Toxic

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Welcome to M4 Medicine, mystery,
mayhem, and sometimes murder.

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I'm Andrea Marciano and RN with
35 years of experience across

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various fields.
From direct patient care in

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hospitals to home health,
geriatrics, and injury medicine,

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I face life, death, and
everything in between.

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And I'm Crystal Miller and RN
with 13 1/2 years of experience.

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My work spans home health,
Hospice, emergency care,

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geriatrics, and occupational
health.

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From the chaos of trauma based
quiet moments with patients,

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I've seen stories that defy
explanations.

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We've been friends for over 25
years and as nurses we've shared

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countless stories that have left
us and our families speechless.

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Now we're bringing those stories
and many more to you in

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medicine, mystery, mayhem, and
sometimes murder.

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Each week, we'll uncover cases
that challenge the boundaries of

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medicine, sharing the human
stories behind the science.

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From puzzling medical mysteries
to shocking real life crimes,

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we'll bring you stories that'll
leave you questioning everything

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you thought you knew while.
We're both experiencing these

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nurses.
We want to make it clear we're

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not here to give medical advice.
This podcast is about

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storytelling, education and
exploration, not diagnosing or

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treating medical conditions.
This is medicine, mystery,

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mayhem and sometimes murder.
Let's dive in.

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Hey Crystal, how are you doing?
I'm doing well.

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How are you?
I am very well, thank you.

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Anything exciting going on?
Anything you want to talk about

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top of the episode?
I don't know when this is going

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to air, but I don't know if it
was yesterday or the day before,

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but the Mexican Navy ship sailed
into the Brooklyn Bridge and it

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was too tall.
Too tall?

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Well, yeah, and, and the tides
were obviously too high.

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So whoever was plotting this
plan is probably looking for a

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new job.
And it's like they know how tall

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the ship is.
They know how tall the bridge is

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or the span is.
There have to be times when it

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would have fit because no one's
that dumb.

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Are they?
Even I can tell it was too big

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for the space.
And I have.

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I'm specially challenged.
So am I and I don't, I don't

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know anything about sailing at
all.

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But there were people actually
hanging off of the mast that had

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broken and that I don't know why
they were up there doing sailing

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stuff, I imagine, but it was.
No, they weren't No, it was

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decorative.
They that's not something.

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Well, what happened is they were
leaving a pier and it was some

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big sort of celebration because
the ship the way I it was in

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Spanish.
But what I think I heard is that

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they were traveling to Iceland
and everyone was super excited

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and woo Hoo, they so they were
standing up there just for fun.

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I don't know if they were still
on there when it hit, but they

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could.
They were they.

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Were it looked like somebody and
in the distance from the pier to

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to the span under the bridge
wasn't very far.

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And I think it's interesting
that nobody looked it's to see

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if it was going to clear.
But the thing about perception

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is and and distance is it it
could have looked OK.

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Somebody standing on the pier
might have thought, oh, that

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looks really close.
But they would have probably

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thought, as I would have, that,
oh, they must know what they're

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doing, right?
Yeah, yeah.

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But yeah, I don't know.
Did you hear if anyone was

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killed on that?
I didn't hear thought.

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Three people were.
It'd be surprising if no one was

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because I couldn't tell in one
of the views I saw whether there

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were still people on the on the
mast and the sale sale braces,

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but it was terrible.
Can you imagine?

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Crew members 2 crew members were
killed.

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Yeah, probably on the very top
because they were couldn't have

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moved fast enough and it's not
like they can just jump off.

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I mean, it's very, very high.
I doubt the Hudson is that is

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deep enough to jump from that
height is what I was going to

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say.
Oh, I'm sure it is because

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there's big ships that go
through all their time.

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OK, maybe I don't know anything
about Hudson.

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Or so right, right in the middle
there's going to be a channel

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because there are big ships that
go up there but not, I mean not

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like big liners, but I mean big
cargo ships.

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But I imagine, I don't know.
Yeah, I don't know what the size

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is either, but it's definitely
deep enough for people.

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But even still, when a person
jumps into water, it's like

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jumping onto cement because
unless their position just

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right, they don't basically
slice through the water.

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But one time I used to sail with
my my mom's friends a lot.

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And one time we were sailing and
there was a problem with the

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mast.
One of the lines had gotten

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twisted and we were on the
Sacramento River.

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We're just kind of cruising
around on the river.

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And my mom and brother and
sister were there with our

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friends Lenny and Louise.
And Lenny had something that had

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to be fixed, but he couldn't be
at the top of the mask and have

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go up and down very easily.
So he he said, who wants to go

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up?
I'm like, I do, I do.

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Mom said, no one's going up and
I said no, I do.

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So he rigged this little chair
thing and I lift pulled me up

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and it was about 20 feet up and
the weight of my body at the top

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of the mast made it go sail, go
back and forth.

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And it would it would it was
moving, but I was in the chair

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and I had this mistaken identity
that Lenny wouldn't mistaken

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idea that Lenny wouldn't put me
anywhere unsafe and he wouldn't

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intentionally, but it was still
sort of jury rigged.

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And my mom was down down below
screaming don't fall.

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I'm like, like, I'm going to do
that on purpose.

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So I was able to disconnect the
the part that was stuck and sent

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the line down so Lenny could
check it to make sure it wasn't

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broken because he didn't know
why it got tangled because

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obviously lines are not supposed
to get tangled because that is a

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problem.
I sent it down and it ended up

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having one part that needed
replaced.

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And he did that while I was
sitting up on top of the mast I

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had.
I remember I had my arms around

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the mast while I was just
waiting because it was moving, I

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mean 1015 feet side to side and
back and forth.

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And I don't think I could do it
now without throwing up.

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But then it was a grand
adventure and I came down and

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they're like, you're so brave
and.

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But also as young enough not to
really think about it being a

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dangerous activity.
But that was only 10.

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Yeah, 15 feet.
And these folks were, gosh, they

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were easily 40 feet above the
the surface. 147 feet.

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Yeah.
I imagine because they were 40

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feet above their at least.
I mean, I don't know, they're.

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They were above their ship base
too, and then above the water.

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And whether.
Yeah, well, it was 140.

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The whole ship was 147.
And the Brooklyn Bridge

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clearance was 127, but they were
drifting.

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I just read a little bit about
it.

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They were drifting because of
the tides and the winds and the

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whatever.
So they they actually weren't

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supposed to go under the
Brooklyn Bridge.

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So it's always 120.
I figured it must have been a

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tide here. 27 Oh, I don't know
it just it.

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That's what this article I read
said.

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That was the.
Ironic if I mean not hilarious

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because people got hurt and
that's got to be it didn't total

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the ship, but it certainly it
certainly damaged it greatly.

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But wow, two people to have died
for some crazy thing and they

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they just probably just no one
was paying attention.

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It's pretty wild.
Well, note to self, stay off a

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ship that is too big to go, our
boat that is too big to go under

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whatever I saw not too long ago
where somebody's semi truck did

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something similar with an
overpass, but obviously there's

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a truck and ripped off the top
three feet of his, his trailer.

