Remember When

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Welcome to M4 Medicine, mystery,
mayhem, and sometimes murder.

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I'm Andrea Marziano and RN with
35 years of experience across

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various fields.
From direct patient care in

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hospitals to home health,
geriatrics, and injury medicine,

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I face life, death, and
everything in between.

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And I'm Crystal Miller and RN
with 13 1/2 years of experience.

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My work spans home health,
Hospice, emergency care,

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geriatrics, and occupational
health.

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From the chaos of trauma based
quiet moments with patients,

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I've seen stories that defy
explanation.

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We've been friends for over 25
years and as nurses we've shared

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countless stories that have left
us and our families speechless.

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Now we're bringing those stories
and many more to you in

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medicine, mystery, mayhem, and
sometimes murder.

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Each week, we'll uncover cases
that challenge the boundaries of

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medicine, sharing the human
stories behind the science.

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From puzzling medical mysteries
to shocking real life crimes,

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we'll bring you stories that'll
leave you questioning everything

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you thought you knew.
While we're both experienced

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nurses, we want to make it clear
we're not here to give medical

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advice.
This podcast is about

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storytelling, education and
exploration, not diagnosing or

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treating medical conditions.
This is medicine, mystery,

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mayhem and sometimes murder.
Let's dive in.

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Hey Crystal, how are you?
I'm doing very well.

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How are you?
I'm well, thank you.

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Anything exciting going on for
you?

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Just that it's freezing.
Got this winter storm Fern

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paralyzing the United States and
here where I am in Oklahoma

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we've had a couple days of 8°
weather with like a -11 wind

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chill.
It's awful.

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Yeah, that's definitely not
totally typical for your area.

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Although I remember one of the
worst storms I ever was a part

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of was when I was a kid in
Oklahoma.

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I don't remember where but we
were suddenly bombarded by an

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ice storm our I remember my dad
driving our big ol Ford Ltd and

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we suddenly started spinning and
he rammed into the back of

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somebody else's car who was also
spinning.

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I remember that the engine fell
out but now being older I don't

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think that actually happened.
I just know that we were down.

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My brother and sister and I had
all hit our heads on the back of

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the seat because we weren't, I
don't know.

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I'm sure we were seat belted
because that was dad's rule, but

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apparently not enough because I
just remember having a headache.

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As I remember the tow truck
driver took us home to his house

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and his wife fed us because it
was my mom.

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Yeah, it was mom and dad and the
the three kids.

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But it was a summer storm, so we
didn't have any winter clothes

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or anything.
And we were stuck.

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And so they took us up to the
the shop and that's how I

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remembered.
I could be totally wrong, but I

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just remember it being really
scary, really scary.

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And please refer back to our
False Memory podcast.

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Episode.
Yep.

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So anyway, what do you have for
us today?

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Well, today I'm going to talk
about memories.

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Yeah, Yeah, actually, I am going
to talk about memories.

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I'm going to talk about kids who
know things they shouldn't.

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Wow.
So what happens when a young

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person knows things they
shouldn't?

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Not from school, not from family
lore, but something deeper,

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older.
Almost impossible.

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As nurses, we spend our lives
translating human experience

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into things that make sense
clinically.

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Developmental stages, Memory
formation, Trauma responses.

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Today, we explore real stories
and questionable encounters

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where kids, teens, and prodigies
seem to know more than they had

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any right to know.
We'll balance documented history

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with the kind of eerie questions
that make you lean in and ask.

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Know that?
Cool.

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So history remembers those rare
young minds who weren't just

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smart, they were extraordinary.
Scholars call them prodigies,

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children under the age of 10
performing at the level of

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expert adults.
But what does that look like in

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reality?
Story number one.

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In the early 20th century,
William James Seedies became a

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sensation.
I don't know if I'm pronouncing

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that right, but it's SIDIS.
He could read the New York Times

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before he was 2, Mastered 8
languages by the age of 8, and

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was admitted to Harvard at age
11.

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Even I know 11.
Think of the 11 year olds you

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know.
I can't even imagine.

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I don't know if that would have
been a plus.

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He even lectured on 4
dimensional bodies, a concept

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most adults still struggle with,
to the Harvard Mathematical

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Club.
Think about that.

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By the time many kids today are
mastering video game controls,

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CDs was unpacking advanced
geometry knowledge that would

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astonish adult academics.
I never got to that, let alone

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at 11.
I got I'm like me math hard no

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thank you.
That's right, I won't need

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geometry.
What are you talking about,

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exactly?
But beyond raw intelligence, C

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DS case raises a question.
How much historical context did

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he absorb while mastering
languages and abstract math?

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How much did his youthful
intellect reinterpret the known

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past in ways adults couldn't
imagine?

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That's our first glimpse into a
mind that seemed to touch the

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distant edges of understanding
much earlier than expected.

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Consider Christian Heinrich
Heineken, called the infant

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scholar of Lubeck.
By age 1, he could read the

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Pentatock, the first five books
of the Hebrew Bible.

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I just want to remind you that I
said by age 1.

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I know I'm like, wait, what we?
Could read the pen to talk, and

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by age 2 he could recite both
the Old and New Testaments in

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Latin.
At three he stood before the

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King of Denmark and recited the
history of Denmark.

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As adults we I know as adults we
learn history through textbooks,

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lectures, and repetition.
The Christian did it before age

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4, soaking up centuries of
recorded events and religious

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traditions unconsciously and
reciting them as if he'd lived

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them.
What does that say about how the

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human brain can absorb pattern,
narrative, memory and context?

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What does that say about how the
human brain can absorb pattern,

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narrative, memory, and context?
Even when we assume a young

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child's mind should be too
immature for such feats, the

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prodigies I just told you about
learned through intense study,

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parental support, or
environment.

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But here's another category.
In modern times, a child named

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Arden Hayes gained attention
from memorizing detailed

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historical and scientific facts
years before school age.

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Videos and interviews showed
Hayes reciting presidential

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space history and scientific
list with almost robotic

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precision.
What fascinates us is isn't just

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the recall, it's how deep the
content goes and how naturally

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it flows from his mind, almost
as if the past were somehow

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already present to him.
The prodigies we discussed learn

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through intense study, parental
support or environment.

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But there's another category,
kids who seem to know things

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they couldn't have learned by
normal means.

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That's where history starts to
feel weird.

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You might be wondering, is any
of this explainable?

