

659
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,360
VA.
So again he got stopped because

660
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:59,800
of a small charge.
But in in September of the same

661
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:03,440
year he which was 1996, Swango
was arraigned in federal

662
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,200
District Court on Long Island.
He pleaded not guilty and

663
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:10,600
remains and remained in custody
at the detention center while

664
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,480
the FBI was continuing to follow
him.

665
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,520
They had all kinds of charges.
They continue to search for

666
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,640
evidence.
They were hoping that he kept a

667
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:20,480
journal or something so they
could find that.

668
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,640
So they had the charge of
misrepresentation.

669
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,000
They added five counts of
getting possession of controlled

670
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,120
substances, which is the
hospital medications by means of

671
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,920
deception.
He was going to trial on January

672
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:35,600
5th.
In 1997, he was arraigned in

673
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,840
federal District Court.
He again pleaded not guilty,

674
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,760
refused to press request for
interviews about it.

675
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:43,720
Which, you know, probably was a
good idea.

676
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,600
Yeah, never happened anyway.
No, not really.

677
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:53,440
Oh, does that sound familiar
Anyway, and so the FBI continued

678
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:55,680
to get charges, etcetera,
etcetera.

679
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,480
They were having just a really
hard time to get charges because

680
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:01,720
they're everything was just
circumstantial.

681
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,560
And so they in 1997 were
looking, they went even to

682
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,480
Zimbabwe to see if there could
have any charges there.

683
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,440
He gets convicted of the
charges, the maximum of what

684
00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:16,239
they could put put together, the
maximum penalty for the crimes

685
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,440
for which he is was charged was
five years again.

686
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:23,639
And so Judge Cashman, who had
started this whole process in

687
00:34:23,639 --> 00:34:26,560
the 80s, said if he feels like
his responsibility to watch

688
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:30,760
Cashman's career, I mean, excuse
me, Swango's career because

689
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,120
because Cashman's worried that
Swango might come after him

690
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,960
because he was the only, the
only person who really stood up

691
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,719
to him.
And the judge said in 1997 that

692
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:42,920
there was a Christmas card to
the judge with Swango's

693
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,000
signature wishing his family a
safe Christmas.

694
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,320
Yeah, it is.
And so the judge was really mad

695
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,120
at the at the medical profession
because he said there were so

696
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:53,880
many things that should have
been done that weren't.

697
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:55,679
And there were numerous wrongful
deaths.

698
00:34:55,679 --> 00:34:59,160
And again, the judge had said
that if he had been prosecuted

699
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:03,080
for all of these things, then he
would, as I mentioned, the very

700
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,320
beginning, be one of the most
prolific serial killers around.

701
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:11,560
This is something that never
really ended in my opinion and

702
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:15,760
the judge's opinion satisfactory
because there were always these

703
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:19,920
loopholes, loopholes and the
legal system didn't work, the

704
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,760
medical profession didn't work,
loopholes but and it just

705
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:25,760
terrible.
Like, sweep it aside.

706
00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:29,120
We don't want this blemish on
our organization, right?

707
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:33,080
Like it's, it's horrible.
Yeah, all of these things.

708
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,720
Worked towards him being
considered just.

709
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,040
Circumstantial evidence and
things like that.

710
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,200
And they tried to prosecute him
when they did.

711
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:42,640
Like I said, it didn't go very
far.

712
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,280
There's no telling how many
people Swango killed in total

713
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:49,120
because they were hard to prove.
There is some reason to believe

714
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:50,640
that it was more than 60 people,
though.

715
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,560
But he can't.
It can't be proved.

716
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:55,480
Yeah.
And he was allowed to continue

717
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,320
his range of reign of terror for
years.

718
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:03,160
He had about 12 years that he
did all of this and it and just

719
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,600
it's so shocking that this could
ever happen.

720
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,920
Hopefully now again, like we
talked about that these things

721
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,960
couldn't happen like they did
then, but it's just it's just

722
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,600
mind boggling that that people
just pushed him off.

723
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:18,120
But I know I've been in places
where a doctor everybody knew

724
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:21,520
was not good.
He wasn't bad enough to take his

725
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:23,240
license, but he was someone I
could never.

726
00:36:23,240 --> 00:36:25,600
Refer anybody to.
I agree.

727
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,720
I guess the moral of the story
is if you see something, say

728
00:36:28,720 --> 00:36:33,200
something and don't stop saying
it until something happens,

729
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,640
because it's so easy to be
concerned about one's own

730
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:40,280
professional standing.
But people literally can die

731
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,120
because these wackadoodles going
on and on and on.

732
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:47,920
Yeah, like I said, this mirrors
really closely on Doctor Dutch

733
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,440
Doctor Death.
And I don't think I don't at

734
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,320
this moment, I don't plan to do
an episode on on him because

735
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:55,760
it's it's been so widely
covered.

736
00:36:55,760 --> 00:37:01,360
Yeah, but it's just just this
idea of not my problem and the

737
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:07,040
idea that in a society now where
not my problem is Trump's life,

738
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:09,120
right?
Like actually human life.

739
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,120
It's just, it's telling,
frankly, and it sucks.

740
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,040
Yeah, yeah.
And granted, this all happened

741
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,680
in the late 90s.
Well.

742
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,200
This time, right?
Right.

743
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,800
But we have story after story
after story where this happens,

744
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,440
and we had Dunch and we had the
nurse that was killing people.

745
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,680
I mean, there's 5 or 6 things I
can think of that have nurses

746
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,120
that were killing people in
similar sorts of ways where they

747
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,760
were just being sneaky and
slipping something in that was

748
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,640
potentially something that they
could explain away.

749
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,680
So really, this is not dear
listener.

750
00:37:43,240 --> 00:37:46,920
This is not to make you dubious
or scared, but if you think

751
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:48,320
something's wrong.
Ask.

752
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,320
About it.
If you think something feels

753
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,160
like it's not going in
direction, it should ask about

754
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:55,560
it.
It's your right.

755
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,800
And if you're a medical
professional, like I say, if you

756
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,360
see something, say something and
keep saying it until something

757
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,600
happens because it's not.
It's just not OK.

758
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:06,640
So I'm not cheerful.
Notes.

759
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,080
Well, I decided to go a little
bit further into this case and

760
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,280
do an update about Doctor Swango
because, you know, the case

761
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,360
happened.
In the 90s early 2000s.

762
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:20,000
So I thought something must be
written about him.

763
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,400
I found a couple of different
articles.