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And I mean, all of them have all
of the truck drivers have

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notification of the bridges that
are too short to go under based

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on whatever they have.
But he, I don't know if he just

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wasn't paying attention or maybe
he was driving a different rig

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than he usually does, but it
didn't go well.

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And he's also probably looking
for a job probably anyway.

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Well, so I guess neither of us
in grave danger of doing any of

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those things, but we will have
to remember that for our future

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lives if we ever decide to be
pirates or something.

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Can you imagine?
No, we'd be too polite.

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We'd be like, excuse me, we are
going to rob you.

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We'll try not to do a lot of
damage.

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Yeah, I guess there's that part
too, I just being in open water

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and getting scurvy or something.
But anyway, today I'm talking

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about the case of the toxic
lady.

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Have you ever heard of it,
Crystal?

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I have in fact.
Wow, that's awesome.

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I hadn't heard of it in a way
that I remembered any anyway in

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detail.
As I started to doing the

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research, I realized maybe I had
heard of it, but this woman's

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name was Gloria Ramirez and her
story is tragic on several

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levels.
But for this topic, my sources

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are there was a Bing video I
watch, you know, of course only

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the best videos to bring in, but
it was interesting because it

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covered it pretty well.
And then Gloria Ramirez and the

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mysterious death of the toxic
lady.

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Gloria Ramirez, the strange
death of a toxic woman.

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And there was an article
published in 2022 and then

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update in 2024 from a source
called The Grunge, and it's the

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Truth about the Mysterious Toxic
Lady.

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So these were all sources I
found.

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There were a whole lot of other
things, but basically these are

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the ones I mostly use because I
got the gist of it all.

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I liked that this one article
was updated in 2024, so if any

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relevant changes needed to be
made, that it was so one of the

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reasons you and I are here is
because of medical mysteries,

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right?
That's one of the reasons, well,

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and, and we and many people find
these mysteries fascinating

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because a lot of people get
upset if they think a doctor

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made a poor decision or didn't
know what he was doing.

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But remembering that everybody's
just trying to figure stuff out.

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It's a practice.
We do the best we can.

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We narrow the things out that
are big, bad and serious and

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then try and figure it out from
there.

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But most things are explainable
these days.

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Even if we hadn't been able to
figure it out before, there

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might have been a tragic ending.
But as a whole, we've come so

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far and all these medical things
that we don't expect something

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completely unexplainable to
happen, right?

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I mean, how many things do you
know of?

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We hear things.
I remember when we were in

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nursing school, when I was in
nursing school, there was

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somebody that had spontaneously
combusted.

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And I believe that's one of the
topics we're going to bring up

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later, But they just
spontaneously combusted and

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they're like, what the heck?
How can that happen?

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Well, there was chain of things
that occurred to make it happen,

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but they ultimately understood
what had gone on.

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Again, we just mostly know
what's going on, at least to a

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main degree, so people don't die
from these really odd things.

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But this one, Gloria Ramirez,
isn't just odd, It's also still

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not fully explained.
There's a good idea of what

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happened, but they're not
positive.

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Anyway, Gloria entered Riverside
General Hospital looking for

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treatment.
And this was in 1994 on February

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19th, and she was 31 years old
at the time.

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She had gone into the hospital
because she hadn't been feeling

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well and had been having some
trouble with her breathing.

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And it was about 8:15 PM, so she
had transported by ambulance

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because she was concerned about
her deceleration into breathing

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or deceleration.
Anyway, she was having breathing

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difficulties and her heart felt
irregular and that sort of

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thing.
Over the past few days before

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that, she'd experienced nausea
and vomiting.

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But by the time she arrived at
the hospital, she was in clear

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stress.
She didn't know why.

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And just 45 minutes after she
entered the hospital, she was

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pronounced dead.
For a note, She also had a

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malignant and terminal cancer,
late state, late stage cervical

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cancer.
But that's not what she died of

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that night because the symptoms
she was having were very strange

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when she got in there and when
the EMS had picked her up, she

226
00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:53,920
was undergoing rapid heartbeat
and a drop in blood pressure.

227
00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,720
She could hardly breathe when
she was answering questions and

228
00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:00,120
she was incoherent.
And those are symptoms of a lack

229
00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:05,280
of oxygen, really, if if people
are incoherent, but they

230
00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:07,840
couldn't figure out why that she
looked fine.

231
00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,000
She looked OK.
All of her vitals, besides the

232
00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:14,360
breathing and the heart rate.
I mean, her labs are coming back

233
00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:15,720
normal.
Everything was normal.

234
00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:17,120
They couldn't figure out what
was wrong.

235
00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:21,960
So she started to crash.
So they went to do all the

236
00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:24,800
normal things.
They started her an IV.

237
00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:27,520
They gave her medications.
Then they were trying to get her

238
00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:30,240
vital signs back to normal and
nothing was working.

239
00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,000
Still had no idea why.
They wondered was she in some

240
00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,760
sort of overdose situation?
What's happening?

241
00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:38,240
But by then she was no longer
able to speak.

242
00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:40,400
And she had lived alone and she
had come in alone.

243
00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,000
So they had no one to speak to.
And I don't know if they at that

244
00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,600
point knew that she had a late
stage cervical cancer and was

245
00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:50,560
terminal or not.
I don't remember reading that

246
00:12:50,560 --> 00:12:53,080
they knew that at the time of
entry, but they just couldn't

247
00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:54,880
figure out why.
And you know, sometimes people

248
00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:56,880
come in and distress and nobody
does know why.

249
00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,320
Sometimes it turns out to be a
brain tour or something like

250
00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:01,800
that that just no one knew
about.

251
00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:05,000
But in this case, there was
nothing that they could see.

252
00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:08,920
She lost her pulse and she
needed or no, I'm excuse me, she

253
00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:10,640
was an irregular rhythm.
So she needed to be

254
00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:14,360
defibrillated.
So they took the electrodes and

255
00:13:14,560 --> 00:13:18,520
they put them on to put on her
and they noticed her skin was

256
00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:24,000
oily, like it had a Sheen to it.
Not only like acne, pre acne oil

257
00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:27,440
sort of stuff, but just like
they said, it looked like an oil

258
00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,240
slick, like you would see say in
the parking lot or something

259
00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:33,160
when it gets wet, you know that
kind of shiny thing and they

260
00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,560
couldn't figure it out.
They also noticed that they

261
00:13:35,560 --> 00:13:38,760
smelled fruity garlicky order
coming from her mouth.

262
00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:40,920
Those of us who listen to these
sorts of things and think about

263
00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:43,840
the sort of think, OK, garlic
fruit, what does that be?

264
00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:47,320
What could it be?
But they didn't really think too

265
00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,040
much about it because in these
moments, you don't have hours to

266
00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:51,600
ponder things.
You're like, huh, OK.

267
00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,200
And then moving on.
They also put a a syringe in her

268
00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:57,680
blood in her arm to take a blood
sample.

269
00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,280
And her blood smelled like
ammonia and there were Manila

270
00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:03,160
colored particles floating in
her blood.

271
00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:06,760
Now there's a picture of this,
and it was very odd.

272
00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:10,120
In the tube, I could see
floaters.