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Modern psychological research
suggests gifted children's and

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prodigies have unusual abilities
in memory, pattern recognition,

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and information processing.
Early work by researchers like

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Lita Hollingworth found that
children with exceptionally high

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Iqs can engage with complex
historical and intellectual

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patterns far earlier than
expected.

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But here's the subtle twist.
Actually, I want to go back.

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I was a gifted child.
Air quotes as in elementary,

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well, in school.
And it's interesting that they

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say that they have unusual
abilities and memory, pattern

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recognition and information
processing.

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And of course I only know my own
mind, but I don't feel like I'm

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good at any of those things.
Yeah, it's kind of interesting.

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I wonder how that used to be
judged because my twin sister

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and I were reading by the age of
four, which seemed quite young

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at that time.
And we went to school early.

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We went to school at 4:00.
And I think part of the, the

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driving factor was that mom had
a new baby and, and we were

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closer to 5 because we turned 5
in October of that year.

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So it would have been August,
September, so 3-4 months before

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our birthday.
But that's younger than most

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people because we were fluent to
reading.

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We weren't just reading a few
words.

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We were reading little books,
not, you know, Gone with the

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Wind.
Not the pen to talk.

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Not bad.
In any language.

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But I wonder, and I've always
been a very strong reader.

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I read a lot but I am
definitely, as you said, not

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strong in other areas,
especially math.

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You know, my kids and I were
talking about how they learn to

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read and I'm curious how you
learn to read.

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So I don't know anything about
like sounding out a word or

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phonetics or anything.
I learned to recognize a word

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like so MIGHT is my I just know
that, right?

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How did you learn to read?
No idea.

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Really.
Yeah, I don't.

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I mean I was young enough.
I don't have any memories of my

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life before I was 12 and
apparently part of that is ADHD.

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But what's interesting is I
could read the same as my sister

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from what mom says.
However, I could not memorize

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thing.
I was 10 in fifth grade, my mom

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spent a year with me teaching me
basic memory skills.

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I would get one instruction and
that's all I could do.

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But if she said go to the door,
turn the knob and open it, I

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could go to the door and get
there.

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Go now what?
I do that everyday.

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I was just let me let you finish
your story.

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Don't say it sorry.
Well I was just going to say my

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sister remembers me going
through all of this and how

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difficult it was.
I remember feeling the

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frustration but I don't remember
the actual events.

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But I remember just feeling
really angry that year and I

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think that's why is because I
was super frustrated.

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I also remember that my 5th
grade teacher, Missus Bluestone,

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told me I was stupid in front of
the whole class because I wasn't

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getting the multiplication
tables.

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That is, as we can imagine, had
an effect on me through my short

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career.
Anyway, that's that's my story.

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Yeah, I was just telling.
I was just demonstrating for

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Holly yesterday how there were
three things that I needed to

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remember.
And it was, I believe I was

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transferring data from three
sources to 1.

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I can't remember exactly, but I
was like, OK, I need to do this,

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this and this.
And then I got to this and I was

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like, shit.
What's the next?

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This right exactly.
So I have to keep going back and

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looking at that's like part of
my daily life.

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So it's crazy.
There's a subtle twist between

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knowing a fact and knowing its
meanings.

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Those are very different things.
Some prodigies memorize facts,

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dates, languages, patterns
without the emotional or

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cultural context adults build
over a year.

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So when a young person speaks
with certainty about something

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beyond their reasonable
understanding, we must ask, is

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this memorized fact inherited
cultural echo, or something

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deeper?
But I don't don't know the

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answer.
But let's move on to a category

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of stories that sit right at the
edge of what medicine can

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comfortably explain.
Children who seem to remember

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lives that ended before they
were born.

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Before we go any further, I want
to be very clear about what this

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episode is not.
This is not about proving or

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disproving reincarnation.
It's not about spirituality,

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belief systems, or religion.
And it's definitely not about

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exploiting kids for shock value
We're talking about.

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What we are talking about are
documented cases investigated by

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physicians and psychologists,
where young children make

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verifiable historical statements
about deceased individuals that

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they could not have reasonably
known about through normal

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means.
And we're also going to talk

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about the limits of that
research, because if you're

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going to touch this topic
responsibly, you have to hold

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both.
Before we go, before we dive

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into the cases, I want to ground
us in something important.

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Children are weird.
They blend imagination and

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reality constantly.
They misremember, they mimic.

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They absorb details from adults
without realizing it.

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So when a child says something
odd, the default explanation is

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usually the correct one.
But the cases we're exploring

232
00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:41,560
today don't behave like
imagination.

233
00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,680
They're persistent.
They're emotionally charged.

234
00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:46,720
They are resistant to
correction.

235
00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,960
They're unusually specific and
are often accompanied by fear,

236
00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:53,560
nightmares or phobias.
And here's the part that

237
00:11:53,560 --> 00:11:55,720
matters.
Clinically, these children are

238
00:11:55,720 --> 00:12:00,680
distressed, Not excited, not
playful, not seeking attention.

239
00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:04,040
Distress without an obvious
cause is something medicine

240
00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:06,040
takes seriously.
So let's start with the

241
00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,040
research.
In the 1960s, a psychiatrist

242
00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:12,400
named Ian Stevenson begin
collecting reports of children

243
00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:14,360
who claimed memories of previous
lives.

244
00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:16,600
He wasn't a Mystic.
I was going to say he wasn't a

245
00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:18,240
Mystic.
He wasn't a medical doctor.

246
00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:20,720
Nope, that is incorrect.
He was a medical doctor.

247
00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,120
Not no to Mystic.
Yes to doctor.

248
00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:27,920
Stevenson eventually found him
was now the University of

249
00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:31,240
Virginia Division of Perceptual
Studies, or DOPS.

250
00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:36,120
Over several decades, his team
documented more than 2500 cases

251
00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,600
worldwide.
So I want that to sink in.

252
00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:42,040
Before I was researching for
this episode, I had heard some

253
00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:44,640
of these some of these stories,
I think maybe two or three that

254
00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:47,920
do that come up in in this as we
go through this episode.

255
00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:54,960
But more than 2500 cases of
children who remember lives that

256
00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:58,760
are not their own.
Like that's a lot and I know.

257
00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:00,680
It's kind of.
Ones and the right, those are

258
00:13:00,680 --> 00:13:03,120
the study ones, the recorded and
study ones, right?

259
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:05,760
And the art.
So they weren't just stories.

260
00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,840
Investigators interviewed
families, separate investigators

261
00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:12,240
interviewed families separately,
verified death records, cross

262
00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,800
checked geographic details and
documented statements before any

263
00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:17,880
potential matching individual
was identified.