764
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,360
One was in The Columbus Dispatch
1 was an article that talked

765
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,360
about families suing over New
York serial killings.

766
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,600
National Library of Medicine had
some articles about it.

767
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,960
My favorite was Journal of
Ethics for the American Medical

768
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,080
Association.
And if you remember, American

769
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:41,040
Medical Association did not
accept Swango when he wanted to

770
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,400
re up.
For being a physician.

771
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:48,200
And the article was called
Lessons Worst case Scenario and

772
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:48,840
I thought.
That was cool.

773
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,960
Yeah, yeah.
Well, anyway, so Swango has been

774
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,800
described by many people as one
of the most prolific serial

775
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,920
killers in history.
There was a book written in 1999

776
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:03,480
by Pulitzer Prize winner,
journalist James Stewart, and it

777
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,200
was called Blind Eye.
I haven't read it yet, but I did

778
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:08,720
read some excerpts about it.
It seemed to be a really

779
00:39:08,720 --> 00:39:13,000
detailed account of what
happened and the history of what

780
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,720
Swango did in the time frame and
everything like that is really

781
00:39:15,720 --> 00:39:19,080
well documented, both in general
information and also it appears

782
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,680
in this book, for sure.
Swango is suspected in at least

783
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,320
15 deaths in the Midwest and on
Line Island and 20 more in

784
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:28,440
Africa, according to Stewart's
book.

785
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,800
This is what they're sure of,
right?

786
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:36,840
But in 2000, Swango was 45 and
he was sentenced to life in

787
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:40,840
prison in federal court in New
York for murdering 3 patients in

788
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,960
Long Island.
And this had happened 7 years

789
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:49,480
before, so it was in 1993.
Doctor Swango was already in

790
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,200
prison for possessions of
narcotics and fraud.

791
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,600
As we've mentioned throughout
the story, he's thought to have

792
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,880
murdered many more people,
possibly as many as 60, and

793
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,880
several colleagues.
Now the more research I did and

794
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,360
the more I looked at it, I even
think there's more than 60.

795
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:09,000
Right, they can't be directly
linked to him because so many of

796
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,080
them are essentially
circumstantial.

797
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:14,640
And if you remember too, there
were times where it seems pretty

798
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,080
obvious when you find rat poison
in his back.

799
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:20,920
I mean, excuse me, Ant poison in
his bag and people are sick and

800
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,760
have arsenic in their systems
seems pretty clear.

801
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,400
However, it is considered
circumstantial because nobody

802
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,400
saw him put them the containers
in his bag.

803
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:33,000
Nobody saw him put the stuff in
the the liquids, the tea or the.

804
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,880
I think both cases they or tea,
but they never saw it happen

805
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:39,080
directly.
So it could be argued that it

806
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:41,680
was planted or it wasn't really
his bag or blah, blah, blah,

807
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:42,680
right?
Right.

808
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:48,960
In this, in this court in 2000,
Swango did a plea bargain and he

809
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:54,080
did it to avoid execution.
Judge Jacob Mishler was the

810
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:59,960
judge on this case and Swango
said that he had administered a

811
00:40:59,960 --> 00:41:03,360
toxic substance.
That quote was likely to cause

812
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,920
death, the three patients.
That's what Swanko said.

813
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:10,760
That was his admission.
So he said guilty, your honor.

814
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:16,480
And he he said that in that
court and he also said it in a

815
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,360
Franklin County Commons plea
court in 2000.

816
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:21,680
And this was in front of Judge
Lisa Sadler.

817
00:41:22,240 --> 00:41:28,480
He said these things, they think
because it allowed Judge

818
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:32,200
Sandler, excuse me, Sadler to
convict Swanko of aggravated

819
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:36,040
murder in the 19 year old
Cynthia Mcgee's case.

820
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:37,920
I don't know if you remember
that that was from our first

821
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,960
part of the episode, but it was
1984 at Ohio State University

822
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:46,360
Hospital and it sentenced him to
life in prison just based on

823
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:48,480
that one case.
He had other sentencing that

824
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,720
we'll talk about in a minute.
But the reason they felt like he

825
00:41:51,720 --> 00:41:58,120
did this was because if he had
not been held there, he could

826
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:01,520
have been extradited back to
Zimbabwe and would have been

827
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:03,480
killed immediately.
Oh, wow.

828
00:42:04,240 --> 00:42:09,680
So whether it's his idea or by
recommendations of counsel, I

829
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:13,640
didn't see it saying exactly.
But the people who know how

830
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:16,840
these things work said that they
that's what they suspect.

831
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:20,360
At this trial, the prosecutors
read from Swango's Diaries.

832
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:22,800
OK, so here's my question about
that, though.

833
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:26,720
How many times have we heard
people read, wrote Diaries about

834
00:42:26,720 --> 00:42:30,160
what they did?
It's too many, too many.

835
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,320
There's just some.
There's just some people who

836
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,320
need to have something to go
back to reflect on, you know?

837
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:41,560
Well, seems to me that writing a
diary with steps one through 3

838
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,000
is an interesting choice I would
think.

839
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:49,320
I would say I'm going to commit.
These big Major Crimes, I think

840
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:52,440
I'm going to record them
somewhere so people know I did

841
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:55,760
these big Major Crimes and then
see what happens.

842
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:59,160
But I think one of the things we
talked about before, and I know

843
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:02,560
you said in the first part of
the series here, the two-part

844
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:06,520
series, is that Swango, like
many of these criminals, thinks

845
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:08,840
she's way smarter than anyone
else.

846
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:12,920
This probably plays into the
narcissism, which again, not

847
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,280
diagnosing because I don't know,
but from what I've seen and

848
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:19,520
heard of about narcissists is
that they are the best of

849
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:21,320
anything.
So these things couldn't

850
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,800
possibly be put together.
Swango was also noted to be a

851
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,720
devotee of books such as the
Torture Dr. and other thrillers

852
00:43:27,720 --> 00:43:30,440
in which doctors believe they
had God like powers over life

853
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:30,920
and death.
Yikes.

854
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:34,640
You know, and I hear things like
that, but they say, well, and

855
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:37,800
they true, they consumed a bunch
of true crime and like, yeah, I

856
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:40,760
do too, but I'm still not going
to go murder anybody.

857
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:43,360
Me neither.
There are a lot of true crime

858
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:45,400
enthusiasts who have not
murdered people.

859
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:47,840
Not even once that I'm aware.
Of not even once.