273
00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,840
And you and I have both drawn
blood before and I've never seen

274
00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,600
floaters.
And also it's always been some

275
00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:18,720
shade of red light, dark,
whatever.

276
00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,320
I mean, it's not, it's not
Manila, kind of a light brown

277
00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:26,400
color, blood with particles.
So I thought about this, that if

278
00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,600
they were visible in the tube,
the test tube, the blood was

279
00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:34,360
very clear.
It wasn't red like usual, at

280
00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:35,440
least when I looked at the
picture.

281
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:37,840
I mean who knows what it really
looked like, but that's what I

282
00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:40,480
saw in the picture.
So the doctor in charge that

283
00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:43,480
night looked at the blood sample
and greed that something wasn't

284
00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,400
right and it had nothing to do
with heart failure, which is

285
00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:48,080
what they were treating her for
at that moment.

286
00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:52,120
Suddenly one of the nurses
started to faint and then one of

287
00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,560
the other nurses developed
breathing problems and a third

288
00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:59,400
nerd nerd excuse me.
A third nurse passed out and

289
00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,080
when she awoke she wasn't able
to move her arms or legs and

290
00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:03,720
everyone's going what the heck
is going on?

291
00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:07,560
A total of 6 people that were
working on Ramirez had to stop

292
00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,560
because they were having strange
symptoms and they felt like it

293
00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:12,680
was related to the patient
because otherwise they have been

294
00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:14,440
fine and they had to leave the
room.

295
00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,800
More and more people noticed the
smell that she had but they

296
00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:20,440
still it didn't make any sense.
They didn't understand.

297
00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:24,880
They they left, left and other
people were in there and like I

298
00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:27,560
said, their symptoms were
raging, ranging.

299
00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:29,840
Gosh, I'm I need to put in a new
tongue.

300
00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:31,320
This one's not working very well
today.

301
00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:34,560
But the symptoms that these
staff members had had were

302
00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,600
ranging from fainting and
shortness to breath to nausea

303
00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,400
and temporary paralysis.
So, you know, Can you imagine

304
00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,040
still working on this lady and
all your friends and staff

305
00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:45,760
members are leaving the room
that you're having issues.

306
00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:47,600
Do you want to stay?
I don't think so.

307
00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:49,480
Do what's going on?
We have no idea.

308
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,320
Anyway, they were unable to save
Gloria.

309
00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:54,880
The Defibrillation didn't work,
none of the things they did were

310
00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:57,040
working.
And so she died, as I mentioned,

311
00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:00,000
within 45 minutes of arrival to
the hospital.

312
00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:04,520
And that wasn't the weirdest
part, is that it got weirder.

313
00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:07,520
They still had no idea what was
going on with her.

314
00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:10,640
So the hospital decided, the
staff decided that in order to

315
00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:14,360
handle her body, they sent in a
tip, a special team of hazmat

316
00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,840
people and hazmat suits.
These people in hazmat suits and

317
00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,440
from the team searched the ER
for any signs of a poison gas,

318
00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:24,960
toxic or other foreign
substances.

319
00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,040
They didn't find anything that
could suggest how the medical

320
00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:29,960
staff fainted.
And I'm sure at that point, they

321
00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,320
probably had already cleared the
ER because they didn't know what

322
00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:35,360
was going on.
And I think we've all seen shows

323
00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,800
where the ER has some sort of
threat and everybody goes away

324
00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:42,200
and, and all the logistics of
just taking people in the ER

325
00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:44,000
out.
Oh, gosh, I can't imagine.

326
00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:46,720
And then also trying to decide
it was any more of the hospital

327
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:48,800
affected, What's going on?
We have no idea.

328
00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:54,080
But they couldn't find any
explanation for this problem.

329
00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:58,560
So anyway, the the team took her
body, Gloria's body, and put it

330
00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,320
in a sealed aluminum casket
because they're hoping that

331
00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,839
would prevent the spread of
anything that might be there,

332
00:17:04,839 --> 00:17:06,720
even though they still had no
idea what it was.

333
00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:11,720
And they didn't do an autopsy
for almost a week because they

334
00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,440
were also still worried what is
the danger to the staff doing

335
00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:17,800
the autopsy.
And they were thinking maybe

336
00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,520
after a week, whatever it was
could have dissipated even

337
00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,280
though it was in a sealed box.
They just didn't know.

338
00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,400
So the autopsy happened in a
special sealed room which they

339
00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:28,319
use when there's a hazmat
situation.

340
00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:33,240
Staff was doing the autopsy in
the hazmat suits as well as a

341
00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:35,200
precaution.
I don't know.

342
00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:38,400
I didn't read whether or not
they still smelled anything

343
00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:40,280
funny with her.
She looked different at that

344
00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:42,240
point.
But after a week, I mean, I'm

345
00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:45,600
sure she was in a cooling place,
but after a week, she already

346
00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:50,720
has begun.
Fortunately, because of her

347
00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,160
emergency, they had blood
samples and things like that

348
00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,200
already that would have been
outside her body to be able to

349
00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:58,200
check.
The officials conducted 3

350
00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:00,760
autopsies.
I get, I don't know how that

351
00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:02,480
looks.
I mean, once a body's been

352
00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:05,520
autopsied, everything's out.
But maybe different providers

353
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,720
looked at the different things.
But one of the autopsies

354
00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:13,600
occurred at that weak point and
then one at six weeks and then

355
00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:18,000
one right before her burial,
which later on became kind of an

356
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,960
issue for her family, the whole
burial being delayed.

357
00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,120
But they just couldn't figure
out what was what was happening.

358
00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:27,320
And they were really, really
trying to find out.

359
00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:31,040
Her death was in February.
And the most thorough autopsy

360
00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:35,480
they talked about said it said
it happened on March 25th, which

361
00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:37,400
was more than a month after she
had died.

362
00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,520
The team concluded there were
signs of Tylenol, lidocaine,

363
00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:45,320
codeine and tigon in her system.
And tigon, I may be pronouncing

364
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,120
that incorrectly, but tigon I
believe is correct, is an anti

365
00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:52,360
nausea medication and it breaks
down into amines in the body.

366
00:18:52,360 --> 00:18:55,680
And what I read about this is
amines are related to ammonia,

367
00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,680
which can explain the ammonia
smell in her blood sample at

368
00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:00,800
the.
But then people go, OK, well

369
00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:04,160
how'd that all get into her?
When a person's in the ER and

370
00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,760
they're having emergency care,
there are certain types of

371
00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:09,480
medication that are given just
as a standard process.

372
00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:13,280
But also the staff in the
autopsy room would have known

373
00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:16,400
what is standard and they're
also had the Med sheet and she

374
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,080
would have seen what she had
been given.

375
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:22,640
But the thing that was most
interesting is the toxicology

376
00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:25,760
report said that Ramirez had
large amounts of dimethyl

377
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:27,880
sulfone in her blood and
tissues.

378
00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:31,800
And I'll call this DS so I can
pronounce it correctly.

379
00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:36,080
Occurs naturally in the human
body as it breaks down certain

380
00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:40,960
substances and once it enters
the body, it disappears quick,

381
00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,280
quickly with a half life of just
three days.

