Once Bitten, Twice Shy

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Welcome to M4 Medicine, mystery,
mayhem, and sometimes murder.

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I'm Andrea Marciano and RN with
35 years of experience across

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various fields.
From direct patient care in

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hospitals to home health,
geriatrics, and injury medicine,

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I face life, death, and
everything in between.

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And I'm Crystal Miller and RN
with 13 1/2 years of experience.

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My work spans home health,
Hospice, emergency care,

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geriatrics, and occupational
health.

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From the chaos of trauma based
quiet moments with patients,

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I've seen stories that defy
explanations.

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We've been friends for over 25
years and as nurses we've shared

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countless stories that have left
us and our families speechless.

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Now we're bringing those stories
and many more to you in

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medicine, mystery, mayhem, and
sometimes murder.

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Each week, we'll uncover cases
that challenge the boundaries of

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medicine, sharing the human
stories behind the science.

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From puzzling medical mysteries
to shocking real life crimes,

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we'll bring you stories that'll
leave you questioning everything

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you thought you knew while.
We're both experiencing these

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nurses.
We want to make it clear we're

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not here to give medical advice.
This podcast is about

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storytelling, education and
exploration, not diagnosing or

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treating medical conditions.
This is medicine, mystery,

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mayhem and sometimes murder.
Let's dive in.

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Hey Crystal, how are you today?
I'm doing all right.

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How are you?
I am very well, thank you.

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I'm having family visiting and I
hear you have something coming

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up.
Yeah, but it's funny because

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Ketter is coming tomorrow and as
you know, she's one of my twins

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and her twin was just here a
couple weeks ago.

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So I'm getting some some family
visiting going on.

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It's great.
I like it.

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I like it.
Yeah, 'cause my daughter is here

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with one of my other
granddaughters and my one

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granddaughter, Eliza, as you
know, our one granddaughter,

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Eliza, as you know, has been
here since the 1st of the month.

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So we've been having a lot of
fun.

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Yeah, it is fun.
And also it's the first time

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that anybody's seen my new
house, so that's fun too.

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Like I'm so excited to show it
off because I love it so much.

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That's awesome.
I'm very glad for you.

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Thank you.
So what do we have for topic

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today?
Oh, we've got a good one.

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This is a very interesting one.
I can't wait to share it with

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you, and I can't wait to hear
your thoughts on it.

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This is the story of Cindy James
and just the weird things that

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happened to her.
My sources today are Who Killed

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Cindy James by Neil Hall, The
Deaths of Cindy James by Bob

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Mitchell, an Unsolved Mysteries
episode from 1991, Death by

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Unknown Event podcast narrated
by Pamela Adlon, who I love on

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Audible, and then various media
reports from Vancouver Sun, The

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Globe and Mail, and 5th Estate,
which is on CBC.

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Or Canadian.
Broadcast company.

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Nice.
I may have misheard you, but did

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you say deaths as in plural?
The deaths of Cindy.

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James So that must make the
story plot thickened.

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Good.
All right, let's hear it.

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Let's get started.
Louis, get my correct mouse

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here.
Too many meese going on here.

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OK, I'm using two computers so I
can talk to you on one and read

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on the other.
OK.

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Cynthia Elizabeth Hack, known to
the world as Cindy James, was

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born June 12th, 1944 in Oliver,
BC to Otto and Matilda Hack,

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though proud of their Russian
heritage.

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Matilda.
Yeah, Tilly actually is her

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nickname.
She went by Tilly.

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Tilly Hack.
Otto and Tilly Hack love it

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though.
Proud of their Russian heritage.

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Cindy's early childhood was
overshadowed by strictness and

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corporal discipline from her
father.

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Her adolescence carried the
family from Oliver to Ottawa.

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Following her father's military
postings, he was in the Royal

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Canadian Air Force.
Raised within a strict,

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emotionally reserved home,
Cindy's early Diaries recall her

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father's corporal disciplinary
methods and implied feelings of

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fear, confinement and longing
for emotional safety.

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So right off the bat, she is not
being raised with the most

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caring, loving parents and
family life.

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Yeah.
So she was one of six children.

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At 18, Cindy left from nursing
school in Vancouver and by 1975

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was working as a nurse
coordinator at Blendheim House,

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supporting emotionally disturbed
children.

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Colleagues remember his
empathetic and professionally

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solid in 1966.
So I don't know why this jumped

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to 1975 and then all of a sudden
we're going back to 1966, but

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whatever.
Yeah, I thought I misheard you.

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I know I'm Yeah, this is what
happens when you try to add

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details after the fact, OK?
In 1966, Cindy married doctor

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Roy Makepeace, despite family
concerns over the 18 year age

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gap and speculations that Roy
had taken advantage of Cindy's

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naivete.
The union lasted until 1982, so

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16 years.
Cindy herself later claimed

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emotional and physical abuse.
Upon separation, Cindy felt

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relief, but then Dun Dun Dun,
the threats begin to appear.

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The story.
Just you wait, my friend.

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Just four months after the
split, Cindy begin experiencing

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a chilling new reality.
After telling friends she sensed

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A prowler, she received her
first harassing phone call on

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October 7th.
An unknown voice alternated

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between silent breathing and
threats on October 11th.

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Heavy breathing came through her
line.

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The next day of whisper.
I'll get you one night, Sydney.

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On October 13, an uncraceable
call stated You fucking bitch,

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I'll get you.
Followed with a slurred sexual

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threat.
On October 15th, her porch

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lights were smashed. 2 days
later a rock shattered window.

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On October 19th, which is my
dad's birthday, incidentally, a

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pillow in her bedroom was
slashed.

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These incidents prompted her to
start keeping detailed logs and

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seeking police help.
Detective Pat McBride became

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involved and even moved into her
home briefly, both for

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surveillance and companionship.
A neighbor witnessed a strange

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man lurking near her property,
confirming Cindy's fears but not

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enough for police to make an
arrest.

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As 1982 closed, Cindy found a
photo of a corpse pinned her

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windshield with a note made from
cut out letters from magazines.

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Nope, Nope, Nope.
And during Christmas, a note

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with a slashed throat image each
designed to terrorize working on

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January man.
On January 27th, 1983, friend

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and Co worker Agnes Woodcock
discovered Cindy unconscious in

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her backyard, a nylon stocking
tightly bound around her neck.

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Cindy claimed 2 men had dragged
her into the garage, threatened

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to kill her sister Melanie
assaulted and strangled her and

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inserted a knife in her vagina.
Medical examination found no

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physical evidence, triggering
growing skepticism from police.

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After relocating twice, Cindy
received a chilling letter early

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February with words run rabbit,
run, Bang, Bang, you're dead.

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A few months later, she painted
her car a new color and hired

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investigator Ozzie Cavan, who
noted her growing arsenal of

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defense tools, oil cans, pepper
spray, panic buttons.

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From October to November in
1983, three cats, bound and

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strangled, appeared in her
garden.

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At the same time, the home faced
nightly abuse, breaking in slash

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phone lines, obscene notes
crafted for magazine letters on

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her car and home, and silent the
evil phone calls at work.

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On January 30th, 1984, Cavan
heard radio interference and

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rushed to find Cindy on the
living room floor, paralyzed, A

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paring knife through her hand, a
note pinned with cutouts reading

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Now You Must Die, cunt.
An evil mark was found on her

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arm, yet drug testing detected
no substances.