860
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:52,400
When asked for a motive, US
Attorney Gary Brown said

861
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:55,280
basically Doctor Swangle like to
kill people.

862
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:59,160
Yikes.
That was just what he saw as the

863
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:00,560
motive.
He just liked to do it.

864
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:04,440
And I think back of the other
cases that we've had that were

865
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:07,520
medically induced death, I guess
I'll call them.

866
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:10,680
They wanted to watch the
process.

867
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,080
Each time we've talked about it,
listen to these things.

868
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:16,160
They wanted to watch the
process.

869
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:18,320
I think they were less
interested in the fact that the

870
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:20,680
person died.
But what happened from point A

871
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,960
to point B, you know, Oh, look.
Oh, oh, that was interesting.

872
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:24,920
Huh.
That was cool.

873
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,320
I can reverse it by doing this.
Oh, Nope, didn't do it that

874
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:29,880
time.
Just need a little bit more.

875
00:44:30,240 --> 00:44:33,720
And it seems like, I wonder if
in his diary if it included

876
00:44:33,720 --> 00:44:36,560
stuff like that, what looked
like what was happening in the

877
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:38,120
process?
Not really sure.

878
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:39,760
I wonder.
Yeah.

879
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:41,600
Anyway, so I thought that was
interesting.

880
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:48,120
And as I said, these passages in
his notebook or journal talked

881
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:52,120
about the joy he described
feeling during his crimes.

882
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:55,520
Oh jeez.
And that kind of goes back to

883
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:58,240
even jolly Jane.
She just got a really big high

884
00:44:58,240 --> 00:45:03,080
from doing it.
And I just, I just don't get it,

885
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:06,720
which I feel probably as long as
I don't get it, I'm probably a

886
00:45:06,720 --> 00:45:12,520
safe person, Right?
Right.

887
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:15,640
Exactly.
Anyway, he was sentenced in that

888
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:19,840
2000 trial and sentencing to
three consecutive life terms

889
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:22,040
without the possibility of
parole.

890
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:27,240
Which seems fair ish, you know?
As far as I mean, I prefer that

891
00:45:27,240 --> 00:45:28,640
too with the possibility of
fraud.

892
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:31,600
For five years or whatever.
Yeah.

893
00:45:31,720 --> 00:45:33,200
Yeah.
But one of the things that I

894
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:36,400
learned is that he's serving
that sentence in the ADX

895
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:40,360
Florence Supermax prison near
Florence, Co And I'll tell you a

896
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,960
little bit about that place in a
minute because it's OK Not a

897
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,120
Country Club, OK.
Swango's conviction sentencing

898
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:50,720
prompted Ohio State University
make public thousands of pages

899
00:45:50,720 --> 00:45:55,240
of investigative reports, as
well as military gear and other

900
00:45:55,240 --> 00:45:59,280
items confiscated from Swango's
Kinney Rd. storage unit in 1985.

901
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:03,440
Wow.
And remember, 1985 is when they

902
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:07,200
found all this stuff in a
storage unit they had

903
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:09,480
confiscated, items that were
equipment he might have brought

904
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:12,200
home from the service in the
Marines, including ammunition

905
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:14,560
clips.
Makes me wonder if he'd had

906
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:21,640
these things from 1985 until
2000, what else was he planning?

907
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:24,600
Right, right.
I don't know.

908
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:26,760
Maybe he considered them war
memorabilia?

909
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:29,360
Don't know.
But also remember he was only in

910
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:32,560
service for two years.
And how do you just walk away

911
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,400
with those you know?
I don't think you're supposed

912
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:38,040
to.
I don't think you are.

913
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:42,640
No, no, interestingly.
Doctor Swango has been the topic

914
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:44,440
of many shows and podcasts,
right?

915
00:46:44,720 --> 00:46:48,000
I know I've heard of him before.
We found him in our research.

916
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:50,720
One of the shows was called Very
Scary People.

917
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:52,600
Have you ever watched that by
Donnie Wahlberg?

918
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:55,960
And they have so many different
peoples.

919
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:58,880
Peoples.
Wow.

920
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,200
They have so many different
people that they talk about.

921
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:08,120
And the one that he was on,
Doctor Swango was on, was

922
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:11,680
written about in 2020.
A journalist whose name was

923
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:15,240
Kelly Craft had been
corresponding with Longo for 11

924
00:47:15,240 --> 00:47:18,120
years at the Showtime of the
show in 2020.

925
00:47:18,720 --> 00:47:24,960
And I watched a video clip with
her when people said why she was

926
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:29,080
trying to figure out how he got
to where he was, how he went all

927
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:31,600
the way through medical school,
did all of these things.

928
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:35,360
On the one hand, as many of
these criminals do, they have a

929
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:39,240
whole persona that they've
developed and grown, and then

930
00:47:39,240 --> 00:47:40,920
they have the rest in the
background.

931
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:42,840
And we know people like that,
right?

932
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:45,520
Where that's been the case.
They've got this front.

933
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:48,840
Then there's something evil
lurking under.

934
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:54,120
What Kelly was trying to do is
to see if there were more people

935
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:55,760
that he would talk about
killing.

936
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:59,920
She.
Said that in a letter or some

937
00:47:59,920 --> 00:48:03,680
letters that she had received
from him is that he noted the

938
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:06,280
number of people he killed was
more than double of the people

939
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:09,960
he was convicted of killing.
Yeah, but sometimes narcissists

940
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:13,520
say stuff like that also.
They're like, no, no, you think

941
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:15,720
you've got, you think you've got
me figured out.

942
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:20,440
But no, no, no, I'm the best
serial killer there is.

943
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:23,360
I'm the most prolific serial
killer there is, right?

944
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:26,240
So it's well, it's entirely
possible.

945
00:48:26,240 --> 00:48:27,960
I'm not dismissing that it's
possible.

946
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:31,880
It's it's hard to know because
narcissist be narcissist and.

947
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:36,280
Narcissism that's right well and
also do remember though there is

948
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:39,200
some evidence that he did kill a
lot more than the ones he was

949
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:42,600
convicted for but they couldn't
really pin him on but that's I

950
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:45,040
think part of the reason that
they think it may have been as

951
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:48,720
many as 60 people you.
Know what's crazy to me is that

952
00:48:48,720 --> 00:48:52,200
seems like such a waste of
medical school.

953
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:55,440
If you're just going to poison
people with Ant poison, why did

954
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:59,560
you decide to be a doctor?
Like why go through all of that

955
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:02,920
work?
I mean, maybe I mean access, but

956
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:06,040
Even so, like there's other ways
to get access to be.