382
00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:48,080
And autopsy was a month later.
And there was so much of this DS

383
00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:50,600
and Ramirez system.
It's still registered at three

384
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,120
times the normal amount
following her death.

385
00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,600
So if it metabolizes in three
days and she still had three

386
00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:00,040
times the normal amount, and you
probably know, but these drugs

387
00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,960
and things will still break down
as the body deteriorates.

388
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:04,920
It will still metabolize, it
will still change.

389
00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:07,360
So it was still, these drugs
were still going.

390
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:11,080
Going through their natural
process of breakdown even as she

391
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:12,840
break her cells were breaking
down.

392
00:20:13,360 --> 00:20:16,600
Some people might argue that the
cells because of tissue death

393
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:18,680
and things like that, the cells
released more than they would

394
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:20,840
normally.
And even if that were true, it

395
00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:24,560
was still three times more than
what was appropriate after three

396
00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:27,120
weeks after her death, Excuse
me, not the death, but this

397
00:20:27,120 --> 00:20:32,600
last, this last autopsy on April
12th in 1994, county officials

398
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,120
announced that she died of heart
failure due to the kidney

399
00:20:35,120 --> 00:20:38,800
failure bought on brought on by
late stage cervical cancer.

400
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:43,920
And so and, and note to yourself
too, that Ramirez was diagnosed

401
00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,360
with cancer only six weeks
before her death, right?

402
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:50,760
She knew that she was dying from
the cancer because it was late

403
00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,360
stage cervical and and they had
already determined she was

404
00:20:53,360 --> 00:20:56,280
terminal, but she shouldn't have
died within six weeks.

405
00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:02,320
So it was very strange that way.
But the unusual substances,

406
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:06,520
except for the DS were so low in
her, her blood that it didn't

407
00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:10,080
explain why she died.
And even these elevated levels

408
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:13,400
of ammonia and DS didn't make
sense for why she died.

409
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:17,080
So the county officials were
holding her body because they

410
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,760
had to figure out what was going
on because if it came up again,

411
00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,240
they would know what was
happening.

412
00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:25,960
And in the interim, nobody else
came in like this.

413
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,120
So people, people were starting
to feel a little bit better.

414
00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:32,360
That was more an isolated event,
but it could have created a

415
00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:35,120
whole, it could have been a
whole issue if it was something

416
00:21:35,120 --> 00:21:37,160
that was other people were being
affected by.

417
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:40,880
At any rate, the county
officials kept her body for two

418
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:44,040
months before they released her
for a funeral because the

419
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:48,080
toxicity levels were so high.
And they had fears that people

420
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:50,920
would have more issues related
to this or maybe the staff

421
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,000
dealing with her body would have
more issues and such too.

422
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,520
And since they didn't have any
idea what caused it, they were

423
00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:59,880
just erring in what everyone
says in abundance of caution.

424
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,080
And I don't even know if it's an
abundance of caution.

425
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,280
I think I would have been
staying as far away from that as

426
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,080
I can as well.
But her family was really upset

427
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,040
because here was two months out
and they still haven't been able

428
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,160
to bury her.
They said it was because of

429
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,240
conditions, the hospital, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah.

430
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,480
But there was never anything
found about that, that there

431
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:19,360
were ever problems with the
hospital.

432
00:22:19,360 --> 00:22:22,360
And the family was upset for a
whole lot of obvious reasons,

433
00:22:22,360 --> 00:22:25,800
not the least of which is she
died suddenly in really weird

434
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:29,280
circumstances.
So they released her body.

435
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,320
And after that they still were
trying to investigate what the

436
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,240
heck happened because you can't
just brush this under the

437
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:36,840
carpet.
Oh, well, bummer, dude.

438
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,000
Because the staff was upset, the
staff is now understandably

439
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:42,720
nervous.
They don't know what's coming

440
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:43,920
in.
They don't know how to deal with

441
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:45,320
it.
They don't even know what

442
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:46,840
happened.
Also, one of the things they,

443
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,040
the staff and the hospital
administrators and all were

444
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:54,440
worried about having a mass
psychogenic illness triggered by

445
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:56,200
an odor.
Now, are you familiar with the

446
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,800
psychogenic illnesses?
Yeah, yeah, just they're like

447
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,200
same as kind of like a
psychosomatic.

448
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:07,000
So they're brought on by the
brain rather than actual

449
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,000
outside.
Forces, right, Right.

450
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:17,080
And when I was young and
pregnant with Joshua, I was

451
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,600
working for a company and we use
chemicals in the building and

452
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,320
there had been a a break in one
of the bottles of a chemical

453
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,800
that was very toxic.
And you have work it with a

454
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:29,560
company that works with some
companies that has some very

455
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,920
toxic chemicals.
But we we could smell it, but my

456
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:38,880
group was nowhere near where the
chemical actually spilled.

457
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,880
And we could smell it, but it
was not dangerous to us.

458
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,200
But they also weren't sure
because we shouldn't have been

459
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,000
able to smell it based on the
negative, positive or whatever

460
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,040
pressure is supposed to be
happening to keep things where

461
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:54,080
they don't spread.
So they evacuated all of us from

462
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,200
the building until they figured
out what had happened and where

463
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,640
it is spilled.
And while we were staying

464
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:02,400
outside, even the group of
people that were in my group,

465
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:04,400
we're starting to have some
symptoms.

466
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,120
And really, technically, they
should not have just from the

467
00:24:08,120 --> 00:24:10,040
smell of it, should not have
done anything.

468
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,480
And they actually sent everyone
who is pregnant home because

469
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,400
they just didn't know what was
happening.

470
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:21,040
And I'm like, yay.
And I never felt uncomfortable.

471
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:22,520
I never felt sick or anything
like that.

472
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,200
But four people out of the 12 I
worked with ended up going to

473
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,040
the hospital because they had
some symptoms of nausea,

474
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,680
vomiting, headaches and things
like that, that were probably

475
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,880
psychogenic, like you said.
It later turned out that no one

476
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,720
got injured or sick from this
particular chemical spill I was

477
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,120
talking about.
But lots and lots of people had

478
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:44,000
air quote symptoms because
mostly fear based.

479
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:45,840
They were afraid they were going
to get symptoms.

480
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,160
So they did.
And that's what the hospital was

481
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,440
worried about in this case was
that their staff would all get

482
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,040
sick just because they were
worried they were going to get

483
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:55,840
sick sick.
And then there would be hysteria

484
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,080
in the hospital and then some
odor might come around and they

485
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:00,960
get sick.
People outside the hospital get

486
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,440
sick, and they were just worried
about mass hysteria, too,

487
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,960
because if I went my home from
the hospital and I was a staff

488
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,280
member and I was sick because I
smelled ammonia, and now I go

489
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,480
home and somebody has ammonia in
the house, I get sick again.

490
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:15,800
My whole family gets sick
because I got sick.

491
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,960
Everybody back to the hospital,
nobody knows what's happening.

492
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,240
It was quite a situation.
And the medical staff at the

493
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,160
hospital urged the coroner's
office to take a closer look at

494
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:26,800
the file.
Please look some more, see if

495
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,760
you can figure anything else out
that could have been a problem.