264
00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:21,200
And I think that's important
because obviously if I'm

265
00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:23,800
identifying an individual, I'm
like, oh, little Johnny is

266
00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,200
definitely talking about Mr.
Rogers.

267
00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:30,120
I might be be inclined to ask
questions that direct him to

268
00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:32,280
identify this person as Mr.
Rogers, right?

269
00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:34,960
So I I appreciate that a lot.
Yeah.

270
00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:37,960
In some cases, children
correctly identified names of

271
00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,840
deceased individuals,
occupations, specific locations,

272
00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:45,360
unusual causes of death, details
that were later confirmed

273
00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:47,520
through public records.
That doesn't mean that

274
00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:49,840
reincarnation is proven.
I know I've said it before

275
00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:52,440
saying it again.
It does mean that something

276
00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:56,240
unusual was happening often
enough to justify systematic

277
00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:58,520
study.
And I think that's that's a cool

278
00:13:58,520 --> 00:13:59,800
statement.
It is happening.

279
00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:03,240
We see from the studies that
it's happening and it's a

280
00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,520
phenomenon, right?
It's just don't.

281
00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:09,480
Even 1 commonly cited type of
case involves children who

282
00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:11,760
describe violent or sudden
deaths.

283
00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,240
These kids often show intense
fears, recurrent nightmares,

284
00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:17,680
emotional distress tied to
specific imagery.

285
00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,840
In several documented instances,
children described plane

286
00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:26,760
crashing, crashings, plane
crashes, accidental drownings,

287
00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,800
workplace accidents, then
identify details that matched a

288
00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,360
specific deceased person unknown
to the family.

289
00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:35,160
As clinicians, for us that
raises hard questions.

290
00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,240
Trauma responses without trauma
exposure, PTSD like symptoms

291
00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:40,840
without a known precipitating
event.

292
00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,280
Now of course, to be responsible
we have to talk about the

293
00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:45,480
skeptical explanations because
there are several.

294
00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:49,000
These include crypto,
cryptomnesia or forgotten

295
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,920
memories, resurfacing, parental
queuing, whether it's

296
00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:55,480
intentional or not, cultural
storytelling or folklore, myths,

297
00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:58,840
fables, statistical coincidence.
I mean, coincidence has

298
00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,880
happened, right?
And then confirmation bias.

299
00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:05,680
So researchers like Jim Tucker,
who took over Stevenson's work,

300
00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:07,480
openly acknowledge these
limitations.

301
00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,880
And importantly, many cases do
not hold up under scrutiny.

302
00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:12,400
But let's talk about some that
do.

303
00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:16,120
This is the one I've heard the
most commonly.

304
00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:18,880
And it's, it's a little bit of a
vague 1, It's a little more

305
00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:21,040
anecdotal than some of the
others, but it is the one I've

306
00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,120
heard the most often.
There's a little boy in the

307
00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,440
American Midwest, barely old
enough to form full sentences to

308
00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:29,800
begin waking up screaming at
night, not crying, screaming.

309
00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:32,520
His parents, his parents
initially assumed it was normal

310
00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,280
childhood night terrors.
But then the words starting to

311
00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:37,080
come.
He talked about an airplane.

312
00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:39,960
He talked about fire, he talked
about the ocean.

313
00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:42,920
And then one night, he said
something that stopped his

314
00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:45,720
parents cold old.
He said the plane crashed.

315
00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:48,440
I couldn't get out.
Now, kids say strange things.

316
00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:50,440
But here's the problem.
This child had never been on a

317
00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:52,080
plane and had never seen one
crash.

318
00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:55,640
And his his parents were careful
about what media he was exposed

319
00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:57,640
to.
No war documentaries, no

320
00:15:57,640 --> 00:15:59,560
disaster footage.
I mean, I really got to kind of

321
00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,760
hope you're not showing your
toddler war documentaries a

322
00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:04,960
disaster.
No kidding.

323
00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:07,240
Well.
Here, little Timmy, let World

324
00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,200
War Three entertain you.
I didn't mean to say World War

325
00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:10,440
Three.
No, I take it back.

326
00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:15,560
Let World War 2 entertain you.
That should be fun.

327
00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:19,440
And the details didn't change
night after night, the same

328
00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:23,360
story, same phrases, same panic.
Eventually, as researchers would

329
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:27,160
later document the child begin
giving names, a ship, a time

330
00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,800
period, a type of aircraft.
Those details would later match

331
00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,480
a real U.S.
Navy pilot killed during World

332
00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:37,040
War 2.
This case, and hundreds like it,

333
00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,520
is part of a body of research
conducted, is part of the body

334
00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:42,520
of research conducted by Doctor
Stevenson.

335
00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:45,680
And before anyone tunes out,
Stevenson was not a fringe

336
00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:47,680
figure.
He was trained at Johns Hopkins.

337
00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:50,000
He published in medical
journals, and he approached

338
00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,680
these cases with extreme
caution.

339
00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,480
He didn't start with belief.
He started with irritation,

340
00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:57,560
because the cases wouldn't stop
coming.

341
00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:02,080
India, 1930s.
No Internet, no documentaries,

342
00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:06,599
no culture, a cultural trend of
past life stories, past life

343
00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:08,640
regressions, past life,
etcetera.

344
00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:12,440
A little girl named Shanti Devi
begins telling her parents that

345
00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,359
she is not their daughter.
She says she has another home,

346
00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:19,280
another husband, another life.
At first, her parents laugh it

347
00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:20,880
off.
Kids say strange things.

348
00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,440
But Shanti doesn't stop.
She names the city over 100

349
00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:26,520
miles away, a place she's never
visited.

350
00:17:26,599 --> 00:17:29,520
She describes a house, a
business, a man she calls her

351
00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:33,960
husband, and she speaks calmly
and repeatedly about dying in

352
00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,320
childbirth.
Her parents try everything.

353
00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:40,120
Correction, distraction,
punishment, prayer.

354
00:17:40,360 --> 00:17:42,400
Nothing works.
Eventually they're frightened

355
00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,720
enough to involve authorities,
and what follows is not a

356
00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:49,520
seance, not a ritual, not a
spiritual ceremony.

357
00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:54,880
They involved the authorities.
It's an investigation.

358
00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:57,080
The Monty is taken to the city
she named.

359
00:17:57,320 --> 00:17:59,160
She walks the street without
hesitation.