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Blood smeared in the kitchen in
circular patterns suggested

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frantic cleaning efforts.
A polygraph test taken by Cindy

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was deemed inconclusive, so they
polygraphed her because.

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They think more and more she's
lying, right?

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Yeah, they're just just getting
more and more suspicious of of

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her fabricating this.
So Fast forward a year, January

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1985.
During hypnosis, Cindy claimed

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Roy, her ex-husband, had
dismembered 2 bodies while

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smearing blood on her face
during a 1981 vacation.

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Melanie, who was present for the
hypnosis, denied any knowledge

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of such events, raising doubts
about Cindy's claims.

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What's interesting about this is
Melanie raised doubts about

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Cindy's claim, but her family
never deviated from believing

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her.
So Melanie innocently saying,

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yeah, I don't know what she's
talking about, raised doubts

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within the investigators, even
though she himself didn't doubt

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what Cindy was claiming.
I thought that was interesting

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on June on In June 1985, Cindy
overdosed on prescription

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medication and was hospitalized
involuntarily.

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She denied suicidal intent and
reported that she had been

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forced to take the medication.
On July 2nd, the police

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wiretapped her phones and a
taped call with Roy ended with

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Roy calling Cindy insane,
denying all allegations.

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Surveillance produced no
confirmation of assault or

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threat from third parties.
July 27th of 1985, raw rotten

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meat was left at her doorstep.
August 5th through the 21st, a

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series of small fires ignited in
her home.

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Firefighters discovered no signs
of forced entry.

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Wait, they were in her own home?
Small fires in her home.

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A detective suggested Cindy had
started them herself.

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Psychologist Doctor Anthony
Marcus, reviewing her records,

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proposed she might be suffering
from dissociative identity

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disorder tied to early trauma.
And for those who don't know,

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dissociative identity disorder
is what used to be called

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multiple personality disorder.
So this psychologist, and I'm

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not even sure if this
psychologist was one that was

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treating her or if he was just a
guy.

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It was like just reviewing her
records.

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So it kind of makes me think he
was just kind of a guy being

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like, well, this is what I think
without actually without

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actually talking to her.
So he might have been hired by

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the police to see if they they
have any input, Yeah.

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So he agreed to psychiatric help
and treatment for depression,

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anorexia and other disorders and
relocated to Richmond in

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December of 1985.
On December 11th, Cindy was

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found semi conscious in a ditch
near University of British

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Columbia campus.
She was hypothermic hog tied

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with a stocking around her neck,
clothed in men's boots and a

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single glove.
She recalled nothing since her

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lunch break.
Hypodermic marks suggested

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sedation.
This, by the way, this stocking

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around her neck is a running
theme.

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In early 1986, Cindy formally
adopted the surname James and

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told her father she knew her
attacker's identity but refused

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to say who it was.
Well, let's back up though.

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When you saw the when you saw
the hypodermic, when they saw

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the hypodermic marks, did they
do blood tests again and see if

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they found any drugs?
That is a great question, but I

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might actually have the answer
to that one.

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Let me see real.
Yeah, because I mean, before

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they had tested and there was
nothing untoward, although there

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are so many substances that
aren't random or routinely

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tested for that it could have
been something obscure or

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something that metabolized.
For surely, for sure.

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And also sometimes people will
take medication that they

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already have and and it can make
a difference.

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But then that should may have
been tested and found to be

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above normal levels or something
too.

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But they found nothing the first
time.

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This time.
They they just said that she was

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found unconscious in her garage,
stripped from the waist down,

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hog tied once again with the
stocking around her neck.

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Wait, is this the same date?
Hold on, I want to.

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I think I'm not doing the same
date.

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Let me just check here.
Yeah, because the one you were

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talking about was the ditch, I
believe.

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Yeah, it was the ditch.
So so I so December 11th of 85.

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I think she was sedated don't
know.

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OK, no worries.
OK, so one of the things that I

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find fascinating is that she was
clothed in men's boots.

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I don't know why they would use
the word clothed, but she was

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wearing men's boots.
Men's boots as single glove.

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And she was naked from the waist
down otherwise.

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Nope, that was in 88.
This is still 85.

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Oh, I'm sorry.
Sorry, no, it's my fault.

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I also don't know why she
adopted the surname James.

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00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,440
Like I don't know where it came
from, but she did so for

228
00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:59,960
whatever reason.
Yeah, I mean, obviously to

229
00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:03,720
pretend or to hide her identity,
but yeah, I wonder if James was

230
00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:07,440
an old family name or something.
But then to me, if it were, I

231
00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,760
wouldn't use it in case.
I mean, so far, if it's not

232
00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:14,160
Cindy herself, it feels like it
would be someone who knew her

233
00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,320
well, like her ex or someone
like that.

234
00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:19,600
Who would know if it was a
family name is what I'm saying?

235
00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:25,520
Right in August 1987, back at
Richmond General, working at

236
00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:29,360
Richmond General as a nurse.
OK.

237
00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:34,800
Cindy's home security alarm
triggered after a broken window.

238
00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:37,560
Days later, her porch lights
were loosened.

239
00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:43,120
A glass cutter slit her basement
door in February of 1988,

240
00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:47,000
another taped window shattered
on October 11th.

241
00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:50,000
Roy.
Roy received voicemails

242
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:54,240
threatening Cindy dead meet
soon, which he turned over to

243
00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:56,240
his lawyer.
You can find these audio

244
00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:57,840
recordings on the Internet, by
the way.

245
00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:00,440
They're kind of hard to
understand, hard to hear and

246
00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:04,640
hard to understand, but they do
exist.

247
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,480
Some of them, I mean, I think
it's mostly the ones that are

248
00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:11,760
these voicemails to Roy. 15 days
later.

249
00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:16,280
So October 26th, here we go.
Cindy was found in her garage,

250
00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,680
hog tied, naked from the waist
down, the stocking around her

251
00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:21,800
neck.
Once again, not expert.

252
00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,240
Robert Chisnall later testified
this.

253
00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,960
Cindy could not have tied
herself with such complexity

254
00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:31,800
under sedation conditions.
So in this case, she was

255
00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:34,640
sedated.
In January of 1989, she had a

256
00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:38,280
tenant named Richard Johnston
moved into her basement in

257
00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:42,880
April, notes reading Soon Cindy
were cut from letters and left

258
00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:46,040
on site.
Messages in due on her

259
00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:50,760
windshield appeared sleep well
sent hounds track someone over

260
00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,440
her backyard fence, but no
suspect was identified.

261
00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:56,120
Wow.
May 25th, 1989.

262
00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:59,720
Cindy collected her paycheck at
4:00 PM, reported to friends she

263
00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:03,040
had been fined for weeks,
shopped at Safeway and deposited

264
00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:05,360
money at an ATM.
At 7:59 PM.

265
00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:09,360
She'd arranged installation of
an infrared alarm and was

266
00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:11,160
planning a bridge night with
friends.

267
00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:13,120
That night.
Her home was locked.

268
00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,200
Car was missing from the
driveway.