957
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:08,280
I just what a waste of medical
school.

958
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:11,120
What a waste of time and
training and talent.

959
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:14,880
Probably, Yeah.
Well, it makes me wonder if did

960
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:20,440
he start out planning on being a
serial killer or like to he

961
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:25,440
realized he has access to both
the patients, the equipment, the

962
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:31,720
drugs, the opportunity of time
with them and cover up the cloak

963
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:34,400
because he had the doctor's
code.

964
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:36,280
Nobody stopped the doctor.
What are you doing?

965
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:39,680
Where are you going?
As we talked about during the

966
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:47,240
first part of the series here,
that nurses said he gave vitamin

967
00:49:47,240 --> 00:49:48,840
shot.
No, that's not normal.

968
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:50,760
He gave what?
That's right.

969
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:53,360
Well, the patients don't know
that.

970
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:55,440
Their family doesn't necessarily
know that.

971
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:58,280
And so he can walk in in his
white coat and everything will

972
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:01,440
look like it's supposed to be.
In fact, maybe even making him

973
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:04,720
look more heroic because he's
doing things that are really not

974
00:50:04,720 --> 00:50:07,080
things that doctors usually do,
but he cares enough.

975
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:11,000
Right.
I wonder his case.

976
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:14,120
The Swango case here was also
featured on the American crime

977
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:16,880
show Unresolved Mysteries.
The series was called It Takes a

978
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:18,760
Killer.
He was also on a national.

979
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:20,560
Geographic Channel's Doctor of
Death.

980
00:50:21,240 --> 00:50:22,880
There's been a lot of Doctors of
Death, though.

981
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:24,240
I think we need a new name,
yeah.

982
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:25,960
I know we do.
I agree.

983
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:29,520
Or fewer doctors of death.
Well, OK, that's fair.

984
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:30,080
I would.
Vote there.

985
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:32,600
That could work, right?
Yeah.

986
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:36,240
Anyway, also, Doctor Swango was
described to have sociopathic

987
00:50:36,240 --> 00:50:37,600
traits.
Are we surprised?

988
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:38,880
Not.
At all.

989
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:44,320
No, even though we are unable to
diagnose, we did mention in #1

990
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:49,320
of this two-part series that we
thought he might be, and he

991
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:50,920
takes all the boxes.
Check, check.

992
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:55,080
And for a reminder for people
who aren't aware, a sociopath is

993
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:59,280
a person who has a personality
disorder characterized by a lack

994
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:03,560
of empathy and remorse and a
tendency to manipulate and

995
00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:06,760
exploit others.
And I think he checked those

996
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:08,160
boxes pretty hard.
I agree.

997
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:09,200
I.
Agree.

998
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:14,200
Then the article I was talking
about in the American Medical

999
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:16,720
Association Journal of Ethics,
again, it was titled Lessons

1000
00:51:16,720 --> 00:51:20,800
from the Worst Case Scenario and
is written by Aaron Egan, MDJD.

1001
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:25,160
So this person was also an
attorney, stated that Swango was

1002
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:27,400
a problem student with and a
problem resident.

1003
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:30,920
Because if you remember, he was
not really stellar in these

1004
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:33,600
things.
He squeaked by a few times with

1005
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:36,280
questions.
Maybe it wasn't quite right.

1006
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:37,480
Some people thought he was
cheating.

1007
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:39,880
Reminds me of Doctor Dutch.
Exactly.

1008
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:44,680
And that is a similarity that I
think I've seen and heard in

1009
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:48,720
these various scenarios.
His medical school classmates

1010
00:51:48,720 --> 00:51:51,880
feared for the safety of his
patients, calling him Double O

1011
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:54,080
Swango, meaning he had a license
to kill.

1012
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:59,480
Jeez Louise, you'd think that
would bring a flag or two, yeah.

1013
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:03,600
Like where are the
investigations by the freaking

1014
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:07,160
medical school man?
Well, and if you remember there

1015
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:11,720
were a lot of not see somethings
not say somethings and so people

1016
00:52:11,720 --> 00:52:15,760
saw them but again as we.
Discussed that a lot of times

1017
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:18,880
people think, oh it can't really
have been that that doesn't make

1018
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:20,880
sense.
No, that not it just must have

1019
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:23,520
misinterpreted or I don't want
to get in trouble.

1020
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:25,640
I don't want to be involved in
all of this.

1021
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:28,760
I don't know.
And I feel like people were

1022
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:33,280
worried enough to call him
Double O Swango, but maybe they

1023
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:35,960
were thinking it really just
couldn't be that true.

1024
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:39,080
Maybe.
I'm not sure.

1025
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:42,240
Well, and I guess there's also a
level of rumor mill, right?

1026
00:52:42,240 --> 00:52:43,920
I mean, nicknames come from the
rumor mill.

1027
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:47,320
Not everybody witnessed him
killing somebody, right?

1028
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:50,840
So it's just that his reputation
precedes him, so to speak.

1029
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:54,040
I mean, unless somebody was
like, I got to look at, you

1030
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:56,080
know, this, this nickname
disturbs me.

1031
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:59,160
I got to look into this myself.
I can see how it would get just

1032
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:03,800
passed along and and overlooked
as a moniker and nothing more.

1033
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:06,560
Well, and also, if we think
about the fact that they're in

1034
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:09,360
medical school, they have about
12 minutes of sleep a night,

1035
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:11,000
right?
If they're lucky.

1036
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:13,760
It's better in many cases now,
but it's still not great.

1037
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:17,640
It may have boiled down to just
plain not having time to be able

1038
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:19,360
to deal with it.
And we think about the

1039
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:22,280
paramedics he was working with
and how their shifts rotated.

1040
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:24,400
So they didn't always the same
people were not working with

1041
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:26,440
them every time in medical
school.

1042
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:28,760
They're not going to be working
with the same people every time,

1043
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:33,160
and that's where those things
could fall through the cracks.

1044
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:35,640
But we do.
If you remember, there were some

1045
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:39,680
administrative actions that
really should have been made

1046
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:41,200
known to other.
People.

1047
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:45,320
And now that we have the
computer systems and the links

1048
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:48,200
that we can do, it's a whole lot
easier to figure out than it was

1049
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:51,040
back in the late 90s, early
2000s.

1050
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:55,000
So to give benefit of doubt it,
there was some greater

1051
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:57,080
difficulty in disseminating
information.