496
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,040
And the assistant deputy
director, his name is Pat Grant,

497
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:38,840
made a startling conclusion.
Now, I like the way they phrase

498
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:40,480
this.
It's a startling conclusion.

499
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,600
And part of me wonders if he
made this conclusion because

500
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,600
something had to be made and he
wanted just move on with life.

501
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,120
Because there was no indication
that he, this is 2, probably 3

502
00:25:50,120 --> 00:25:53,320
months out at this point.
And no one else had any sort of

503
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,440
scenario like this.
Nobody else had come in, nothing

504
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,320
like that.
Probably at this point, people

505
00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,600
who were thinking of it
rationally versus emotionally

506
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:01,400
were probably realizing that it
was a one off.

507
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,240
They still don't know.
OK, mysteries happen, strange

508
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,680
things happen.
We'll chalk it up to we have no

509
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:11,360
idea.
Mr. Grant said that after

510
00:26:11,360 --> 00:26:16,040
talking with Mr. Mayor's family
and what they had experienced in

511
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,760
the hospital, she had covered
her skin from head to toe and

512
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:24,120
DMSO dimethyl cell phone as a
possible way to cure her late

513
00:26:24,120 --> 00:26:27,200
stage cervical cancer.
So it's one of those remedies

514
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:32,880
that is used outside the box, if
you will, outside of of regular

515
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,800
prescription or advice.
It was actually, DMSO was

516
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:41,600
actually named a toxic substance
in 1965 because it was one of

517
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,680
those things that came out like
some things came out in the

518
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,600
recent pandemic that were to be
used for something else and then

519
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,160
they were actually deemed to be
toxic for humans.

520
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,640
Or if not toxic, certainly not
doing what it was that they

521
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,960
wanted it to do.
In this case, DMSO was ruled as

522
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:02,920
a toxic substance and the reason
she was using it was because in

523
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:07,760
the 60s DMSO was all the rage as
a cure all.

524
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:09,720
You know oh you, this and
you'll.

525
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,720
It'll cure everything from warts
to Ms. Who.

526
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:18,840
Knows I was like cocaine.
And later, you know, and I don't

527
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,080
think people necessarily do
these things because they want

528
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:22,840
to be nefarious.
They just think it could work.

529
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:24,080
But then everyone starts doing
it.

530
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,520
People believe that DMSO could
relieve pain and reduce anxiety.

531
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,400
Athletes would rub DMSO cream on
their skin to relieve aches and

532
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,760
muscles.
And it was just the thing.

533
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,920
It was the the deal of the day.
But then they did some studies

534
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:42,200
and that showed that mice who
had DMSO had their eyesight

535
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,560
going and they had other side
effects and problems.

536
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,880
That how did they know the eyes
that mice have their eyesight

537
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,000
going?
Do they have a little mouse eye

538
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,000
chart?
Eye chart, is it 8 or is it one

539
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:57,240
cheese or two cheeses?
That's right, I think so.

540
00:27:57,360 --> 00:28:00,480
Gosh, if a mouse could do better
than the eye test than I feel

541
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:05,240
like I do One or two, two or
three, I don't know.

542
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,040
They know what looks good
anyway.

543
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,440
So yeah, probably they did all
of those things for the mice or

544
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:12,960
mice just started running into
stuff.

545
00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:17,000
And anyway, that's pretty funny.
The fat of DS.

546
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,320
DMSO stopped because it was
considered a toxic substance.

547
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,560
It was harder to get and there
are some I read.

548
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:25,920
Oh yeah, here, here's something
that I had read.

549
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,880
DMSO still had an underground
falling following as a cure all

550
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:34,400
for many types of ailments.
But by the 1970's, the only way

551
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,720
to get it was as a degreaser in
hardware stores.

552
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,840
So people were taking this
degreaser and using it and

553
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,320
rubbing it on their bodies.
And part of me is thinking,

554
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:45,200
gosh, this must have smelled
really great too.

555
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:49,640
So they had this degreaser that
had the DMSO and with what they

556
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:53,240
were putting in it, the stuff
that came in the degreasers, the

557
00:28:53,240 --> 00:29:00,360
DMSO was 99% pure as opposed to
the way it was prepared prior to

558
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,320
being in the degreaser.
Now I don't know what it did in

559
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,240
the degreaser, I don't know what
it had to do with anything, but

560
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,360
clearly is some sort of solvent
I guess.

561
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,080
Yeah.
I mean, I would be really

562
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,320
worried that that like mechanics
or whatever would be degreasing

563
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,600
their hands with with that,
right?

564
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:18,560
So that's like nerve racking to
me.

565
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,680
Yes, well, I think go a lot of
different directions and I think

566
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,360
that might be one one reason
mechanics wear gloves now more

567
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:26,920
instead of using all that kind
of crap.

568
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,760
But if you think about it, not
only was it 99% pure as opposed

569
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,640
to a less concentrated that came
in the over the counter rub, it

570
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,920
was also carried by whatever
else was in the degreaser.

571
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,360
Can you imagine?
I mean, all those chemicals and

572
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,040
stuff that must have been in
that people were using it as

573
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,720
their catch all and their whole
kind of air quotes.

574
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,240
Home remedy.
And I am all about home remedies

575
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:52,320
for a lot of things, but also I
think there are things that are

576
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,400
not used for really good
reasons.

577
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,240
And also I don't think a home
remedy is a cure for everything.

578
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,080
So there's got to be a balance
in my opinion.

579
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:04,640
When this doctor Grant looked up
what happened to DSDMSO when it

580
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,320
was exposed to oxygen, he said
he had a revelation.

581
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:09,840
I don't know how he looks at how
that was exposed.

582
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,200
I don't know if there were
studies or whatever, but when

583
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,720
the vapor gets into the bodies,
so they put this chemical on

584
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:20,800
their skin, then it's exposed to
oxygen and then then becomes can

585
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,520
become a vapor.
And so even if the person is

586
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,000
putting on their skin, they're
still breathing, right?

587
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:30,320
So this vapor is being inhaled
and it can cause convulsions,

588
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:34,640
delirium and paralysis.
And of the 20 symptoms described

589
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,520
by the medical staff that night,
19 of them matched symptoms of

590
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,480
people who have been exposed to
dimethyl sulfate vapors.

591
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,840
And so that's interesting too.
One of the things though, I

592
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:49,280
don't know if you heard I the
dimethyl sulfate because it

593
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,600
changes forms as it's exposed to
different substances or

594
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,440
situations.
So when it's exposed to oxygen

595
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,360
becomes dimethyl sulfate, which
is different.

596
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,640
But one of the things that Grant
decided is the staff did not

597
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,360
suffer from mass hysteria or
stress.

598
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:08,240
Well, they might have had
stress, but they didn't.

599
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:09,720
This isn't why they had those
symptoms.

600
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,760
They suffer from dimethyl
sulfate poisoning.

601
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,720
It's the most accepted reason
about why this sort of thing

602
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,720
happened and his theory really
adds up to the facts.

603
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:24,920
So the facts were that she had
the DMSO cream and they saw it

604
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,280
on her skin.
So remember oily Sheen?