269
00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,320
Her car was later found in the
Blundell Shopping Center lot,

270
00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:21,600
which is where the Safeway was.
Blood smeared on the driver's

271
00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:23,400
door.
Groceries and a wrapped gift

272
00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:25,320
inside.
Wallet contents beneath.

273
00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,640
It says beneath the car, but I
believe it was actually beneath

274
00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:32,360
the driver's seat, not beneath
the car yet.

275
00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:34,600
No sign she had returned home
that night.

276
00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:36,440
Her home?
Wait, what?

277
00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:37,960
She didn't have bridge that
night.

278
00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:40,600
She did have bridge that night.
She didn't show up.

279
00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:43,800
Oh, so she didn't show up?
Oh, it wasn't at her house.

280
00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:45,640
I don't know, actually.
Oh, OK.

281
00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:47,640
Somehow I thought you said it
was at her house.

282
00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:49,400
And then.
No, just that she had been

283
00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:50,800
planning a bridge night with
friends.

284
00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,120
It doesn't seem Where got you.
I extrapolated.

285
00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:55,880
Yeah.
So her home remained orderly.

286
00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,120
Nothing seemed disturbed, but
her disappearance instantly

287
00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,680
triggered a major search effort.
Here's what's why.

288
00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:08,280
That was May 25th.
June 8th, 2 weeks later,

289
00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,720
municipal worker Gordon Starr
Chuck stumbled on Cindy's body

290
00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,319
in the yard of an abandoned
house at 8111 Blundell Road.

291
00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:19,280
She was hog tied behind her
back, stocking around her neck,

292
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,359
one leg in BlackBerry bushes,
coat nearby.

293
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,839
Spray painted caustic messages
engulf the scene.

294
00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:30,920
Some bitch died here on a wall
and devil inside the house.

295
00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:33,960
A line encircled her body in
orange paint.

296
00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:37,800
A forensic path.
A forensic pathologist noted

297
00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:40,320
that her restraints had cut to
the bone.

298
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:45,240
Toxicology revealed 10 * A
lethal, lethal dose of morphine,

299
00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,800
plus massive doses of florazepam
and diazepam.

300
00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:52,360
And I know diazepam is Ativan.
I'm not sure what florazepam is.

301
00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:55,000
Didn't look it up.
Sorry about that.

302
00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:58,320
Yeah, it's one one of the
sedatives.

303
00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:02,000
Yeah, it's one of the
tricyclics.

304
00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:08,000
Oral ingestion was confirmed for
the florazepam but the morphine

305
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,000
method was undetermined, which I
don't know how that would be

306
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,040
undetermined because if she had
florazepam in her stomach and

307
00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:18,360
not morphine in her stomach, but
there was morphine in her blood,

308
00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:21,760
then I would say probably was
not oral ingestion.

309
00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,480
Right, right.
Well, and just for information,

310
00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:30,680
the flazepam is primarily used
for insomnia, has other uses,

311
00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:34,920
but the main the brand names are
Dalmain and Dalmadorn.

312
00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,160
Oh, never heard of them.
No, I hadn't either.

313
00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:43,280
So pharmacologist.
Pharmacologist testified that if

314
00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:46,880
given intravenously or by IV,
Cindy would have lost

315
00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,120
consciousness within minutes.
I mean I think it'd be more like

316
00:18:50,120 --> 00:18:53,480
seconds, but that's based on my
own experience of being given

317
00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,000
morphine.
Where like I was given morphine.

318
00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:57,760
I blinked and it was 5 hours
later.

319
00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:02,600
Right.
Cindy would have lost

320
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:07,120
consciousness within minutes,
yet no syringe was found.

321
00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:11,480
Worth noting further liver
mortis suggested her body had

322
00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:14,240
been moved postmortem.
Hmm.

323
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:15,160
Well, sorry.
Go ahead.

324
00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:19,280
Oh, I was gonna say, everything
you've described has clearly

325
00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:21,720
indicated an escalating
perpetrator.

326
00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:26,040
Yeah, from from pretty mild
stuff that could be confused for

327
00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:30,000
her doing to herself, then to
these really much more intense

328
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,600
and impossible for her to have
done to herself.

329
00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,800
Yeah, well, that's the thing and
we'll get to it.

330
00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,440
But that's The thing is we hear
it and we say impossible.

331
00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:43,480
The investigators and their
witnesses went to great lengths

332
00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:47,640
to air quotes prove that it was
not impossible.

333
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:48,920
And like I said, we'll get to
that.

334
00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,000
A memorial was held for Cindy on
June 14th, which was her 45th

335
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,880
birthday, and it was covertly
videotaped by the Royal Canadian

336
00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:00,560
Mounted Police.
The abandoned house where she'd

337
00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:02,320
been found was demolished soon
after.

338
00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:06,800
The coroner's inquest spanned 40
days, including testimony from

339
00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:10,240
over 80 witnesses, and became
the costliest in British

340
00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:13,320
Columbia to date.
Key testimony included.

341
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:15,840
This is going to piss you off.
Or at least it pissed me off.

342
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,800
Doctor Paul Termanson diagnosing
Cindy with hysterical

343
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:23,240
personality disorder, also known
as being a woman.

344
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:26,920
It's drives me crazy.
Absolutely.

345
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,360
Doctor Wesley Friesen suggested
borderline personality disorder

346
00:20:30,360 --> 00:20:33,600
and PTSD, plus possible
childhood sexual abuse, though

347
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:37,240
Cindy never confirmed it.
Not expert Chisenol demonstrated

348
00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,760
Cindy could self bind within 3
minutes before the senators

349
00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:42,800
rendered her helpless.
Where I make peace.

350
00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:46,400
Accused family abuse and alleged
police targeting.

351
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:48,280
Or an alleged police targeting.
Sorry.

352
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,360
Cindy's medications were
discovered postmortem and

353
00:20:51,360 --> 00:20:55,120
discarded by her parents.
Her sister found a glass cutter,

354
00:20:55,120 --> 00:20:57,320
syringe kit, and catheter in her
room.

355
00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:03,000
Now I'm not sure if they mean IV
catheter or urinary catheter.

356
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,000
It doesn't specify, but I'm
going to guess it's an IV

357
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,880
catheter because I feel like a
urinary catheter is just a.

358
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,000
Non sequitur, right?
Right.

359
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,800
Not really even related unless
she had had the urinary catheter

360
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,640
on her neck, which she did not.
Which she did not exactly.

361
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:22,840
The coroner testified.
Quote, this case is so bizarre

362
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,360
it defies any rational
explanation.

363
00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:28,840
UN quote.
In the end, the jury concluded

364
00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:31,520
her cause of death was an
unknown event, unable to

365
00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,040
determine homicide, suicide or
accident.

366
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:39,240
Over 7 harrowing years, Cindy
James reported nearly 90

367
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,240
incidents, physical attacks,
threats, vandalism and

368
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,480
terrifying calls.
The Royal Royal Canadian Mounted

369
00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:49,040
Police spent over $1,000,000
investigating, ultimately

370
00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,600
finding no corroborative
evidence and suspecting many

371
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,760
attacks were staged.
Her family never lost faith in

372
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,720
her, convinced she was silenced
by a predator who escaped

373
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,880
justice.
Cindy's case captured captured

374
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:05,680
international attention.
It was profiled on Unsolved

375
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:10,360
Mysteries in 1991, inspired 2
books Who Killed Cindy James?