1052
00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:00,960
Now, I just wanted to mention
the doctor Egan in this report

1053
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:04,040
from the American Medical
Association says this is a quote

1054
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:06,640
from her book or excuse me, her
article.

1055
00:54:06,720 --> 00:54:09,560
Most problem physicians aren't
depraved people like Michael

1056
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:13,680
Swango, but many good doctors
provide care while impaired,

1057
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:18,240
most often by sleep deprivation.
Right, as I was just mentioning,

1058
00:54:18,240 --> 00:54:19,480
you know, they may get 12
minutes.

1059
00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:22,160
She further said there's
evidence that after a night on

1060
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:24,800
call, an event that happens
dozens of times in every

1061
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:27,320
residence, training residents
are impaired to the level of

1062
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:32,000
people with sleep disorders.
And sleep deprivation is well

1063
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:34,760
recognized source of cognitive
impairment in physicians.

1064
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:38,680
Human beings.
True, true.

1065
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:41,400
I watched some sort of
documentary many years ago how

1066
00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:44,120
they compared people who were
drunk versus people who were

1067
00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:47,320
just sleep deprived.
And the sleep deprived people

1068
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:50,640
were often more impaired than
the drunk people.

1069
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:54,680
Not to say that either is OK,
but it surprised me that a lack

1070
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:57,560
of sleep can affect our system
so severely.

1071
00:54:58,240 --> 00:55:02,840
And we're going to be doing a
episode soon about this sleep

1072
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:05,640
disorder concern.
And so hold on to your socks

1073
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:10,000
listeners, but sleep deprivation
is well recognized source of

1074
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:12,400
cognitive impairment in
physicians.

1075
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:16,400
And as we said generally, and
she further notes that a problem

1076
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:21,040
peer in quotes, it's called a
problem peer, indicate that

1077
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:24,360
dealing with a peer who is
routinely unsafe is difficult.

1078
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:26,880
So for some of the reasons we
just mentioned is they may have

1079
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:31,080
rotating shifts, they may not
really know what to do or how to

1080
00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:32,960
deal with it.
And she said that most

1081
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:35,680
physicians probably have contact
with an unsafe physician at

1082
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:37,480
least once in the course of
their career.

1083
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:39,880
Now when you think about.
Oh, go ahead.

1084
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:42,560
It's interesting you say that
because I had a colleague, not a

1085
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:45,760
well, I had a colleague that was
a physician hospital, but I had

1086
00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:49,440
a colleague that was a nurse and
we were Co ADON assistant

1087
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:53,440
directors of nursing of a, of a
long term care facility, but is

1088
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:55,120
commonly known as a nursing
home.

1089
00:55:56,080 --> 00:56:00,000
Rumors squirreled about her
abusing opioids.

1090
00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:05,760
And I was like, no, no, no, no.
And I, she was never like

1091
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:10,040
convicted of it or anything.
But as I look back at it years,

1092
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:14,840
years later, I sort of started
to see like I could see where

1093
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:17,840
there were signs that maybe it
was actually true.

1094
00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:22,680
And so my point being that
because I liked her and I was,

1095
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:25,960
we were colleagues and friends.
And as far as I could see, she

1096
00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:28,120
was doing her job as well as I
was doing my job because they

1097
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:30,320
were the same job.
I may have overlooked something

1098
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:33,960
that was obvious to others.
Well, and I think it's like a

1099
00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:36,840
lot of things.
When we have constant contact

1100
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:39,960
with someone, we may not notice
some of the more subtle changes.

1101
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:45,600
If her behavior, or in this
case, Michael's behavior, change

1102
00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:49,360
a little over time, we may not
see it as much as someone coming

1103
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:51,720
from the outside and going,
well, they were doctor then and

1104
00:56:51,720 --> 00:56:52,880
they killed somebody the next
day.

1105
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:53,840
That's not right.
Yeah.

1106
00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:57,200
Yeah, right.
Well, you may not have seen the

1107
00:56:57,200 --> 00:56:59,680
potential of her having
behavioral changes as they

1108
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:01,800
happen subtly.
It's like losing weight.

1109
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:04,640
If I haven't seen a person for
many months, I'll notice it.

1110
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:06,480
Where if I see them every day, I
may not.

1111
00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:09,960
I feel like we sort of get a
picture in our mind of what we

1112
00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:14,320
expect to see, so we do.
One of the things that this

1113
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:20,000
article included was Doctor Egan
said most physicians, like I

1114
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:24,320
said, will deal with someone who
is somehow not OK.

1115
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:28,640
And medical field is is
primarily self regulated.

1116
00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:32,440
If something goes wrong, they
have review boards, they have

1117
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:36,040
things like that usually within
a facility unless it's an

1118
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:39,080
especially egregious error.
So there's going to be review.

1119
00:57:39,080 --> 00:57:43,000
There might be an opportunity
for the provider to present

1120
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:45,880
their point of view and their
perspective and maybe it's just

1121
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:48,200
a general record review.
Depends on what it is.

1122
00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:51,840
Because this is the self
regulating organization, there

1123
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:55,680
may be some things that get
overlooked or just not dealt

1124
00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:58,160
with direct.
And the problem too is if you're

1125
00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:01,360
ever in a situation where you
have to address someone or

1126
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:04,280
confront someone about something
you thought that wasn't right,

1127
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:06,680
that can feel really
uncomfortable for sure.

1128
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:10,520
And if you think that they are
personally responsible for

1129
00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:15,080
damage or danger to someone,
then it may make you move a

1130
00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:18,240
little bit faster, but but then
maybe not.

1131
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:20,560
Again, is it really my job?
Who's in charge?

1132
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:23,240
What am I supposed to do?
And it's hard, it's hard to

1133
00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:26,000
tell.
Doctor Egan said she believed

1134
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:28,320
that every professional who
stays quiet when faced with

1135
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:32,120
impairment or incompetence is
morally culpable for any injury

1136
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:34,520
caused by the impaired or
incompetent individual.

1137
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:39,800
And I agree, especially when you
have a suspicion there's one

1138
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:42,960
thing.
But say, the nurse who found the

1139
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:48,440
syringe gave it to Don, and then
the Don just sort of didn't.

1140
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:53,360
Yeah, she sort of said something
about, but not really in any

1141
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:56,200
sounded like really aggressive
or assertive way.

1142
00:58:57,080 --> 00:59:00,480
So it just went away.
Well, is she culpable?

1143
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:03,160
Is her hospital administrator
culpable?