605
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,520
If it was in the form of a
degreaser, it would be in some

606
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:34,040
sort of carrier oil, which is
probably a petroleum in a

607
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:37,400
degreaser situation.
When it was over the counter and

608
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,880
they were they were selling it
as a a regular cream to apply.

609
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,320
I'm sure it was in something
less toxic than a petroleum,

610
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,320
like an unprocessed petroleum
may still have been a Vaseline,

611
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,280
which is a petroleum product,
but it's processed differently

612
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,000
and it's not relatum.
There you go and it's not toxic

613
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,640
anymore, hopefully.
So they saw the oil on the skin

614
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,960
and then also to explain the
fruity garlicky order come odor

615
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,200
coming from her mouth.
She had inhaled the vapors as

616
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,240
well because she had put it on
herself and as it was exposed to

617
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,360
oxygen it started to vaporize
and not all of it did but some

618
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,200
of it did.
But at that point they named her

619
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,960
the toxic lady because she used
the DMSO and she was just trying

620
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,560
to relieve her pain from her
cancer and she may have even

621
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,280
been trying to cure cancer with
it but nobody really knows.

622
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,960
What's interesting though is her
family denied that she was using

623
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,880
DMSO.
However, when people went back,

624
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,760
when police went back to check
because when somebody dies from

625
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,240
something weird and sudden, the
their homes are checked into or

626
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,040
something in the house.
And whether it's hazmat people

627
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:46,240
or police or whoever, they found
DMSO under her bathroom sink.

628
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,760
But really, no matter how this
case is looked at, it's really

629
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,480
sad all around.
She found that she had cancer

630
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:53,760
too late to do anything about
it.

631
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:59,120
And when she was not able to get
any help from her doctors

632
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,800
because it was too late to do
anything about it, she turned in

633
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:06,280
to this kind of air quote remedy
to try and get some relief.

634
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,960
And it.
And in the end, it's what killed

635
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,720
her faster than the cancer would
have.

636
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,640
But the story doesn't end there.
Oh, great.

637
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,120
Yeah.
And one of the things that with

638
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:23,880
further testing, which I'll go
into here in a minute, that they

639
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:28,880
found out that this DMSO also
when it's applied to the skin

640
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:33,280
and then the electrodes were
attached to the skin, it also

641
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:37,080
activated in a different way and
it released more of its chemical

642
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,960
compounds, which hurt the staff
as well.

643
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,680
And it would hurt Gloria too.
But then she had already died,

644
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:45,840
so at that point was not a
problem.

645
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:50,200
But one of the things that I
wanted to ask you is if you were

646
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,680
in the hospital that day, if you
were an ER nurse and you saw

647
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,200
people dropping around you, what
would you do?

648
00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:01,160
I would like to think that I
would call the hazmat team, but

649
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,520
I know I can tell you from my
personality that I would

650
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,240
continue to work on the patient
and be stubborn about it.

651
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,600
But you'd be grabbing your PPO,
right?

652
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:11,600
Yeah, for sure.
PPE.

653
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,639
I mean PPO.
Yeah, Personal protective

654
00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:17,719
equipment, yes, yeah.
And I'd probably, yeah.

655
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,800
I mean, like I'd, I'd probably
throw on a yellow gown, just

656
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:22,120
whatever I could find in the
moment.

657
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,000
But I would like to think I'd
call the hazmat team, although I

658
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,440
don't know if I'd think of it
because, I mean, I don't know,

659
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,880
with the chemical smell.
I I might think about it or

660
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,159
think of it.
I mean, yeah, that's good

661
00:34:33,159 --> 00:34:34,040
question.
What about you?

662
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,639
Yeah, I think I would definitely
think of it that we'd need to

663
00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:41,360
call somebody to check into it
because that was just wrong on a

664
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:43,960
lot of levels.
I don't think with other people

665
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,199
getting sick and things like
that, that it could just be

666
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:50,639
pushed under the rug because it
could have been especially

667
00:34:50,639 --> 00:34:53,480
looking at it from a lens today,
you know, you've got, we know

668
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,400
there's so many things out there
that people can be attacked with

669
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,840
biohazard sort of things,
chemical warfare, all that sort

670
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:02,920
of things that they weren't as
familiar with in the 60s that I

671
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:04,760
think it would be one of the
first things that came to my

672
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:06,800
mind if something was really
weird like that.

673
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:11,120
Now one of the things, and like
you said, I can't imagine not

674
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,080
working on the patient.
It's you just got to keep going.

675
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,560
And I think part of my thought
would be, well, I've been

676
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,240
exposed as much as these people
who just passed out and I

677
00:35:19,240 --> 00:35:23,200
haven't, so maybe I'm fine.
And you know, cause a lot of

678
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:27,600
nurses, myself included, figure
if I wake up alive, I'm fine.

679
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:29,480
Everything's fine.
Yeah, everything's fine.

680
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:30,840
No worries.
What?

681
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:32,040
Your head's on fire.
Well, I'm alive.

682
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:33,880
It's OK as everything's fine,
everything's fine.

683
00:35:34,240 --> 00:35:37,720
And you know, most nurses are
either I'm everything is fine or

684
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:39,320
Oh my goodness, I have a paper
cut.

685
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,080
I'm pretty sure I'm going to get
typhoid, which is not related to

686
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:44,040
paper cuts, but still, it's
probably going to happen to me,

687
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,360
you know.
But one of the things that is

688
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,840
interesting to me about this is
similar types of cases.

689
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,680
The one I talked to you about
with work is the mass hysteria.

690
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,480
That was literally the first
thing everybody thought was the

691
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,600
problem and they were worried.
And there's another case that

692
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:02,880
I'm going to go over in future
about an incident they thought

693
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:04,560
was mass hysteria at first as
well.

694
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,080
There's been several times, I
remember when we did the Dancing

695
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:10,520
Plague, they thought it was mass
hysteria at first because

696
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:12,640
everyone was going to wack a
doodle it looked like.

697
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,000
And there were some reasons for
it, but that was still basically

698
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,280
unexplained.
These things are unexplained,

699
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,280
but one of the things when I
said that they had multiple

700
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,760
ideas of what might have
happened in the hospital.

701
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,280
This is a great, a great idea of
what they think might happen

702
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,280
have happened.
They, and I'm not even sure who

703
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:34,040
they are.
Somebody said, oh, I think the

704
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,920
hospital is producing
methamphetamines and that's why

705
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:41,120
that's why the chemicals are
there and that's why she was

706
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:43,880
toxic, because somewhere,
somewhere in the hospital,

707
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,560
methamphetamines were being
illegally produced.

708
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:50,320
And then what happened is
somebody had taken these illegal

709
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,680
substances and they put them
into the IV bags and they were

710
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:57,040
smuggling them that way.
And somehow Gloria got one that

711
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,440
was having full of
methamphetamines and that's why

712
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,440
she got sick and that's why the
chemical happened and that's why

713
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,840
the staff got sick.
It's like what?

714
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,720
Wow sense.
But yeah, it's easy to go down

715
00:37:09,720 --> 00:37:11,160
these rabbit holes.
I mean, I made it sound

716
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:13,840
dramatic, but really, it would
be easy to go down a rabbit hole

717
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:15,240
when you're trying to figure
stuff out.