376
00:22:10,360 --> 00:22:13,200
And The Deaths of Cindy James
that same year, and again

377
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,120
resurfaced as an Audible
podcast, Death by Unknown Event

378
00:22:16,120 --> 00:22:18,680
in 2021, narrated by Pamela
Adlon.

379
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:20,880
To this day, the truth remains
elusive.

380
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,960
Was Cindy a helpless victim of a
sadistic stalker?

381
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,080
Or was she a woman in
psychological crisis, staging

382
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:29,040
events that spiraled beyond
control?

383
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,600
Her family remains convinced of
foul play, while many

384
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:36,040
authorities and experts suspect
she fabricated much of it and

385
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,000
ultimately may have taken her
own life.

386
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,840
Was Cindy destroyed by a hidden
stalker or by a collapsing

387
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:48,040
psyche?
A lot of the stuff, not the

388
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:53,400
least of which now that kind of
medication use would be more

389
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:55,760
difficult because meds are much
more controlled.

390
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,440
But I remember back in the day
in the hospital, we could

391
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:00,600
essentially walk around and get
whatever the heck we wanted and

392
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,240
give it to our patients or walk
out the door with it or

393
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,320
whatever.
And I mean that was I started

394
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:08,320
being a nurse in the 80s, eighty
9.

395
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,920
And I mean I could see being
able to have access to those

396
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,240
meds.
The thing that catches the most

397
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,720
for me is saying and that she
could.

398
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,760
I mean among other things, but
especially that it would take 3

399
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:21,520
minutes for her to lose
consciousness.

400
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:27,440
Now I have an issue with that
partially because she could.

401
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,720
I guess she could have done some
testing with herself to find out

402
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,960
how fast she passed out and know
what time she had.

403
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:38,720
But to do the kind of ligature
to oneself that went to the

404
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:42,720
bone, Yeah.
And I mean, self preservation

405
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,080
would, I would think, make a
person pass out before she could

406
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:50,800
get to that point.
And also you'd have to be pretty

407
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,480
far gone to be able to just keep
going anyway.

408
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:59,040
And to think that it took 3
minutes to pass out, I can't see

409
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,320
without hesitancy because they
talk about people who do

410
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,920
self-inflicted wounds.
There's almost always some sort

411
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,800
of hesitancy.
So if she were strangling

412
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:12,720
herself with that ligature of a
nylon, then I would think that

413
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,320
there would be some hesitancy.
Maybe it started in one point on

414
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,320
her neck and moved and shifted,
had to be adjusted because

415
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:23,120
unless she had a stick or
something that she was wrapping

416
00:24:23,120 --> 00:24:27,800
it with, then I can't see how
she could even not have it slide

417
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,640
or something like that and not
pass out.

418
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,760
And did they talk about any
highlight bone fractures or

419
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,760
anything like that?
I mean, there's, there's so many

420
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,320
different things that would have
to happen for her to be able to

421
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,680
even physically do that.
And unless you were like

422
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,200
twisting herself around a tree
or something, which she wasn't

423
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,040
and she made the circle around
herself.

424
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,520
I mean, all of that is just
really that seems stretched.

425
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,480
And I can see that there maybe
were a few that she may have

426
00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,840
fabricated just to get people to
pay attention, maybe because,

427
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,080
OK, so people are ignoring me.
So maybe I'll sort of stage a

428
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:05,760
couple to.
Escalate it, yeah.

429
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:07,520
Right, right.
To get some attention.

430
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,480
But I don't think that's the
case.

431
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,160
Obviously I didn't know her, I
wasn't there.

432
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,320
But the final event I can't see
how she could have done to

433
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:19,160
herself without all kinds of
mechanical assistance or

434
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:20,000
something.
Yeah.

435
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,280
And the other thing I was going
to say, she had 10 * a lethal

436
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:25,720
dose of morphine.
So we're not talking about just

437
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,240
10 * a dose of morphine.
It's 10 * a lethal dose of

438
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,720
morphine and flurazepam and
diazepam.

439
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,480
I do not believe that she was
conscious for three minutes.

440
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,240
I don't either.
Right now there's no I I feel

441
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:39,280
like.
Not a.

442
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,760
Clinician.
Not that there is no way she was

443
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,800
conscious for. 3 minutes no.
So testifying that she could

444
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,120
have tied herself up like that
in 3 minutes to me is a not is a

445
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,640
moot point.
Yeah, it's irrelevant because

446
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:54,040
she couldn't have been conscious
that long.

447
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,640
I mean, and maybe if she had one
of those things that 10 times

448
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,360
lethal limit exactly, which even
still is like, I don't believe

449
00:26:01,360 --> 00:26:05,080
it, but to have all of it on
board makes no sense at all.

450
00:26:05,360 --> 00:26:10,120
And then also when, if she, if
she had been setting it up, I

451
00:26:10,120 --> 00:26:12,520
would think she would also have
some sort of story behind it.

452
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,440
You know, why did this happen or
who's targeting me?

453
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,120
And it's interesting she told
her father that she knew who it

454
00:26:19,120 --> 00:26:21,280
was, but wouldn't say.
Right.

455
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:23,360
And so I don't know what that's
about.

456
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,560
No kidding.
I don't know right now.

457
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,360
This full, the shoe falls and
back to parental units.

458
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:32,680
They said she might have been
sexually abused as a child.

459
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,240
There was no indication of that
in any way, right?

460
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:37,120
I mean, there was never anything
prior.

461
00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:39,840
Just a psychologist or
psychiatrist saying that and

462
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,320
again, I don't even know it
doesn't appear that these

463
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:47,760
psychiatrists treated her.
They just like had her medical

464
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:53,680
records and you know, you can
infer infer, yes, a lot from

465
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,760
somebody's written medical
record that may not be accurate

466
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,280
because first of all, charting
is subjective like you're not

467
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:06,480
it's subjective.
And I mean again, being being

468
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,360
diagnosed with hysterical
personality disorder is just is

469
00:27:10,360 --> 00:27:12,640
a farce.
Right.

470
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,480
But besides, day-to-day is
whether I have hysterical

471
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:16,800
personality you just already
know.

472
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:20,320
Right, exactly.
Yeah, no.

473
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,600
And that's the thing and one of
the many things that are written

474
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,840
off just because someone's
female and no one can explain it

475
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,960
because no one tried.
We were talking some friends of

476
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,520
mine and I that if erectile
dysfunction was treated like

477
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,080
almost any female problem from
endometriosis to just strong

478
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:42,160
cramps to who knows what, it
would have been solved many,

479
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,720
many, many, many years ago,
many, many years ago.

480
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,920
And, and it's, it's just where
the interest is.

481
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,360
But we digress.
So I think that some of the

482
00:27:52,360 --> 00:27:56,120
things that happened, like I
say, feels like maybe she was

483
00:27:56,120 --> 00:28:01,480
kind of seeking help and support
by maybe doing a couple of these

484
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:02,800
things that are harder to
explain.

485
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,000
I mean, a thing of raw meat on
the porch.

486
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,400
OK, Well, I mean.
Sure, whatever.

487
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,120
Rotten meat.
Rotten raw meat.