1144
00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:04,520
We don't know because we weren't
there.

1145
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:06,160
But who is?
Somebody's got to be.

1146
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:09,120
It's not just Swango because he
was allowed to carry on.

1147
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:11,920
To know that there's got to be a
collective accountability is

1148
00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:14,680
really important.
That is something I think that

1149
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:18,760
needs to be more carefully
addressed generally, not just in

1150
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:22,760
medicine, but everywhere.
In medicine though, like in a

1151
00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:25,320
lot of things you have things
like medicine or you have law

1152
00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:31,000
enforcement where some of these
things can be deadly, then it

1153
00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:34,000
probably needs to address be
addressed a little sooner than

1154
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:35,720
$20 missing out of a till,
right?

1155
00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:36,720
Right.
Right.

1156
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:40,720
Because, you know, value and
problem.

1157
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:45,360
And if we are in a medical field
where we can't feel like we can

1158
00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:50,360
trust the professionals, that
would be devastating in so many

1159
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:54,360
different ways.
It's true and well, I mean,

1160
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:56,800
we're creeping towards that.
I think I see it more and more

1161
00:59:56,800 --> 00:59:59,080
online.
I've even seen comments to the

1162
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:03,240
effect of doctors are a joke and
doctors have no use in our

1163
01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:06,160
society anymore.
And I, I know that's probably

1164
01:00:06,160 --> 01:00:09,880
not the mainstream opinion, but
it's, it's out there and it's, I

1165
01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:12,320
mean, I've seen, I'm in the
mainstream and I've seen it, you

1166
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:15,400
know, well, and part of that, I
mean, not to get political, but

1167
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:18,760
part of that is because of who
we have leaving our.

1168
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:25,000
Health and Human Services and
our medical to the CDC and stuff

1169
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:27,600
like that.
I mean, frankly, that's a big

1170
01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:30,160
part of it.
Some might say atrocious.

1171
01:00:30,520 --> 01:00:36,480
Anyway, one of the things that
comes up in these sort of cases

1172
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:40,520
though is fear of litigation.
So if I go in and I say I think

1173
01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:44,000
if I were the nurse saying I
think Doctor Swango just did

1174
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:49,680
this and it was proven wrong or
at least not substantiated, what

1175
01:00:49,680 --> 01:00:53,680
liability do I have?
Am I going to now be part of a

1176
01:00:53,680 --> 01:00:56,160
slander suit?
Am I going to have libel

1177
01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:57,800
problems?
What's going to happen?

1178
01:00:58,040 --> 01:01:01,520
Which makes me afraid to say
anything because I need my

1179
01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:04,080
license.
How does that happen?

1180
01:01:04,080 --> 01:01:08,360
It's supposed to be anonymous.
I believe in in cases like that.

1181
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:12,560
But once things go to court, I
don't think they still can.

1182
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:14,520
So there are some things to
address.

1183
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:19,360
And doctor, Doctor Egan said a
lot more about this, about their

1184
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:22,360
financial burden on the
hospital, about justice and

1185
01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:24,440
things like that, which I
thought was a really interesting

1186
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:26,840
article to read.
And if you want more details on

1187
01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:28,880
it, you can go back and read
that article in the American

1188
01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:32,920
Medical Association Journal.
Just for information, Michael is

1189
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:36,760
now 71 years old and continues
to be incarcerated in AVX

1190
01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:38,320
Florence.
As I mentioned, this is a

1191
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:41,680
supermax facility.
It's nicknamed Alcatraz of the

1192
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:43,480
Rockies.
Oh, wow.

1193
01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:46,280
And it contains some of the most
dangerous criminals in the

1194
01:01:46,280 --> 01:01:49,120
United States.
Interestingly, I read, I read

1195
01:01:49,120 --> 01:01:51,720
the website about this place
because I'm like, that's

1196
01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:54,040
interesting.
It said The majority of current

1197
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:57,120
inmates have been placed there
because each has an extensive

1198
01:01:57,120 --> 01:01:59,680
history in other prisons
committing violent crimes,

1199
01:01:59,880 --> 01:02:02,280
including murder against
correction officers and fellow

1200
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:05,720
inmates.
And they're kept in

1201
01:02:05,720 --> 01:02:10,040
administrative segregation and
solitary confinement for 23

1202
01:02:10,040 --> 01:02:13,160
hours a day.
Oh, what a horrible life.

1203
01:02:13,160 --> 01:02:15,600
I'd rather be put to death.
Oh absolutely.

1204
01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:19,840
They have one hour outside their
cell and it can occur anytime,

1205
01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:22,120
day or night.
They're kept under restraint

1206
01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:23,760
now.
I don't get that.

1207
01:02:23,760 --> 01:02:26,200
They're saying I'd like to be
out at 11:00 PM.

1208
01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:27,960
Would that work?
I believe.

1209
01:02:28,720 --> 01:02:30,880
This is a.
Rotation system, because they

1210
01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:33,560
have so many people and they
have to keep them individually

1211
01:02:33,560 --> 01:02:37,000
segregated even when they're
outside, they can't have other

1212
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:38,000
people.
The outside.

1213
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:39,920
Time for the cells for
exercising, a phone call.

1214
01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:43,320
If they burn the privilege,
their diet is restricted to

1215
01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:46,680
ensure that food cannot be used
to harm themselves or to create

1216
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:48,720
unhygienic conditions in their
cell.

1217
01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:53,600
Don't really know what that
could mean don't either, but

1218
01:02:53,600 --> 01:02:56,120
what is that bread and cheese?
I don't know.

1219
01:02:56,640 --> 01:03:00,800
Some cells have showers.
These shell showers are run on a

1220
01:03:00,800 --> 01:03:05,400
timer to prevent flooding.
This is primarily to reduce the

1221
01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:07,720
amount of handling of inmates
that correctional officers have

1222
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:10,160
to perform because again, these.
People.

1223
01:03:10,600 --> 01:03:14,000
Have been the worst of the
worst, and not only have they

1224
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:17,480
done whatever crime that got
them into a maximum security

1225
01:03:17,480 --> 01:03:19,520
prison, they've also done much
beyond.

1226
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:21,040
That.
Right, right.

1227
01:03:21,040 --> 01:03:23,160
One cell block at Florence
Lawrence was once known as

1228
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:26,480
Bombers Row because a number of
the particularly notable

1229
01:03:26,480 --> 01:03:29,760
terrorists include domestic
terrorists such as Timothy

1230
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:33,160
McVeigh, Ramzi Youssef, Ted
Kaczynski.