360
00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:01,080
She points to a house she's
never seen.

361
00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:03,840
She recognizes the man she
claims was her husband.

362
00:18:04,120 --> 00:18:06,840
She knows private details.
Later confirmed by independent

363
00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,280
sources, this case became one of
the earliest formally documented

364
00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:12,840
examples of a child describing a
previous life.

365
00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,680
The verifiable accuracy and
whether you believe the

366
00:18:16,120 --> 00:18:17,840
explanation or not, the records
exist.

367
00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:20,240
Wow, that's wild.
Hey I have a question though,

368
00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:22,360
how old was the husband do you
know?

369
00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:23,400
Was he?
Old, older.

370
00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:25,080
I don't know.
I wonder.

371
00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:28,240
I don't know.
To know how long it's been since

372
00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,600
she died in this version.
I agree.

373
00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,640
I don't know.
Conti's case isn't unique.

374
00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:38,040
It's just the beginning.
Across thousands of cases,

375
00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,400
certain patterns repeat.
The child is usually between two

376
00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,000
and six years old.
The memories emerge suddenly.

377
00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:46,480
The child expresses fear,
longing or grief.

378
00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:48,880
The details are specific,
sometimes verifiable.

379
00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,120
The family often tries to
discourage the story, and the

380
00:18:52,120 --> 00:18:54,200
memories fade.
By age 6 to 8.

381
00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,040
This is a fantasy play.
Fantasy changes.

382
00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,760
These stories don't.
And that brings us to one of the

383
00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:03,200
most emotionally heavy cases
ever reported, Scotland.

384
00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,280
A young boy named Cameron
McCauley begins talking about a

385
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:10,720
White House by the sea.
He describes an island, a dog, a

386
00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,200
family, a fall from a height and
a sudden death.

387
00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,960
He cries for his other mother.
He says he misses his other

388
00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:20,400
family.
He draws pictures of the house,

389
00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:24,120
always the same house.
His mother is confused, then

390
00:19:24,120 --> 00:19:27,280
worried, then heartbroken
because Cameron isn't telling a

391
00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:28,920
story.
He's grieving.

392
00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:31,680
Researchers eventually take
Cameron to the island he

393
00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,560
describes, and there it is, the
White House overlooking the

394
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:38,320
ocean, a house his family has
never seen, A house Cameron runs

395
00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:40,560
toward with the urgency of
someone returning home.

396
00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,560
Inside, he points out rooms he
names, objects he describes

397
00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:48,000
events that match the life of a
man who lived and died in that

398
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,520
house.
Not everything matches memories.

399
00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,360
Messy, but enough matches that
the case becomes one of the most

400
00:19:53,360 --> 00:19:56,400
compelling in modern research.
And again, the emotional tone

401
00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:58,680
matters.
Cameron isn't excited, he's

402
00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:00,520
devastated.
These cases aren't limited to

403
00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:04,480
one culture.
They appear in II Sri Lanka,

404
00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:09,160
Lebanon, Turkey, Thailand,
United States, Europe, Africa.

405
00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:11,400
I mean, why don't we just say
all over the world?

406
00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,560
Yeah, really sounds like it.
Some cultures interpret them

407
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,520
spiritually, others suppress
them.

408
00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:18,760
Some families hide them out of
fear of stigma.

409
00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:21,720
But the patterns remain
consistent across language,

410
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,440
geography, religion,
socioeconomic status.

411
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,080
This consistency is part of what
drew researchers to the

412
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:31,840
phenomenon.
Now we move to a case that feels

413
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,400
uncomfortably modern because
it's verifiable in a way earlier

414
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:37,880
cases weren't.
The boy in the United States,

415
00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:41,440
Ryan Hammonds begins describing
a life in Los Angeles.

416
00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,600
He talks about working in the
film industry, multiple

417
00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:48,920
marriages, a sudden death,
specific films from the 1930s

418
00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,720
and 40s, relationships between
actors behind the scenes.

419
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:54,760
Details no preschooler should
know.

420
00:20:55,120 --> 00:20:58,280
His parents tried to debunk him.
They actively tried to disprove

421
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:00,640
his claims.
Eventually, researchers match

422
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,280
his statements to a real
Hollywood agent named Marty

423
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,040
Martin.
Public records confirm details

424
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,520
Ryan gave before anyone
suggested a name.

425
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,080
But what stands out isn't the
accuracy.

426
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,720
It's the regret.
Ryan talks about his mistakes.

427
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,880
Remember, this is a preschooler
talks about his mistakes, about

428
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,160
wishing he'd live differently,
about wanting another chance.

429
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,640
Regret implies reflection,
something rare in a child so

430
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:27,920
young.
And I also find it fascinating

431
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:32,920
that I think we're also seeing
the preschooler there, because

432
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:37,080
technically being Ryan would be
another chance, wouldn't it?

433
00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:41,480
I would think so, but maybe he's
thinking the chance to have

434
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:43,400
rewritten.
His mistake.

435
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,560
Marty's, Marty's life.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking

436
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:47,800
too.
But I just, it would be really

437
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:49,480
interesting.
I didn't do any recent, you

438
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,960
know, sometimes as I'm saying
it, then I'm like, oh, I should

439
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,280
have thought to look this up.
But it would be interesting to

440
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:59,760
know what kind of what Ryan was
like outside of this part of

441
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:01,320
him.
Is he a propitious little

442
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:03,640
sticker?
Or was he, like, just thoughtful

443
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,000
and studious?
And you know, I mean, I'm so

444
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:07,760
curious.
Yeah, good question.

445
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:12,560
Sri Lanka A girl named Purnima
Eken Nayaki insists she wants

446
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:17,480
lived as a man who made incense.
She describes the materials, the

447
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:22,160
technique, the smell, the
workshop, the town, the sudden

448
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,200
death.
Her family doesn't make incense.

449
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:26,280
She has no exposure to the
trade.

450
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,280
Investigators later confirmed
the existence of an incense

451
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:31,920
maker whose life and death align
with her account.

452
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,680
Her family's embarrassed.
They want the claims to stop,

453
00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:36,920
but they don't.
Wonder why they're embarrassed?

454
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:39,280
I do too.
I think it goes back to that

455
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:43,440
cultural acceptance, you know,
in India, they seem to be much

456
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,960
more culturally accepting of
this idea than they do in say,

457
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,160
Sri Lanka.
And it looks like I think in the

458
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,440
United States you'd probably see
a, a split if you were to pull

459
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,920
people if, if you will.
I don't really know about any of

460
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,160
the other countries, but it does
seem to responses definitely

461
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,840
seem to be based on cultural
norms and that sort of thing.