718
00:37:15,240 --> 00:37:17,000
Right?
And how many things have we

719
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,000
talked about off mic?
And also one of the things we

720
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:24,040
talked about on was nurses who
have killed people.

721
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,360
And so maybe somebody really did
intentionally do something like

722
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,880
that, but probably not because
they were doing a meth lab in

723
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:32,040
the middle of the hospital
somewhere.

724
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,360
I mean, where could they do it
that no one would look right?

725
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,640
There's nowhere.
And if you watch things like

726
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,640
house and other stuff like that,
those shows you couldn't even do

727
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,440
it in in a cleaning closet
because someone's always having

728
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,160
sex in there.
So I mean, you know, you

729
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:50,240
couldn't possibly possibly get
in there for that.

730
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:55,840
Anyway, that theory was debunked
and I'm not even sure they

731
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:57,440
totally looked into the
hospital.

732
00:37:57,720 --> 00:38:01,800
But one of the things as I was
mentioning dimethyl sulfate, the

733
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,840
last explanation, which is the
one that they really agree with

734
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:10,840
with the DMSO theory is it's
still kind of complicated and it

735
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,880
would require some specific
various variables to occur at a

736
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,200
time.
But it looks like they actually

737
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,040
may have occurred.
The Livermore National

738
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:23,400
Laboratory, which found the DMSO
or the dimethyl cell phone in

739
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:28,600
her blood sounded like you said,
cell phone, dimethyl cell phone,

740
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:35,080
ring, ring, pardon my
pronunciation, but the Livermore

741
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:36,840
National Laboratory found it in
her blood.

742
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:40,520
And they, those were the ones
that proposed the DMSO theory.

743
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:43,800
Because here's what I'm going to
read this because I'm not going

744
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,560
to be able to say this correctly
without getting all goofy, but

745
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:49,960
the Livermore lab said that
these are the things that had to

746
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,320
have occurred for Glaria Ramirez
to become the toxic lady.

747
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:57,440
First step, she uses DMSO, which
is a solvent as I mentioned, and

748
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:01,400
folk remedy for cancer pain.
OK, Then she had a urinary

749
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:05,560
blockage and during that urinary
blockage, the DMSO builds up in

750
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:07,400
her bloodstream.
Step 2.

751
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:10,360
Step three.
Oxygen given by the paramedics

752
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:15,720
in the ambulance converts the
DMSO to DMSO 2, which is

753
00:39:15,720 --> 00:39:17,840
dimethyl cell phone, not cell
phone.

754
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:22,200
Step 4.
When her blood was drawn, DMSO 2

755
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:26,200
crystallized in the blood.
Step next 5.

756
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:30,040
I think that ran out of fingers.
The shock of defibrillator

757
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:34,680
converts the DMSO 2 to the
dangerous DMSO 4 dimethyl

758
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:39,560
sulfate gas, and then the
dimethyl sulfate affects the

759
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:41,720
hospital staff and causes
sickness.

760
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:44,720
So yeah, it's a multi step
process.

761
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:48,400
But the Livermore lab says all
of those things were present

762
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:50,880
though.
And would it ever happen again

763
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:55,040
in that same cascade of events?
Probably not.

764
00:39:55,440 --> 00:40:00,080
But that's what they think took
her to that space.

765
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,280
And you know, Doctor Grant had
already decided that it was

766
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:05,440
probably DMSO, but he didn't
know all the chemical

767
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:07,840
relationships of it.
But really, each one of those

768
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:11,320
steps makes sense that she
reached each one of those.

769
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:14,560
They hadn't talked about the
urinary blockage and the things

770
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:16,840
I read, but they probably found
it on autopsy.

771
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:20,200
That's what happened.
And also something had to have

772
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,480
put that in her bloodstream
because if I think about it.

773
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:28,280
Even if she was applying this
DMSO constantly, it seems like

774
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:31,000
it would be very difficult to
have reached three times the

775
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:35,640
level of what would be expected
to find in someone.

776
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:40,000
But I mean, if you're enough
pain, I imagine, I imagine it

777
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,400
could happen, but still it would
have been a lot.

778
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:46,840
And then as it decreases over
days, literal days for half life

779
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:49,560
in most cases.
Seems like even if she had been

780
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,000
exposed to what would be
considered air quote normal

781
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,680
level of the stuff that no one
should be taking, then it seems

782
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:59,960
like it would have metabolized
out before it was found on

783
00:40:59,960 --> 00:41:02,960
autopsy because that the first
autopsy was still 3 weeks.

784
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:06,680
You do the math anyway.
But but it's going to it seems

785
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:10,320
like it would have come out all
of these things and and there

786
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,920
were other sort of crazy ideas
of what could have happened.

787
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:18,800
But I thought that the whole
methamphetamine amphetamine lab

788
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,040
was my favorite.
Yeah, yeah.

789
00:41:21,240 --> 00:41:25,280
Anyways, that's the story of
Gloria Ramirez, the toxic lady.

790
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:31,040
And I think that with the drugs
and things that are available in

791
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:35,880
the world, there are people that
come into the ER full of bags of

792
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,280
heroin and cocaine because they
swallowed as a mule.

793
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:40,640
They swallowed the the bags and
they go in.

794
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:44,520
And I was reading a story
recently about this was actually

795
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,840
a novel, but it could it could
happen pretty easily where

796
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,400
somebody was running away from.
It was actually not a law

797
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:53,200
enforcement officer, but they
were running away from someone

798
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,520
who who wants to kill them.
They got shot and fell down dead

799
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:59,240
and they're like, they didn't
even get shot where it would

800
00:41:59,240 --> 00:42:01,040
have made them fall down dead
right away.

801
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:03,800
But what had happened in the
story, and I think this could

802
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,400
happen in real life too, is the
bags were punctured and they.

803
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:09,840
Suddenly released into a system.
That's how one of my friends

804
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:12,600
died.
Actually had a cop came, he had

805
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:17,120
balloons of heroin and decided
to swallow them and they broke

806
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:19,160
and he died.
So that's that is real life.

807
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:20,920
Yeah.
Oh, I know, I know.

808
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:22,680
It happens all the time.
I mean, I know it happens when

809
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:24,640
they swallow them and they
break, but the fact that they

810
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:29,160
got shot or had got, I mean,
what if a drug thing went bad

811
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,640
and somebody got hit with a
knife, you know, if they got

812
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,480
stabbed is what that's called.
I'm like, here is a knife,

813
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:39,240
What's that called?
Yeah, take the knife and yeah,

814
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:43,080
poke them.
Anyway, I'm I'm a professional

815
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:47,640
Knifer and.
But things like that can happen.

816
00:42:47,720 --> 00:42:52,120
And I know I've seen things that
were true at border patrols

817
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:56,440
where people had come in with
sketchy bags that weighed wrong

818
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,920
or for what looked like it was
in it or something happened.

819
00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:02,360
And I was watching one, I can't
remember what it's called, but

820
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:06,040
it's, it's one of those reality
TV things where it's the Border

821
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:09,480
Patrol folks that, and this guy
was sitting there, his bag was

822
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:11,320
being gone through and they
found some drugs in the bag.