488
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,760
Oh, I didn't hear the rotten
part, but even still, just raw

489
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,320
meat rots fast.
But that doesn't make any sense

490
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,400
to me.
That I don't know.

491
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,240
But there weren't, there were
some threats, I guess.

492
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:26,400
But then when the person called
Roy, that was her ex, right?

493
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,440
That's his name, Roy.
What's to be gained there?

494
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,400
I don't, I don't know, I mean.
Unless Roy was trying to throw

495
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,280
people off the trail, you know,
maybe it was Roy.

496
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,880
And so he said, well, somebody
called me too.

497
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,360
And back in the day, we couldn't
prove any of that.

498
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,440
I mean, even if they could
follow the records.

499
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,800
But also they said they bugged
Cindy's line but never found

500
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,320
anything.
So yeah, why were they still

501
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:55,240
holding the she's doing it
herself thing?

502
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,280
Right, well, not only that.
Like I can't get over the fact

503
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:04,200
that based on her liver mortise
she her body was moved

504
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,080
postmortem.
Like so she moved her own body

505
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,960
postmortem also.
Yeah, I could totally do that.

506
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:11,880
Once I'm dead, I could pick
myself up and move.

507
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,280
Why not?
Orange circle, pretty sure back

508
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,880
down.
Yeah, well, and that makes sense

509
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,080
too.
I, you know, yeah, that

510
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:26,000
definitely is impossible.
And even if she were to have

511
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,840
done the things they said in the
three minutes and she had some

512
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,920
sort of medical mechanical
support and then killed herself

513
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:34,840
and then moved herself because
they didn't want evidence.

514
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:36,600
OK, sorry.
You lost me at the I moved

515
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:41,040
myself once I was dead moment.
Exactly.

516
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,760
Even I know that's not likely.
How did they get past that?

517
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:46,200
Did it ever say that they were
like?

518
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,400
No, I mean, I think they just, I
think that was, that's part of

519
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:56,040
the, I think that's part of the
issue is that there was a lot of

520
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:01,240
ignoring stuff, just just stuff
off because it didn't fit their

521
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,720
narrative of she's doing this to
herself, she's making this up.

522
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:10,200
Right, Yeah, which is really
good investigative technique.

523
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,400
Well and they tried really hard
to make it fit the box.

524
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:18,000
Now, at the time, were there any
associated other people, other

525
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,600
victims at all?
Not that it's mentioned, no.

526
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,720
And it does sound certainly
targeted, especially the first

527
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:27,040
few times.
It could have just been more

528
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:28,480
random.
But when they used her name,

529
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,160
Cindy that.
Was harder and I don't know, it

530
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,480
doesn't say when she started
going by Cindy, it may have been

531
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:39,080
in her childhood because her
name is Cynthia and there's no

532
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,840
mention of that.
So it she didn't necessarily

533
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:47,680
change it as part of this name
changing stuff, but it's a

534
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,120
possibility I suppose, right?
I don't, I don't know.

535
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:57,760
Well, and also though in the
olden days everybody had their

536
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,160
name in the phone book, so it's
not, it's not even a little bit

537
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,920
hard to find out whose name.
And it wasn't uncommon at all to

538
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:10,280
have Harold and wife Cindy or
whatever, or Cynthia parentheses

539
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,680
Cindy.
I mean, there was so much

540
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,320
information in the phone book
that that it was pretty wild

541
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,200
looking back now, knowing what
people could find out in about

542
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:23,160
34 seconds, which we can do
electronically now, but just

543
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,040
even open the phone book.
It was super easy.

544
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,920
But still it it had to there was
some level of target.

545
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,640
Even if they did randomly select
her initially, she was still

546
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,560
being targeted.
If that were the case, if she

547
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:38,400
were being targeted by someone
else.

548
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:42,240
Which back to the whole moving
one dead thing I I feel strongly

549
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:46,640
about.
I also somehow did not mention

550
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:52,080
that in 1984, one of the
incidences, her dog was found

551
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:58,160
with surprise and nylon around
his neck, heavily suffocated,

552
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,320
near death.
And so, I mean, yeah, I feel

553
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,280
like personally that you have to
be a psychopath to injured

554
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,480
animals and even more so to
injure your own animals.

555
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:13,200
And to me, there's nothing that
indicates psychopathy at all.

556
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,040
And nobody else has accused her
of it, right?

557
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,520
They've accused her of all sorts
of of other psychiatrics.

558
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:23,680
Female disorders Female.
Disorders, but not psychopathy.

559
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,040
Well, and if you think about it,
though, the animal also

560
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:32,920
indicates to me the escalation
of the perpetrator because like

561
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:37,320
I say, they start out really
lightly, harder, more intense

562
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,160
things, more obvious things, the
fact that one time the pillow

563
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:42,280
was cut inside the house.
Yeah.

564
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:47,480
That's freaky.
And maybe, maybe again, that was

565
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,040
one thing that if she were to
want to draw attention that

566
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:54,320
maybe she did that.
But even still, all of it is

567
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:58,040
just just really crazy.
Something else that I find odd

568
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:04,440
is that when she was found in
October of 98, 9888, when she

569
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,400
was found in her garage, she was
hog tied nude from the waist

570
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:11,680
down, stocking around her neck.
The same knot expert that said

571
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:15,680
she could have hog tied herself
when she died testified that

572
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,080
such knots were unlikely to have
been self tied in that incident,

573
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,240
and I'm dying to know what's
different about them.

574
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:28,400
Right, so why was it unlikely
she tied the knots when she was

575
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,400
hog tied with the freaking
stocking around her neck?

576
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,040
Sounds exactly the same to me as
the one that caused her death.

577
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,880
And then suddenly it it is by
the same by the same expert,

578
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,640
suddenly he's saying that she
definitely could have done it in

579
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:43,440
3 minutes.
Yeah.

580
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:47,080
The only thing I could see it
potentially is positioning.

581
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,120
I mean, maybe if it were one
position on her neck, it would

582
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,640
be impossible.
Another position, it could

583
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,560
happen because if I think about
things like if it was behind my

584
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,760
neck, I might be able to get
more leverage than to the side.

585
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:01,640
I don't know.
I mean, I'm certainly not going

586
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,080
to test it.
Yeah, I just.

587
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:07,120
Oralize, see if I can do it in 3
minutes.

588
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:13,080
I mean, I would love to see you
try to hog tie yourself, period.

589
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,800
I'd love to see you try to hog
tie yourself in three hours.

590
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,719
I mean it.
We're not talking about Houdini

591
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:26,159
here, right?
Like, I mean, unless she was

592
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,320
seriously like practicing day in
and day out.

593
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,719
I just it, it just, it defies
logic for me.

594
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:37,239
Yeah, well, and we know she was
working and now she's doing all

595
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,239
the other things.
So yeah, you're right.

596
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,800
I mean it would have to be one
of those magician sort of tricks

597
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:47,480
which failed, which again moving
after she was dead and and sure

598
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,320
ever Mortis could have been
misread.

599
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:54,719
But it still is pretty strong
and it only has a certain window

600
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,320
of time I think.
What is it 3 or 4 hours?

601
00:34:57,720 --> 00:35:01,240
And then things will change and
and what has happened will

602
00:35:01,240 --> 00:35:04,680
settle forever sort of thing.
So yeah, I don't know.