462
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,440
And maybe it making this up.
I don't know anything, but maybe

463
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,760
they they associate it with
something evil or or something

464
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,560
like that, you know, who knows?
Yeah, possession or something.

465
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,720
OK, India again.
A girl named Swarn Lada Mishra

466
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,000
demonstrates knowledge of music
and dance forms she's never been

467
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,560
trained in.
She recognizes compositions.

468
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,600
She identifies instruments.
She corrects adults.

469
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,360
She describes a previous life as
a performer.

470
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,840
Investigators trace her
descriptions to a real woman

471
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,720
whose biography matches Swarn
Lada's claims with unsettling

472
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:38,960
closeness.
This case introduces a new

473
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:43,120
dimension skill transfer, not
just memory ability.

474
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:47,560
Imagine having a preschool or a
toddler whatever have you and

475
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:51,880
one day they just start dancing
the Swan Lake on point.

476
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:56,240
Just do it perfectly like what?
And so it you know, it makes

477
00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,720
makes me well, I'm plagiarizing
you makes me think about like

478
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:02,800
skill transfer.
Could I just what if we could

479
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,040
have skill transfer of like
cooking or I don't know what

480
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:07,880
else is cool to do.
Math.

481
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:12,160
Math.
And since we both mentioned this

482
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:16,280
is a lack.
And here's where medicine enters

483
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:18,440
the conversation.
These children often present

484
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:22,360
with nightmares, phobias, panic
attacks, somatic symptoms,

485
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,960
anxiety tied to the death.
They describe these real

486
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,240
symptoms.
And when symptoms appear without

487
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,520
a clear cause, clinicians don't
dismiss them.

488
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,200
They investigate.
Because trauma without an

489
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,640
identifiable source is still
trauma.

490
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,000
And these cases behave like
trauma.

491
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,400
The University of Virginia's DO
PS has spent decades studying

492
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:44,720
these cases.
Their work doesn't claim

493
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:46,560
certainty.
It claims patterns.

494
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:48,800
Patterns that challenge our
understanding of memory,

495
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,240
identity, consciousness, the
boundaries of the self.

496
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,240
Whether these cases represent
reincarnation, inherited memory,

497
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,240
dissociation, or we didn't even
talk about dissociation or

498
00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:59,960
something we haven't named yet,
they point to gaps in our

499
00:24:59,960 --> 00:25:03,280
current models and medicine
advances by exploring gaps.

500
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,800
You know what?
I've been as I was trying to

501
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,160
reconcile this in my own mind.
I think I've told you.

502
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,080
I'm sure I've told you, but I
don't know if I've ever said it

503
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,800
in the podcast.
I believe in basically a

504
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,200
universal net or shared common
consciousness.

505
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:19,920
I don't know, I don't know, I
don't know what to call it.

506
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,400
We're all connected on a cosmic
level to some degree.

507
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,760
I could see this being like, you
know how I mean, I'm sure you've

508
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,000
been on a phone call and
suddenly somebody else is on

509
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,200
your phone call and the the
wires have crossed, right, The

510
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,280
lines have crossed, whatever.
And I, I sometimes wonder if

511
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:37,440
it's just that, if it's just
like they're getting this

512
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:42,320
download or this, this not
download, but this signal that's

513
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,360
just not meant for them.
But it did.

514
00:25:44,360 --> 00:25:46,560
The wires got crossed.
I don't know.

515
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:51,080
Have you had any experiences
with children knowing too much?

516
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,440
I have.
I was thinking about this

517
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:58,520
because my daughter, when she
was born, her great grandmother,

518
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:03,120
died literally in the same
hospital at nearly the same

519
00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:05,680
time.
And I couldn't go see Grandma

520
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,880
Miller because I was in labor
and then had a season, so I was

521
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,240
busy.
But Juliana always had a special

522
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,400
connection to her.
And when she was quite young,

523
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,480
she saw a picture of Great
Grandma Miller that neither of

524
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:21,920
us had ever seen before.
Because I don't remember why we

525
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,680
hadn't seen it, but we did.
And Juliana was old enough to

526
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,800
say that's Great Grandma Miller.
And we knew she hadn't seen her,

527
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,840
but she recognized her, and
everyone was really surprised.

528
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,880
And they always had.
She always had special feelings

529
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:38,920
towards her.
There wasn't like a shared

530
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,400
memory, like she didn't say and
then Grandma Miller and I did,

531
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,120
blah, blah, blah.
But she always felt specially

532
00:26:44,120 --> 00:26:45,960
close to her.
And Grandma Miller was

533
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,400
crocheting an Afghan for
Juliana.

534
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,600
And right the week she was, she
died.

535
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:56,600
She had started it and she had
like one strip done and then I

536
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,280
got that strip and the ball of
yarn that was involved with it,

537
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,080
but I don't know how to crochet.
So I never did anything with it.

538
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,000
And then when Juliana moved out,
I said here you go.

539
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:08,360
And I had, And I have no idea
what the status of that is now.

540
00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:11,080
I don't know if Juliana still
has it or not, but that special

541
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:15,000
bond was always cool to me, even
though I knew she had not met

542
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,960
her.
On this side of life, if you

543
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:20,800
will.
That's fun.

544
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,480
I also wanted I would really
love to know Juliana has has

545
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:28,000
treasured that or if it's long
gone and I have no judgement

546
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,200
either way, I'm just curious.
Yeah, me too.

547
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:31,840
I know she did for a very long
time.

548
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:33,720
We haven't talked about it for
years.

549
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:38,000
But Juliana, when you listen to
this, comment on Spotify or send

550
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,280
us an e-mail and let us know,
because I know she listens.

551
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,360
Yay.
Everything just left my brain,

552
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,600
it's empty black hole.
Nice.

553
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,080
I mean good timing.
I know, I know, right?

554
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:50,240
Great timing.
I don't know.

555
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,280
I can't remember what I was
going to say, but one of the

556
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,480
things that I thought was
interesting is what if this were

557
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,240
not children?
What if this were adults doing

558
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,640
the same thing?
Do you think it would be as

559
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,320
interesting?
I think it would be more

560
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,000
disproved or more disbelieved
because I think that people

561
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,760
would always think that there
was an ulterior motive and the

562
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,400
person was lying.
OK, and I do remember what I

563
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,320
would say, I will say this about
that, but and hopefully I won't

564
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,680
lose this thing again.
But one thing I will say about

565
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,640
that is certainly an adult has
significantly more resources and

566
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,880
capabilities for research and
and even cover up, right?