1231
01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:35,840
They were there at this
facility.

1232
01:03:36,480 --> 01:03:39,080
So.
I mean, they're still around and

1233
01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:43,600
I was looking at a picture of
one of the cells and it's

1234
01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:47,400
completely cement.
It's all poured concrete and

1235
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:49,640
they have a window and it's 4
feet.

1236
01:03:49,640 --> 01:03:52,600
Tall.
And four inches wide.

1237
01:03:52,680 --> 01:03:55,960
Each one of them has a position
so that the prisoner cannot tell

1238
01:03:56,240 --> 01:03:57,920
what part of the facility
they're in.

1239
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:03,520
And that's for the safety of
everyone, including that way

1240
01:04:03,520 --> 01:04:07,440
they can't plan an escape
because they can't see out and

1241
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:11,640
they also can't communicate with
anyone else inside the cell.

1242
01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:15,800
Usually there's a door if it's a
solid, if it's a one person

1243
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:19,360
cell, they have a door of some
kind, whether it's a physical

1244
01:04:19,360 --> 01:04:23,200
open closed door or sliding, A
sliding gate sort of door.

1245
01:04:23,200 --> 01:04:29,440
But this one has a row of bars
from one wall to the next and

1246
01:04:29,440 --> 01:04:32,400
then the door.
So a person can come through the

1247
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:35,000
door.
And if the prisoner is somehow

1248
01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:38,360
out of hand, they don't still
don't have to have physical

1249
01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:40,360
contact with them.
Wow.

1250
01:04:40,440 --> 01:04:42,880
I just can't even imagine
working I.

1251
01:04:43,200 --> 01:04:46,920
Was just saying who is employed
there?

1252
01:04:47,040 --> 01:04:50,040
They've got to pay, like a lot I
bet.

1253
01:04:50,080 --> 01:04:55,000
Yeah, it's wild.
Anyway, so this place is some

1254
01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:57,400
place I certainly wouldn't want
to to be.

1255
01:04:58,440 --> 01:05:00,920
Or would I want to be hanging
out with the people that are

1256
01:05:01,120 --> 01:05:03,280
there?
Yeah, that's scary.

1257
01:05:04,120 --> 01:05:08,200
So our good friend Michael now I
would say.

1258
01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:11,280
It's kind of.
Surprising that he's lived to 71

1259
01:05:11,280 --> 01:05:14,560
in such an environment.
I didn't even think of it until

1260
01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:18,080
just now, but I wonder what the
lifespan typically is for a

1261
01:05:18,080 --> 01:05:20,000
prisoner.
Because the one would think in

1262
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:22,280
this case they're safe from
other prisoners, right?

1263
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:26,080
So many of the times that people
get killed in prison is because

1264
01:05:26,080 --> 01:05:29,400
they were attacked by another
gang or whatever.

1265
01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:32,160
But in this case, they have only
themselves.

1266
01:05:33,040 --> 01:05:36,520
They have those outside
influences are gone, but I don't

1267
01:05:36,520 --> 01:05:41,640
know I have no idea what the the
lifespan is for prisoners like

1268
01:05:41,640 --> 01:05:45,480
this, but but it sounds most
unpleasant at best.

1269
01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:47,320
That was the update.
I thought it was really

1270
01:05:47,320 --> 01:05:49,840
interesting to see where he
could be.

1271
01:05:49,840 --> 01:05:52,840
Now there are further charges
that could happen and like in

1272
01:05:52,840 --> 01:05:56,720
many of these cases, once they
reach a certain point of three

1273
01:05:56,720 --> 01:06:00,360
life sentences, can't really
punish that person more and

1274
01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:02,280
while.
He could face.

1275
01:06:02,880 --> 01:06:06,160
Charges and potential immediate
execution if he went back to

1276
01:06:06,160 --> 01:06:09,880
Zimbabwe, he's not going there.
It really would, I mean.

1277
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:12,640
And they're not asking for him.
No, why would they want him?

1278
01:06:13,280 --> 01:06:17,360
But I know there's interesting
and just every level of it is

1279
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:20,160
shocking to me.
Each time I thought he probably

1280
01:06:20,160 --> 01:06:22,840
got as far as he could get.
It's like, now what are you

1281
01:06:22,840 --> 01:06:25,520
doing?
I saw pictures of him.

1282
01:06:25,640 --> 01:06:29,400
You know, they talk about how
approachable he was and the the

1283
01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:33,360
good old boy sort of thing.
And like a regular guy.

1284
01:06:33,360 --> 01:06:35,280
It's not like he was super
handsome.

1285
01:06:35,280 --> 01:06:39,080
He was just a regular guy, but
apparently a smooth talker and

1286
01:06:39,080 --> 01:06:42,120
and a really good gas lighter.
Do you have any final thoughts

1287
01:06:42,120 --> 01:06:44,840
on this situation or this
scenario that you've?

1288
01:06:45,440 --> 01:06:49,040
No, but I, as we were talking,
it reminded me of another case

1289
01:06:49,040 --> 01:06:51,840
that I had just read about, just
coincidentally.

1290
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:53,560
I just ordered it to you.
Actually, I just texted it to

1291
01:06:53,560 --> 01:06:54,960
you because I think you'd be
interested.

1292
01:06:55,360 --> 01:06:59,760
But it surprises me how many of
the how many doctors we see that

1293
01:06:59,760 --> 01:07:03,320
not only do they do these
nefarious deeds, but they take

1294
01:07:03,320 --> 01:07:07,680
action to like weasel their way
into people's lives and to take

1295
01:07:07,680 --> 01:07:10,760
more control of like their
medical care than they should

1296
01:07:10,760 --> 01:07:14,560
and stuff like that.
And that's seems to be a common

1297
01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:17,080
thread with these quote UN quote
Dr. deaths.

1298
01:07:17,200 --> 01:07:21,560
And so I just as you were
talking about, you know, him

1299
01:07:21,560 --> 01:07:23,640
doing that, it just reminded me
of this article.

1300
01:07:23,640 --> 01:07:28,960
And I it just, it's fortunately,
these doctors are vastly

1301
01:07:28,960 --> 01:07:30,680
outnumbered by good doctors,
right?

1302
01:07:30,680 --> 01:07:34,240
Like these are the very, very
much exception edge case

1303
01:07:34,240 --> 01:07:36,440
situations.
But it's still, it's still

1304
01:07:36,440 --> 01:07:38,520
surprising how many we still
see, right?