603
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:06,680
And they hadn't mentioned
anything about where they

604
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,240
thought she was moved from or
anything like that, I presume.

605
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:14,000
Because also I would think that
if it was in some sort of public

606
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,240
ish place, everything would have
had been set up first.

607
00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:21,000
They couldn't just, I mean, they
don't have unlimited time.

608
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:23,240
Right.
And then you have to think about

609
00:35:23,240 --> 00:35:26,160
the fact that there's likely
more than one person involved.

610
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:30,000
Well, she said that two men,
when she was found the first

611
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,840
time in the garage where she a
knife had been inserted into her

612
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,080
vagina, etcetera, she said that
two men had attacked her and

613
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,280
dragged her to the garage.
So she herself, you know, had

614
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:44,760
said that there were two men.
Her neighbor that saw the the

615
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:48,920
suspicious man in her yard did
also say that he did not

616
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,520
resemble Roy at all.
That suggests that they were

617
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,040
strangers, or at least strangers
to the neighborhood.

618
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:56,320
Right.
Yeah.

619
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:57,840
Not somebody who's been around
every day.

620
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,960
Well, just that these men were
unknown, I presume.

621
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,960
Yeah, yeah, well, and she, the
people who actually knew her

622
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:12,760
psychiatrist aside, said that
she was normal, that she was a

623
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:17,440
normal person receiving horrible
threats and, you know, horrible

624
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:22,000
phone calls and horrible, it
just just horrible gifts.

625
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,760
We'll say that.
Oh yeah.

626
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,400
So you actually, you inferred
correctly.

627
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,720
The friends were coming to play
bridge and stay the night.

628
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,680
So they probably got to the
house like and it was locked,

629
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:38,160
like I said.
And then they went, I think that

630
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,640
they looks like they went
looking for her that night and

631
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:43,840
found her car.
I wonder if she had told them

632
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,840
she would be going to the
Safeway, because it seems like

633
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,600
that's an awfully fast time to
find her.

634
00:36:50,720 --> 00:36:53,160
Well, yeah, I mean, have you
ever done a party where I have,

635
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,280
I'm like, oh shoot, I've got to
run to Costco to grab blah,

636
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,920
blah, blah for the last minute
and saying it to either family

637
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,800
or friends that maybe that would
not be uncommon at all.

638
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:06,000
I forgot the Pickles, you know,
so that makes sense.

639
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:07,520
And also, people know each
other.

640
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,080
I mean, they would know that
Safeway maybe was around the

641
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:12,680
corner, so that's where she
would most likely have gone and

642
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:17,640
blah blah blah.
So another thing that I just

643
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:23,040
found is that so her body was,
she disappeared on May 25th, her

644
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:28,080
body was found on June 8th.
Forensic and entomology

645
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,440
suggested she died as early as
June 2nd.

646
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,960
Now, it doesn't say that the
forensic entomology doesn't say

647
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,040
that she was, that she died June
2nd, was moved on June 8th or

648
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:43,720
anything like that.
But again, it does, it does kind

649
00:37:43,720 --> 00:37:46,640
of support the idea that her
body was moved postmortem

650
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,240
because that's six days later.
And where was she during the six

651
00:37:50,240 --> 00:37:51,280
days?
Right.

652
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,480
And what was happening?
Granted, it was an abandoned

653
00:37:54,480 --> 00:38:00,200
house, but if a municipal worker
was there, who knows how often

654
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,280
other municipal workers or
neighbors or whoever were

655
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,760
passing the house?
And so that, to me, supports the

656
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:11,080
idea that she wasn't there until
June 8th, right?

657
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,600
And they never mentioned
anything, any other kind of

658
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,120
injuries, problems, assaults or
anything.

659
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,760
Nope.
Also, back in the day, a lot

660
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,000
less was checked, but they still
would have checked that sort of

661
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:25,600
thing.
Yeah.

662
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:28,120
Yeah.
This doesn't make any sense.

663
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:32,080
And then some people might say,
well, and so she just took off

664
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:34,560
for a while to make it look
dramatic and then sort of

665
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,040
attempted to kill herself.
Well, OK still.

666
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,480
But back to how did she get from
point A to point B after she was

667
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:41,640
dead?
Yeah.

668
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:43,240
Exactly.
Or even close to death.

669
00:38:43,240 --> 00:38:47,600
If she was so, so close to
death, let's give her, let's

670
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:48,680
give it the benefit of the
doubt.

671
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:53,480
So maybe she was just so sedated
and everything else that she was

672
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:57,640
having trouble moving, right?
How far could she have taken

673
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:01,520
herself at that point?
And, and, and she wasn't found

674
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,800
crawling or they didn't note
that she had everything scraped

675
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:06,840
off the front of her.
I mean, that just doesn't even

676
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:10,320
make any sense because again,
like you say, as professionals,

677
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:12,840
we've given medications, we've
received medications, not

678
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:14,800
professional capacity, only as a
patient.

679
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:20,760
And, and those things, even if a
person is not unconscious,

680
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,440
they're certainly loopy.
And do you think you could have

681
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,920
your full strength after the 1st
30 seconds of any narcotic or

682
00:39:27,240 --> 00:39:31,880
Denzo or any of that?
IB No, because even even if I

683
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:33,920
was still confident.
I call them tricyclics.

684
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:35,200
You're right, they're
benzodiazepines.

685
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:40,120
Sorry.
But even if even if I started to

686
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:44,720
go loopy, there's no way I could
have all of my strength.

687
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,840
Yeah, well, and you sort of
touched on this before, but it

688
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:49,400
just occurred to me in a
different way.

689
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:53,480
You talked about hesitation
Marks, and research shows that

690
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:58,120
most people who try to strangle
themselves without like standing

691
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,240
on a chair and kicking you out
from under them or whatever,

692
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:04,720
they can't go through with it.
No, and they pass out. 1st and

693
00:40:04,720 --> 00:40:06,560
they pass out first.
And then they release their

694
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:08,640
strength because she couldn't
have I.

695
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:10,040
That just doesn't make any
sense.

696
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:12,200
She would have occluded her
blood flow to the point that she

697
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,000
would pass out.
That self preservation your

698
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,840
body, she'd pass out and then
her hands would release.

699
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,600
And since they didn't mention
that there was some big crank

700
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:22,960
tool sitting around.
Well, they didn't even mention

701
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,600
that the stocking was attached
to anything, right?

702
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:30,520
Exactly.
Tight and then dog tight

703
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,320
herself, I mean.
Right, exactly, come on And even

704
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,680
that 3 minutes, could she have
done all of it in 3 minutes?

705
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,240
Maybe if she had everything
loose and ready to go?

706
00:40:39,240 --> 00:40:43,120
Okay, but still the force that
it takes.

707
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,880
You know, when I read the
magazines and look at stuff and

708
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,560
magazines, for heaven's sakes, I
haven't met her a magazine in

709
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:51,520
years.
Books, you know, the bigger

710
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:53,440
things.
When I look at all that stuff

711
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,440
and they talk about how much
force it takes to strangle this

712
00:40:56,440 --> 00:41:01,080
person, it's a lot.
And even if there's a ligature,

713
00:41:01,240 --> 00:41:04,760
it still takes a lot.
And it's not like it just

714
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:08,520
happens in, in seconds.
It it takes, I think the average

715
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:11,440
strangulation takes 4 minutes.
I read and so.