823
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:15,320
And he was, this guy was
becoming progressively agitated

824
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:19,560
and not agitated like, oh, I'm
in trouble, but agitated just in

825
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,280
weird ways.
And then he became diaphoretic,

826
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:25,560
which is funny for those who
aren't aware of diaphoretic.

827
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:29,640
It's cold sweats.
Yes, and he was looking really

828
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:32,000
sketchy and he was getting all
pale and they're like, what's

829
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:33,320
going on?
Are you OK?

830
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,240
I'm fine, I'm fine.
He had also swallowed some.

831
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,440
And because they had been in,
they're only designed to be in

832
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:43,680
the body for X period of time.
And granted it is plastic, but

833
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,600
sometimes, like we said, they
could break, they could get hung

834
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:48,520
up somehow.
Maybe he had done it before and

835
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,360
one was still in it.
No, but whatever happened, he

836
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:54,720
had had a bag break in his
intestines and it was starting

837
00:43:54,720 --> 00:43:57,520
to leach into his the system.
And so that's what he was

838
00:43:57,520 --> 00:43:59,160
experiencing.
And they ended up having to take

839
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:01,880
him to the hospital and he had
to have surgery to remove these

840
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:05,080
because they were all throughout
his intestinal system and they

841
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:08,640
had to pull them all out.
And he actually almost died even

842
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,440
after all of that because so
much had gone in a system like

843
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,600
your friend, but your friend
didn't get saved in time and

844
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:16,680
things like that.
Though when we bring it back to

845
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:20,480
this story where when people in
ER who are the people who see

846
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:22,960
these folks first after police
and EMS.

847
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:26,960
But in those situations, the
process hasn't continued very

848
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,440
far.
But then if you're in the ER and

849
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:31,960
say you're doing a stomach pump
or something like that and the

850
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:35,200
stuff comes out and you don't
know what it is, that's scary.

851
00:44:35,240 --> 00:44:39,040
I mean, I, I assisted someone
with taking activated charcoal,

852
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:40,440
but we knew what she had
ingested.

853
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:42,840
So what came out was what had
gone in.

854
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:45,640
It was not scary.
And it was also a controlled

855
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:47,000
circumstance and blah, blah,
blah.

856
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:50,280
But in the ER, they don't know
what's happening.

857
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:54,320
And it would be so easy to
create a situation that would be

858
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,640
fatal for so many people.
Anyway, I just, I just found

859
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:01,960
this a really interesting story
and a cautionary tale to, if

860
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:05,560
something is not legal to use
and you're wanting to use it in

861
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:09,440
a way that is not recommended by
professional people who know

862
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:11,920
what they're talking about,
please don't.

863
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:13,960
Please don't.
Because there are reasons for

864
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:16,400
that.
And that's not for some of the

865
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:18,240
reasons some people think
necessarily.

866
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,960
But if it's a safety issue, just
don't.

867
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:25,120
There are other choices, other
things to do, and I can

868
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:27,480
understand being desperate and
wanting something different.

869
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:31,640
But please, people have studied
these chemicals and toxic things

870
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:35,480
and if it's meant to be used on
a different kind of being or on

871
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:40,680
a piece of machinery, please
don't ingest them.

872
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:45,800
Put it on your body, shoot it up
into your veins or doing things.

873
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,520
There's just, there's just so
many other possibilities that

874
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:52,560
are are tried and true.
And I will just leave it at

875
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:53,280
that.
Cool.

876
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:55,880
Great story.
Yeah, I thought it was

877
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,600
fascinating and I don't ever
want to be called the toxic lady

878
00:45:58,600 --> 00:45:59,920
for any.
Reason I know that's such a

879
00:45:59,920 --> 00:46:03,680
bummer.
What a legacy, right?

880
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:07,560
And I feel for her family, too,
having had to wait three months

881
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:13,640
to have A, any resolution, which
still wasn't any, and, B, that

882
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:17,520
her sister, friend, family
member, whatever, was just being

883
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:20,840
held under suspicion of being a
toxic weapon.

884
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:23,440
And so that would be really
hard.

885
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:24,840
Yeah.
And as you know, here's my

886
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:25,840
legacy.
What was mine?

887
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:27,640
Oh, I was a toxic lady, and I
killed people.

888
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:31,600
Luckily she didn't kill anybody,
but she made people sick.

889
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:33,760
My very existence made people
sick.

890
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:37,360
I know that would be really bad.
Although I have to say that as

891
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:39,880
one of the nurses, if I were one
of the nurses that had passed

892
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:42,360
out or had the temporary
paralysis, I'd be going, oh, I'm

893
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:45,160
so glad I'm not just crazy
crazy, because that would have

894
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:46,960
been a thing too, wouldn't it?
Where you going?

895
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:50,440
I don't even know what happened
here, but I would.

896
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:53,320
I would definitely hang my hat
on this DMSO theory because it's

897
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:54,880
the one that wraps it up with a
nice little bow.

898
00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:59,640
I like nice little bows.
I saw that picture of the blood

899
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:01,640
draw.
It looks like it just looks like

900
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:04,200
it's super, super separated.
Yeah.

901
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:06,680
Like they've already spun it,
you know, like.

902
00:47:06,720 --> 00:47:08,680
Right, because it looked like
those flakes were in.

903
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:10,720
What?
To my eye it looked like it was

904
00:47:10,720 --> 00:47:14,480
in suspended in plasma.
Yes, exactly.

905
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:15,920
That's exactly what I think it
looks like.

906
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:20,400
Yeah, because the red was gone.
And that's why I thought the

907
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:22,320
same thing, that it wasn't just
straight out of her arm.

908
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:24,560
But that was when it came
straight out of her arm, from

909
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:26,840
what I read.
Isn't it wild?

910
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:30,080
Yeah.
And so just basically, it sounds

911
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:33,440
like the stuff was just breaking
down her body just in all kinds

912
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:34,240
of ways.
Yeah.

913
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:37,480
So anyway, don't do it.
Don't do it.

914
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:39,640
Thank you.
All right.

915
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:42,560
If you've made it this far,
clearly you like little mayhem

916
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:44,960
with your medicine.
Or you just enjoy hearing us

917
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:46,800
ramble about weird medical
mysteries.

918
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:48,680
Either way, we'd love you for
it.

919
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:51,560
So hit that follow or subscribe
button wherever you're

920
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:53,520
listening.
And toss us a rating or review

921
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:56,520
while you're at it.
Helps other curious weirdos find

922
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:59,200
the show.
And we know there are a lot of

923
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:01,320
you out there.
Oh so many.

924
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:03,720
Come join the chaos.
Thanks for listening to

925
00:48:03,720 --> 00:48:06,840
Medicine, Mystery, mayhem, and
sometimes Murder.

926
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:09,920
Do you have an idea for an
episode of this podcast?

927
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:13,440
I just want to say hi.
You can get in touch with us at

928
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:21,760
our M4 pod.
That's OURM the #4pod@gmail.com.

929
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:26,280
We read every e-mail, and
sometimes we even respond just

930
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:29,040
like real professionals.
Because we are.

931
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:33,960
Old friends with new twists and
lots of body bags.