567
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,520
Like you can maybe do some
research and then you can cover

568
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:28,680
up the fact that you did this
research.

569
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,760
It reminds me of a person I was
interviewing for another podcast

570
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:37,360
I used to do.
And it it was he was trying.

571
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:39,600
He was telling me he was a
psychic and he was trying to

572
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,040
demonstrate his psychic
abilities.

573
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:49,720
Yeah, he he had clearly gone
gone through my Facebook and

574
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:51,320
gleaned some information about
me.

575
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,200
And at first, right at the
beginning of the call, he had

576
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,320
said something.
And I was like, holy moly there.

577
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,320
You know, that's amazing.
And it was something about my

578
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:02,120
aunt who has passed and
ironically enough, the same aunt

579
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:06,600
who if you listen to our episode
about COVID, I had to say in

580
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,120
front of my boss, my aunt is
dead.

581
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,840
But not really.
You'll know that story if you

582
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,160
have listened to it.
Anyway, so then, and then he

583
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,720
said he so he came up with two
things that were like wildly

584
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,160
specific.
And he kind of like, he kind of

585
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,320
he did this like, OK, so my
aunt's name is Annetta.

586
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,640
And he was like somebody
Annette, Annette, Annette,

587
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,040
right.
Anyway, there was just something

588
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:34,160
about his, I don't know,
something about him and the way

589
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,800
he was presenting it that I was
just kind of like, I don't, I'm

590
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,120
not feeling this right, Like I
don't think so.

591
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,960
And so I told our Co executive
Narco I we're the executive

592
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,200
producers of this.
They told our executive producer

593
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,600
who I was not a Co with.
I told our executive producer of

594
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,320
that podcast that I just wasn't
feeling great about, about

595
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,840
having this guy on our show.
And he was like, no, you know,

596
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,400
let me, let me talk to him and
I'll get a feel for him.

597
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,400
And then we'll kind of decide if
we want to have this guest.

598
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,640
And it was really interesting
because when Topher talked to

599
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,160
him, he kind of did the same
sort of thing.

600
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:15,920
But where he didn't know he had
messed up is he referred to 1 of

601
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:20,200
Tofers friends by their given
name that they would were on

602
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,800
Facebook as but that person
didn't go by that name right?

603
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,000
And so Topher knew that it
wasn't legitimate.

604
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:31,200
Basically, I think if a
three-year old were telling me

605
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,320
that my aunt and that I had
something to say to me, I think

606
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,240
that I'd have a very different
response.

607
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,840
Yeah, exactly.
That's what I that's what I

608
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:41,800
mean.
Because there wouldn't be the

609
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:43,600
secondary gain.
There would be nothing they

610
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,320
could possibly get from it,
unlike an adult who's trying to

611
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:50,800
play you somehow.
And I think to me it's more air

612
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:52,760
quote legitimate.
And I don't even know if the air

613
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:56,040
quotes are necessary, but to me
it's more believable.

614
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,160
Maybe no more explainable, but
more believable.

615
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,080
So why would you do if you were,
let's say, working in a clinic

616
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:06,200
and a parent came in with this,
with this story and

617
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:10,080
specifically, Oh, that just
reminded me anyway, specifically

618
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:18,480
squirrel with this story saying
my child is has has symptoms of

619
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:20,880
trauma.
How would you respond to that as

620
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,280
a nurse?
I'd say your doctor will be

621
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:27,120
right in.
I think that, I mean, I

622
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,440
obviously would also say your
doctor will be right in, but I

623
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:30,080
think.
That.

624
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,840
You know, I would, it's so
tricky because I would be like

625
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,760
what's in this for the parent?
Well, and I know.

626
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:40,120
That's a really skeptical, like
pessimistic point of view, but.

627
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:41,320
Right.
Does it make sense?

628
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,000
I know I would tend to believe
the child because I believe in

629
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,960
stuff like that.
But it also depends, like you

630
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,000
were talking earlier, culturally
there are some people who don't

631
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:52,400
believe that.
There's some countries who don't

632
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:53,880
believe that.
There's some people that now

633
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,800
will think they're possessed or
something along that and it

634
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:58,200
could have a whole different
meaning.

635
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,480
And like you were talking about
Sri Lanka having more difficulty

636
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,160
with this and the things you've
you've researched.

637
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,440
It's probably a cultural thing,
as in many of these things are.

638
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,440
So whether they'd be believed or
not from the point of view of

639
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,560
the nurse or the doctor or
whoever they see would depend a

640
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:21,200
lot on that person, the region
they're in, their belief systems

641
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,280
as well.
And I think the thing to do is

642
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,920
to support the child in the
family, to help them through

643
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,440
whatever this is.
I would be, I would be

644
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:32,560
skeptical.
I would definitely be on.

645
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:40,000
I'd be on alert to see if I saw
any queuing or nudging or

646
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,000
correcting.
I don't know.

647
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,080
I'm.
Or even scripting because child

648
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,280
If a child is explaining
something that they haven't been

649
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:53,120
coached in or scripted for, it's
much more obvious than if an

650
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,240
adult has been coached.
Because a child will use.

651
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,200
If they're saying it in their
own words, they'll use their own

652
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,200
words.
They won't usually use advanced

653
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,640
words, but in some of these
cases it sounds like they have

654
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,680
used advanced words because
they're recalling something that

655
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,480
wasn't their experience of their
age.

656
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:13,840
Does that make?
Sense Well, yeah, it does.

657
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,200
And if you take Arden Hayes, the
cute little I don't know if you

658
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:18,880
ever saw him on Jimmy Kimmel
Live or Ellen or anything, he's

659
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,440
he's a 17 year old now, but he
was a cute little 5 year old and

660
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,600
with his thing, he knew all the
presidential facts and he could

661
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:29,680
identify any country on a map in
the world and I think he could

662
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,120
tell you the capital of things
like that.

663
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,120
But in that case it, it was Rome
memorization, right?

664
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,360
Like he he didn't come out of
the womb and know every single

665
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:42,720
president's trivia, right.
And so I think that, but you

666
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,200
would probably see that as a
matter of fact, I can confirm

667
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,240
that when Arden Hayes would
answer questions on these talk

668
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,360
shows, you know, what's what's
Abraham Lincoln's middle name?