716
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:15,200
OK, so she's conscious for three
minutes if it takes 4 minutes to

717
00:41:15,240 --> 00:41:16,720
strangle to death.
Right.

718
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,680
I just recently was watching
something, I don't remember what

719
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:25,720
it was, but it was a guy who had
strangled somebody.

720
00:41:25,720 --> 00:41:30,480
And he had told a friend, for
whatever reason, that it took

721
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:34,320
way longer than he expected and
that it was way harder than he

722
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:35,800
expected.
Absolutely.

723
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:40,000
And so this is a guy that was,
you know, a perfectly healthy,

724
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:42,280
strong man.
And even he was like, what?

725
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,360
I had no idea what I was getting
myself into.

726
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:48,320
Exactly.
And yeah, I mean, obviously

727
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:51,920
we're kind of circular talking
here and repeating ourselves,

728
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:54,720
but it just, it doesn't make any
sense to me that she could have

729
00:41:54,720 --> 00:41:56,240
successfully done this to
herself.

730
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,800
And it sounds like they had a
narrative that they just wanted

731
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:03,160
to fit and they hoped maybe they
were talking enough this people

732
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:07,160
just wouldn't keep looking.
Yeah, I think that's The thing

733
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:10,200
is they stymied actual
investigation.

734
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,520
And I think, yeah, like you
said, they decided early on that

735
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:18,200
she was hysterical and they were
going to just stick with that

736
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:20,440
and not take anything else
seriously.

737
00:42:21,240 --> 00:42:23,960
I mean, that's honestly.
If they did though, take it

738
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,240
seriously, that means they had
ignored her all this time and

739
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:31,520
they put her in a position that
she was the subject of a murder.

740
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:35,400
Yeah, Yeah, exactly.
Also, it would take.

741
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:38,640
I just don't know.
I just don't know how she would

742
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:43,640
have the time to plan and
execute all of these things.

743
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:48,600
Like it was just ad nauseam, you
know.

744
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:51,720
And again, because she had a
job, she had friends that she

745
00:42:51,720 --> 00:42:55,920
played bridge with.
I mean, when did she sleep like

746
00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:00,040
it just.
One, and if we, if we think

747
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,720
about it too, most people who
are going to do something like

748
00:43:02,720 --> 00:43:07,120
this that maybe is a psychopath
of some sort, if it's not

749
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:08,800
working, they'll do something
different.

750
00:43:09,720 --> 00:43:13,880
And this clearly wasn't working.
It was over 8 lasted years and

751
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:17,720
the incidents, I mean, come on,
At a point she'd go like, that's

752
00:43:17,720 --> 00:43:19,360
not working, I should probably
do something else.

753
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:22,800
I mean, if that were the case,
which I don't believe she did,

754
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:26,440
but if it were, then why would
she keep doing something that's

755
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:28,760
not working 'cause she seemed
intelligent, she seemed

756
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:32,720
interactive and all of the
things she, she may even, I

757
00:43:32,720 --> 00:43:37,080
mean, psychopaths tend to be
very smart and, and they also

758
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:40,520
can read the room.
And in this case it was getting

759
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:42,640
her nothing.
But the one thing that is

760
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:46,120
difficult to believe though, is
that she moved.

761
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:49,080
She changed the color of her
car, she changed her name, but

762
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:52,840
she was still being targeted,
which the which?

763
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:56,400
OK, well, that I can see of them
saying, well then why is it

764
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:58,800
still following her?
But I don't think she changed

765
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:02,040
her entire life.
And people are easy to find and

766
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:05,520
follow and even.
We should change your job.

767
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:07,360
Right.
And also.

768
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:10,320
Exactly.
And also people who are even in

769
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:13,680
say, like a witness protection
program, when they get found,

770
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:16,240
it's because the we are
creatures of habit.

771
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:20,000
We do the same thing all the
time, even if we try not to.

772
00:44:20,240 --> 00:44:22,200
How long, how many times have
you been trying to drive

773
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:24,480
somewhere and you go somewhere
else when you realize that was

774
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:26,960
the place you always go?
And like, why have I suddenly

775
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,440
appeared here at wherever and I
didn't mean to come here?

776
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:32,480
It's just habit.
That's what we do.

777
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:34,360
And we go unconscious with what
we're doing.

778
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:36,040
So we just do what we're used
to.

779
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:41,520
And so even if she had moved
further away and like you say

780
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:46,160
she had the same job, but even
if she were to have gone had to

781
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,400
go a different direction to get
home, it'd be really easy to

782
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:52,760
just forget and take the other
way that she was used to.

783
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:54,600
I mean, it's just the creature
of habit thing.

784
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:56,880
It would be really easy to find
her again.

785
00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:00,680
And it wouldn't be surprising to
me if it were someone within the

786
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:05,000
hospital system that she works
with, and especially for the

787
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,240
medications because they had to
get them somewhere.

788
00:45:07,240 --> 00:45:10,160
Maybe somebody faked a
prescription and got all these

789
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:15,080
meds to to put her down.
But that seems less likely to me

790
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:18,480
than someone, as I mentioned
back in the day, just pocketing

791
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,320
a few every once in a while.
Couple of aisles here, a couple

792
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,360
of aisles there.
Next thing they know, they have

793
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:25,080
everything they need.
Right.

794
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:28,800
Well then that goes back to, for
me, to the fact that Roy's a

795
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,640
psychiatrist.
Well, benzodiazepines are

796
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:35,480
psychiatric medications, right?
Like but then again, she also.

797
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:38,440
But they're not exclusively.
Yeah, she also worked with

798
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:42,040
troubled children or whatever,
but maybe those were medications

799
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:44,160
they used in that, you know,
unit.

800
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:50,280
And my biggest question overall
is to what end would she do all

801
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:52,600
of this, especially where she
died at the end.

802
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:59,360
Like I feel like she had nothing
to gain from this and if it was

803
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:04,160
just attention I feel like like
you said she would have changed

804
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:06,360
it up because she was not
getting the attention she

805
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:08,760
wanted.
I just feel like you would, not,

806
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:15,640
to use a stupid metaphor, beat a
dead horse if it's not working

807
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:19,600
when when your goal is
attention.

808
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:24,560
Well, and she also, right.
And as you you had mentioned

809
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:30,160
during the the description, she
had friends, she had a life, she

810
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:33,160
could have gotten attention in a
whole bunch of different ways

811
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:36,600
that would have been a lot less
lethal when and since that drama

812
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:40,400
didn't work like you said.
I mean, she could have she could

813
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,320
have started a new club.
She could have, you know, been

814
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:47,360
the best basket Weaver ever, you
know, whatever to do all these

815
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:48,880
other things.
It's just wackadoodle.

816
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:51,960
And yeah, it doesn't track for
me.

817
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:55,720
Me either the one devil's
advocate thing I will say just

818
00:46:55,720 --> 00:46:57,240
because I thought of it and who
knows.

819
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:03,280
It is odd that all of the notes
came as cut outs as though

820
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:06,000
somebody is just is disguising
their handwriting.