1305
01:07:38,520 --> 01:07:43,680
Like 1,000,000 is too many.
Exactly, and I feel like these

1306
01:07:43,680 --> 01:07:47,120
cases though will go down and
down as as patients and the

1307
01:07:47,120 --> 01:07:52,080
general lay people are becoming
more educated on what is air

1308
01:07:52,080 --> 01:07:53,880
quotes normal or expected
behavior.

1309
01:07:54,320 --> 01:07:57,320
Yeah, well, and we have the
Internet too that like again, I

1310
01:07:57,440 --> 01:08:00,120
always want to caution against
self diagnosing on the Internet

1311
01:08:00,120 --> 01:08:04,120
and I extra 100 million percent
want to caution against using

1312
01:08:04,120 --> 01:08:06,960
WebMD.
But still there are reputable

1313
01:08:06,960 --> 01:08:09,640
sources on the Internet and
great places you can go that you

1314
01:08:09,640 --> 01:08:13,160
can do some, you know, some
research on your own so that you

1315
01:08:13,160 --> 01:08:17,640
can challenge your doctor or
make him him or her explain

1316
01:08:17,640 --> 01:08:20,720
things in a more understandable
way to you or consider

1317
01:08:20,720 --> 01:08:22,560
alternatives or whatever the
case may be.

1318
01:08:22,920 --> 01:08:26,439
And so I think that will also
result in what in the numbers we

1319
01:08:26,439 --> 01:08:28,279
see.
Although I do have to say I'm

1320
01:08:28,960 --> 01:08:31,479
going back on my own thing when
you when it comes to narcissists

1321
01:08:31,479 --> 01:08:35,960
and psychopaths, they are
charming and they can gaslight

1322
01:08:36,319 --> 01:08:41,160
with mastery.
And so maybe, maybe we won't.

1323
01:08:41,399 --> 01:08:45,279
Maybe.
I mean, there's, there are very,

1324
01:08:45,279 --> 01:08:48,520
very smart people who get
manipulated into doing very

1325
01:08:48,520 --> 01:08:52,160
stupid things.
Yeah, all the time, All the

1326
01:08:52,160 --> 01:08:55,439
time.
But I think doctors now expect

1327
01:08:55,439 --> 01:09:00,080
to be interviewed and to be
questioned on things more than

1328
01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:02,960
they ever used to.
And I think that's a good thing.

1329
01:09:03,040 --> 01:09:07,640
I think it can get out of hand
when a person researches Web MD

1330
01:09:07,760 --> 01:09:10,680
to the NTH degree and said well
I'm pretty sure I'll have a car

1331
01:09:10,680 --> 01:09:13,880
mogul of the left metatarsal OK,
but no, it's on.

1332
01:09:13,880 --> 01:09:16,640
That's a mole, right?
And.

1333
01:09:16,960 --> 01:09:21,800
So, but I think that there is a
balance in everything and we

1334
01:09:21,880 --> 01:09:27,279
really, really want to remind
people that on the whole, people

1335
01:09:27,359 --> 01:09:32,040
in medicine is what we're
Speaking of now, are really

1336
01:09:32,040 --> 01:09:36,479
there to assist and to move
health and Wellness forward.

1337
01:09:36,920 --> 01:09:39,760
And there are some things in our
system that need to be fixed as

1338
01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:45,240
we stay aware as a consumer of
medical care and talk to people

1339
01:09:45,240 --> 01:09:48,399
if we feel like something's not
quite right, talk to people, ask

1340
01:09:48,399 --> 01:09:51,720
questions.
And if you feel like something

1341
01:09:51,720 --> 01:09:55,360
isn't right, you don't have to
keep going back to that person.

1342
01:09:55,640 --> 01:09:58,520
Just don't.
If you don't feel like it's not

1343
01:09:58,520 --> 01:10:03,080
right enough to report, then if
it's not right for you, it's not

1344
01:10:03,080 --> 01:10:04,680
right for you.
It doesn't matter why.

1345
01:10:05,600 --> 01:10:09,000
And on that note, I'd like to
tie this up with a ribbon and

1346
01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:11,200
not talk about Michael Swango
again.

1347
01:10:11,240 --> 01:10:13,080
How about you?
Sounds good to me.

1348
01:10:13,680 --> 01:10:15,440
All right, thanks.
If you guys have anything you

1349
01:10:15,440 --> 01:10:18,720
want to talk about, let us know.
Or if you've had any experience

1350
01:10:18,720 --> 01:10:23,080
that you wondered if it was
regular or not, send us an

1351
01:10:23,080 --> 01:10:24,360
e-mail.
We'd love to hear your stories.

1352
01:10:26,080 --> 01:10:27,600
Thanks.
All right, if you've made it

1353
01:10:27,600 --> 01:10:30,240
this far, clearly you like a
little mayhem with your

1354
01:10:30,240 --> 01:10:32,320
medicine.
Or you just enjoy hearing us

1355
01:10:32,320 --> 01:10:34,160
ramble about weird medical
mysteries.

1356
01:10:34,480 --> 01:10:36,040
Either way, we'd love you for
it.

1357
01:10:36,280 --> 01:10:38,960
So hit that follow or subscribe
button wherever you're

1358
01:10:38,960 --> 01:10:40,880
listening.
And toss us a rating or review

1359
01:10:40,880 --> 01:10:43,880
while you're at it.
Helps other curious weirdos find

1360
01:10:43,880 --> 01:10:45,800
the show.
And we know.

1361
01:10:45,800 --> 01:10:47,200
There are a lot of you out
there.

1362
01:10:47,520 --> 01:10:50,040
Oh so many.
Come join the chaos.

1363
01:10:50,080 --> 01:10:53,240
Thanks for listening to
Medicine, Mystery, mayhem, and

1364
01:10:53,240 --> 01:10:55,880
sometimes Murder.
Do you have an idea for an

1365
01:10:55,880 --> 01:10:58,760
episode of this podcast?
Just want to say hi?

1366
01:10:59,120 --> 01:11:02,160
You can get in touch with us at
our M4 pod.

1367
01:11:02,600 --> 01:11:09,120
That's OURM
thenumberfourpod@gmail.com.

1368
01:11:09,720 --> 01:11:13,640
We read every e-mail, and
sometimes we even respond just

1369
01:11:13,640 --> 01:11:16,360
like real professionals.
Because we are.

1370
01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:21,520
Old friends with new twists and
lots of body bags.