669
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,400
I don't know making stuff up,
but it he'd answer the same way,

670
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:56,760
right.
It was always the same words.

671
00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:59,600
And that's kind of I think what
you're saying about if they

672
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:03,400
were, if they had been coached
or been scripted, then they

673
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,800
would just basically it would,
it would sound probably wrote

674
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:13,320
right ROTE of ER.
And then I had this is a little

675
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,239
more, this is a little less
sciency and a little more eerie

676
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,320
fairy.
But I did want to just take a

677
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,880
minute to to talk about and to
think about.

678
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:25,560
Do you think that there is
something that there's a there

679
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:29,320
are ways that children perceive
the world that adults lose and

680
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,840
that that might have something
that that might have some impact

681
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:37,360
on memory and identity?
Yes, I I do think that because

682
00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:43,920
so if I had an adult and they
got some sort of memory or

683
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,960
download or whatever you want to
call it and they would filter it

684
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,280
through whatever their life
experiences has been.

685
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:52,760
And they probably wouldn't
believe it.

686
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:54,719
They would probably think they
were crazy.

687
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,560
They were probably think all of
a child doesn't have all that

688
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,360
filtering going on because they
simply have not experienced

689
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:05,600
things to make those filters.
So I say a child, child would be

690
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:10,240
much more ready to have these
memories or receive this

691
00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:12,840
information or whatever it is we
want to call it.

692
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,160
And it would be pure.
It wouldn't.

693
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,880
Child wouldn't really question
it because they don't have any

694
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:20,080
reason to.
They're just.

695
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,480
Like that makes perfect sense.
I remember this.

696
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:24,960
OK.
Yeah, so there it is.

697
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,280
I, I realized I kind of walked
away from this.

698
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:32,160
I was proposing that maybe
there's a crossed line sort of

699
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,880
situation, crossed wires.
Do you have a theory on on what

700
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:41,640
this might be on the spot?
You know, I think not

701
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,240
necessarily.
I think what you're saying about

702
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:49,800
cross wires or maybe something
like that makes sense, but I

703
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:54,120
can't say what I could call it
because if I couldn't even call

704
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,600
it a false memory I don't think.
I think it's just a recovered

705
00:35:57,600 --> 00:35:59,240
memory even maybe.
Yeah.

706
00:35:59,240 --> 00:36:02,920
And I think it's, you know, it's
possible maybe it's not even a

707
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:06,240
single explanation like is it?
Is it possible that multiple

708
00:36:06,240 --> 00:36:10,520
explanations you can coexist?
You know, we're kind of in this

709
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,080
black and white binary,
one-size-fits-all, but maybe,

710
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:15,800
maybe it's not.
It's true and also I'm

711
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,200
wondering.
Heavy, not heavy like bad heavy,

712
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:22,000
but it's it's a lie it.
Is well, and the one thing that

713
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,520
comes to my mind is why do these
memories recur?

714
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:27,680
What is the point?
Is there?

715
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,440
Is there a grand scheme of
things that this memory needed

716
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,320
to be brought forward?
Do I know the answer?

717
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:36,640
No, not even a little.
Bit I don't either.

718
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,240
But it's a, it is as you say,
it's a, it's a head.

719
00:36:39,240 --> 00:36:42,320
Scratcher and it would be
interesting to know it would be

720
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,640
interesting to know how these
children are now.

721
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,040
Like do they remember the
memories still do they didn't

722
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,200
you say that they usually forget
it around the age of I did I

723
00:36:52,240 --> 00:36:54,160
did.
But like in some of these cases,

724
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,280
right, they got famous ish
right.

725
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,760
Notoriety word.
But yeah, notoriety.

726
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:02,920
And so, you know, maybe because
it got put into the zeitgeist,

727
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:07,400
they may remember it more
because they have exterior clues

728
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:09,480
maybe, you know?
Triggers.

729
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:11,360
Triggers.
Yes, that.

730
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:13,080
Yeah, exactly.
I don't know.

731
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,000
Me either.
Do you have any other stories

732
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:17,240
though?
This is really, really

733
00:37:17,240 --> 00:37:20,760
interesting.
I don't think I do not have any

734
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,040
more stories.
Do the scientists that study

735
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,240
this have any theories?
I mean, you know that you said

736
00:37:25,240 --> 00:37:27,000
that a lot of people are
studying it, but what the heck

737
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:28,880
did they think?
They don't really.

738
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,320
They don't really.
I mean, maybe if I read the

739
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,720
entire study and it's in its raw
form, I would find something,

740
00:37:34,720 --> 00:37:39,000
but I didn't really see anything
that said any theories.

741
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:40,600
They don't really give any
theories.

742
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:44,600
And then I mean, I think that
they're probably just like we

743
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:48,280
are frankly trying to avoid any
appearance of like, oh, we're

744
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,840
proving reincarnation because I
don't think I to be clear, I

745
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,800
actually even, I don't even
think it's fair to say this does

746
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,680
or can prove reincarnation.
I think there's far too many

747
00:37:57,680 --> 00:37:59,680
more explanations then I do that
a lot.

748
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,040
This it's just because I'm
baffled because I mean, we could

749
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:08,240
really, really get into some
crazy hypotheses and you know,

750
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:13,960
maybe you think about how you
can't destroy matter, right?

751
00:38:14,240 --> 00:38:18,000
Matter stays matter.
You can transfer it, you can

752
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,760
whatever it you could push it
away, but you can't destroy it.

753
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:24,200
Like matter stays change state,
change state, right?

754
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:30,040
And so maybe like, as we live
and die and live and die and

755
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,520
live and die and live and die on
this Earth, maybe like there's

756
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:38,200
just atoms of another person
that happened to store these

757
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,560
memories that come out.
I don't know.

758
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:41,960
You gotta make sense.
I don't know.

759
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:43,280
Oh, yeah.
My memories.

760
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:47,400
So yeah.
This.

761
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:49,360
Is gonna theories any really,
isn't it?

762
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:51,320
Right.
Yeah, that's what I that's what

763
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:55,080
I'm saying is like there's just,
you really can think about if

764
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:59,080
they continue to study this and
they make a breakthrough

765
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:03,080
discovery and we find out
something scientific, so not

766
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:06,040
reincarnation.
Like what would that, what

767
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,680
would, why can't I speak
English, think about the impact

768
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:13,280
that could have on mental health
and trauma and healing.

769
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:19,240
And like, maybe this is a key to
a greater understanding and more

770
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,360
increased ability to treat the
human mind.