821
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:09,720
Now I would be curious to see
her handwriting compared to the

822
00:47:09,720 --> 00:47:13,080
things that were spray painted
and you know, written in due on

823
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:17,600
her windshield because I feel
like your handwriting, it might

824
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:19,640
be a little different if you're
using spray paint, right, but

825
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,840
it's still going to look like
your handwriting in my opinion.

826
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:26,200
Yeah, but also, Crystal, you
need to remember the time frame

827
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:31,560
in the 80s, early 90s, computers
weren't in everybody's home.

828
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:34,360
Some people had typewriters, but
not even everyone had

829
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:35,480
typewriters.
The.

830
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:38,440
Typewriters could be traced.
Yes, exactly.

831
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:40,720
But I mean I'm just thinking
it's not.

832
00:47:40,720 --> 00:47:44,920
To me, the cut out letters is
not a problem because there were

833
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:49,240
so few ways that a person could
do something like that.

834
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:52,800
You know, like I said, they we
couldn't print it up on the

835
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:55,040
printer.
We couldn't do all of that

836
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:57,840
stuff.
And I remember a lot of times

837
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:01,320
hearing, oh, and it was cut out
from a magazine or something and

838
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:03,920
there are the letters.
So that to me is not that

839
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:06,960
surprising.
But I but it is a way to

840
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:09,880
disguise writing.
And yes, it could have been

841
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,480
hers, but it's still again
seems.

842
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:14,280
Pretty clear.
I don't think it was her.

843
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:16,200
I do not think she did this to
herself.

844
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:21,160
Yeah, I think she was.
Unfairly treated by law

845
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:26,280
enforcement and was being
stalked by some crazy person.

846
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:29,280
And maybe it was Roy and
somebody else or Roy and two

847
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:30,880
other people.
And, you know, maybe Roy was

848
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:34,240
involved.
And just because that one man in

849
00:48:34,240 --> 00:48:37,960
the yard didn't resemble Roy
doesn't mean that he, you know,

850
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:41,000
maybe it was a threesome.
And so two people, two men

851
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,400
attacked her in the garage.
One of those men is also in the

852
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:45,880
backyard.
And then they call Roy and leave

853
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:47,400
the voicemails, right?
Who knows?

854
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:50,440
Who knows?
But for me, I don't think that

855
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,120
she did it to herself.
I don't think either and and

856
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:57,400
just there's no obvious gain,
but even not even really for Roy

857
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:01,960
either, unless some people just
get so upset that that she's

858
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:06,320
moving along and she's having a
life and wait, I got rid of her

859
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:08,960
divorced or whatever happened,
but well.

860
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:09,680
It is.
Odd.

861
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:11,680
There are plenty of psychopaths.
Out there, yeah.

862
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:14,320
It is odd that it all started
four months after their

863
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:19,440
separation.
Like, I mean, I guess you could,

864
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:25,160
I guess you could theorize that
maybe somebody knew she was no

865
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:28,240
longer quote, UN quote,
protected by a man.

866
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:33,200
And so I just got this.
See, This is why this is such a

867
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:38,120
good topic for this podcast
because I it's just it's it's

868
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:44,400
inexplicable to me other than
she was stopped, harassed and

869
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:48,080
terrorized and then killed back
to me is the story.

870
00:49:48,720 --> 00:49:53,680
Right.
And, you know, I, I'd say even

871
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:59,440
if all of the things that we
can't buy are true, that she did

872
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,680
it herself, the system certainly
failed her if that were the

873
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:07,400
case, because if she in fact was
in a position where she was

874
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:11,400
doing all of this crying out for
help basically, and didn't get

875
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:15,600
any any help that way, then
that's also a failure in the

876
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:18,920
system.
And but when you said that, all

877
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:21,320
of her friends and family said
she was not like that.

878
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:24,480
And if anybody, her parents
should know, the people she

879
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:27,400
spends the closest amount of
time with would know.

880
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:30,560
Yeah.
I mean, a person does not

881
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:34,800
typically suddenly develop some
of these syndromes or disorders.

882
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:39,800
I mean, they can situationally,
but for eight years, that just

883
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:45,280
doesn't track either for me.
But but the fact that that it

884
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:49,080
didn't seem like anyone did
anything then take a superficial

885
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:52,400
view on any of what was
happening, right, Whether it was

886
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:56,240
the police or a doctor, you
know, somebody to say, well,

887
00:50:56,240 --> 00:51:00,360
this seems odd, right, right.
And we're not blaming anyone

888
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:04,520
particularly, but it's just it
seems like at minimum this is a

889
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:06,280
system failure.
I'm.

890
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:09,440
Blaming the psychiatrist that
diagnosed her with a hysterical

891
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:12,040
personality disorder.
But he's the only one I'm

892
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:13,400
blaming that's.
Right.

893
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:17,200
But otherwise there's and, and
the fact that it wasn't like

894
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:18,800
they're one or two people
involved.

895
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:21,680
There were probably by the time
things were finished, there were

896
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:23,640
probably hundreds of people that
had.

897
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:26,720
Touched this kid somehow at the
inquest. 8 witnesses.

898
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:29,400
I mean.
What?

899
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:33,800
That's just wild.
Anyway, it is.

900
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:37,880
It's wild brings up a whole
another podcast possibility.

901
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:40,640
But anyway, well, that was
awesome.

902
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:42,520
Thank you.
That was that was interesting.

903
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:45,480
And I, I feel like I've heard
parts of the story, but I really

904
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:46,880
don't think I had heard all of
it.

905
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:50,880
Yeah, I just recently heard it.
I, it's been within the last

906
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:53,480
three years because the first
time I heard it, Oh, actually as

907
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:58,120
a matter of fact, wait, the
first time I heard it was after

908
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:00,360
my hip surgery.
So it's been less than two years

909
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:03,320
since I first heard it and I've
been fascinated with it ever

910
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:08,320
since just because it just seems
so convenient to be like, oh,

911
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:11,040
she did it to herself.
She was just crazy person.

912
00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:13,480
Right.
Like it's wild.

913
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:16,960
Yep.
Well, things get written off for

914
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:19,160
Stranger things than that.
That's for sure.

915
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:20,960
Yeah.
All right, Cool.

916
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:22,320
Thank you.
You're welcome.

917
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:24,880
All right, if you've made it
this far, clearly you like a

918
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:26,520
little mayhem with your
medicine.

919
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:29,360
Or you just enjoy hearing us
ramble about weird medical

920
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:31,560
mysteries.
Either way, we'd love you for

921
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:33,760
it.
So hit that follow or subscribe

922
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:35,160
button wherever you're
listening.

923
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:37,320
And toss us a rating or review
while you're at it.

924
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:40,160
Helps other curious weirdos find
the show.

925
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:42,920
And we know there are a lot of
you out there.

926
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:45,800
Oh so many.
Come join the chaos.

927
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:49,000
Thanks for listening to
Medicine, Mystery, mayhem, and

928
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:51,600
sometimes Murder.
Do you have an idea for an

929
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:54,520
episode of this podcast?
Just want to say hi?

930
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:57,880
You can get in touch with us at
our M4 pod.

931
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:04,880
That's OURM
thenumberfourpod@gmail.com.

932
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:09,400
We read every e-mail, and
sometimes we even respond just

933
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:12,200
like real professionals.
Because we are.

934
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:17,080
Old friends with new twists and
lots of body bags.