771
00:39:23,720 --> 00:39:26,000
Yeah.
Well, and it could be.

772
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,760
And one of the things we do know
is that we don't know much about

773
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:31,640
the brain.
Yeah, exactly.

774
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:35,120
All the study.
Yeah, man, the brain.

775
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:36,840
I say this every time we talk
about the brain.

776
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,960
The brain, Like, the fact that
you can have a hemispherectomy

777
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:44,680
and still, like, exist and be an
abled human being is wild.

778
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:48,800
Exactly.
All right, Well, in conclusion,

779
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:51,960
and I feel like I'm doing a high
school book report, and in

780
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:54,880
conclusion, I'm not asking you
to believe these children.

781
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:57,120
I'm asking you to believe they
are.

782
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,160
They are in distress to
acknowledge that something's

783
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,920
happening, something we don't
fully understand, and to sit

784
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,200
with the discomfort of
uncertainty because sometimes

785
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,040
the most honest sentence in
medicine is also the hardest one

786
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,120
to say we don't know yet.
I don't know.

787
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,320
Yeah, no, it's true.
And there's a lot that we don't

788
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:16,040
know.
There's a lot that we don't

789
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,640
know.
But I think it's one of those

790
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:22,520
opportunities to really listen
to the person who's describing

791
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:24,600
all of this and see if we can
figure it out.

792
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:26,320
I mean, what would we do as
nurses?

793
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:30,440
And I, I did say sort of tongue
in cheek saying your doctor's on

794
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:35,360
the way in.
But, but really we as nurses are

795
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:41,200
the ground workers, if you will,
and having the the daily contact

796
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:45,200
with patients, if we don't have
the compassion for whatever

797
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:48,240
they're experiencing for
whatever reason, that's going to

798
00:40:48,240 --> 00:40:50,960
change their experience
completely, especially if

799
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:55,680
they're children and they're
treated poorly or they're teased

800
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:57,640
or whatever.
That's going to set their the

801
00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:59,920
rest, the kind of the tone for
the rest of their life for

802
00:40:59,920 --> 00:41:03,320
medical care.
Yeah, I'm going to ask my mom if

803
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:05,720
I'm.
I just got to thinking, like,

804
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,280
for all we know, Andrea, you and
I had memories like this and we

805
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:11,040
just got old.
It's like the Peter Pan

806
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,440
situation, right?
We got old and we forgot the

807
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:15,800
opposite of Peter Pan syndrome,
I guess.

808
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:19,320
But like, like, what if we had
memories like this and now we

809
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,640
just don't have them anymore?
Like, I'm very curious and I'm

810
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,240
sad that your mom's not lucid
enough that you can ask her, but

811
00:41:25,240 --> 00:41:27,800
my mom is and I'm going to ask
her if I ever did anything like

812
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:31,080
this or came out from left field
with information or something

813
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:34,200
because that would be something
really interesting to know about

814
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:35,680
myself.
And maybe I haven't, maybe I'm

815
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:37,960
just reaching for straws and
being a goofball, but I am

816
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:41,000
curious because who knows?
Like it could.

817
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,640
Just because 2500 people were
studied doesn't mean that

818
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:46,800
1,000,000 don't have memories
like this.

819
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:48,800
Who knows, right?
I'm just probably throwing stuff

820
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:50,240
out there, but.
Well, exactly.

821
00:41:50,240 --> 00:41:53,400
And also, in most cases, most
families would just say, huh,

822
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:54,920
that's cute.
Yeah, yeah.

823
00:41:55,240 --> 00:41:58,120
Right, exactly because why would
they think of anything else,

824
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,000
really?
Yeah, yeah, it just.

825
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:04,360
And I remember reading a story
where a child remembered dying

826
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:06,600
in the Trade Trade Center.
Really.

827
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:08,880
Yeah.
And they remembered being

828
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:10,200
someone who jumped out of a
window.

829
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:13,320
I know that would be very
traumatic.

830
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:18,160
And that's where I wonder why.
Why does this child have to deal

831
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:21,520
with that?
But, and I, it's been long

832
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,440
enough since I read the story.
I don't recall details but I

833
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:29,600
just remember them telling their
parent this and the parent just

834
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,920
being devastated that's this kid
was even feeling anything about

835
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:35,400
that or knew anything about it.
Or any of it, right.

836
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:39,120
So yeah, that's the thing too
that really interested me about

837
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,000
this topic and why I wanted to
choose it was was the details.

838
00:42:42,240 --> 00:42:46,560
The like this wasn't like I was
an old man and now I'm a baby,

839
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:49,080
right?
It was the the name of the

840
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:54,680
airplane and the model and the
war zone and the and the date

841
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:58,440
and the White House on the coast
and the, you know, all of that.

842
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:01,480
Like that's and to have it
provable, right?

843
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:04,280
Like it's one thing to have a
kid be like, oh, there's a White

844
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,520
House on the coast and there's a
fence and somebody fell and I'm

845
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:09,880
so sad.
It's another thing to have a

846
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:11,320
child drawing pictures of a
house.

847
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,560
They've never seen and then
showing it to you when you take

848
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:20,400
them to where they say it is.
Exactly right, Right.

849
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:25,240
That would be wild and difficult
for I would think as a parent to

850
00:43:25,240 --> 00:43:28,680
go, Oh yeah, that makes sense.
I can't think of any

851
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:32,040
circumstances where my children
did anything like this so.

852
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:33,640
Right, Right.
It's wild.

853
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:35,640
Well, that's cool.
Really interesting story.

854
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:37,440
But I hope it wasn't too
disjointed.

855
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:39,520
Listeners let us know if it was
too disjointed.

856
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:42,520
Also, welcome to our minds.
That's right.

857
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:46,280
All right, Thanks and soon.
Bye.

858
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:48,800
All right.
If you've made it this far,

859
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,480
clearly you like a little mayhem
with your medicine.

860
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,280
Or you just enjoy hearing us
ramble about weird medical

861
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:56,480
mysteries.
Either way, we'd love you for

862
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:58,720
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863
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864
00:44:00,240 --> 00:44:02,240
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865
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,080
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866
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:07,520
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867
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:10,400
Oh so many.
Come join the chaos.

868
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,560
Thanks for listening to
Medicine, Mystery, mayhem, and

869
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:15,960
sometimes Murder.
Do you have an idea for an

870
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,760
episode of this podcast?
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871
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:22,120
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872
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:28,840
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873
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:32,960
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874
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,720
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875
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:40,600
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